The Day of the Lord, will the church be raptured?

[ENOCH2010]

Revelation 6 vs 9, The group under the alter are waiting for this group to join them. Then the second coming, there is no pre-trib rapture to get the church to heaven.

[Salty]

True,  my concern is for their discouragement levels during the persecution of the great tribulation. Its going to be tough enough to endure that short 3.5 year period, but to start off with a huge disappointment that there's no pre-trib rapture would be pretty disappointing. Maybe the antichrist fakes a rapture too, to really make us feel left behind and alone. Its best to stay close to Christians during that time so even if church meetings stop occurring through being made illegal gatherings, we can still encourage eachother for that 3.5 years. After all we are not judged based on our deeds, but based on faith. If we rely on Jesus to save our souls, we need never fear being left behind, and if we find ourselves still here, that's ok because though our bodies may be persecuted we will still partake of the resurrection because of what Jesus did, not through our works.  

 

 

For those deceived by the pseudo-Messiah, what persecution? I don't think many understand how God's Word shows what the tribulation will be like.

 

For believers on Christ Jesus, there will two camps, those who are deceived with the rest of the world into believing the pseudo-Messiah is God having returned, or those of us who do not fall away to that deception and are thus persecuted... by the deceived.

 

Ideas that the great tribulation will be all out war to kill all Christians is a myth. Even the idea that it will involve any literal wars is a myth and is not Biblical. It will be a time of world peace, the peace the globalists have been preparing the world for under their one world government with that pseudo-Messiah setup as king in Jerusalem; not a king of the types of past history, but a god-king imitating Christ The King.

 

I must refer yet again to the level of deception that pseudo-Christ is to work per our Lord's words in Matt.24:23-26. He revealed that pseudo-Christ will work great signs and wonders on earth so powerful in deception that it would almost deceive His own very elect. What level of deceptive power would almost deceive His very elect, if possible? Certainly not any kind of power that flesh man has had in this world to date.

 

Once the deceived see the great signs, wonders, and miracles that pseudo-Christ will do, they will fall to him like honey bees to the queen bee. And those deceived will be zealous for him, even to the persecution of the saints who refuse him. This is what the "hour of temptation" will really be about in that time, a tribulation for the deceived spiritually, and a tribulation of physical persecution for the saints who remain faithful waiting for Christ. The only ones who will be hated in that time will be those of us who remain standing waiting for our Lord Jesus' return to end that time.

 

This means in that time even the majority in the Churches will hate those of us who make that stand for Christ and give His Testimony against the pseudo-Christ. This is how some of us who stand will be delivered up to councils and synagogues to give that witness for Christ during the tribulation, even by our own family and friends that are deceived (Mark 13:11-13). So if you know in your heart, mind, and soul from God and His Word that the first coming Messiah will be a fake, and that our True Lord Jesus Christ only returns after that Antichrist's working, then this is the stand we are to be prepared for in Christ to the end of it. It is the "evil day" Apostle Paul talked about in Ephesians 6.

 

Will the pseudo-Christ cause some event to fulfill the pre-trib rapture deception? I think so, yes. At the end of Luke 17 our Lord Jesus revealed those 'taken' being about the deceived, being as a dead carcase wheresoever the eagles are gathered. Will the pseudo-Christ proclaim their preachers made a mistake with the idea of 'flying away', and tell them to trek to Jerusalem? Possibly, because in that time there will not be a sudden change at the twinkling of an eye like Apostle Paul taught. So some idea must be created by the pseudo-Christ and his ministers to replace that event. As a matter of fact, this is one way we can easily know the pseudo-Christ that comes first is a fake, and not our Lord Jesus at all, for we will not have been changed to our "spiritual body" type. We will still be in our present flesh type bodies of today during the tribulation.

[iamlamad]

Lamad the great multitude John saw in heaven is being added to daily, every time a Christian dies, part of him goes to be with the Lord. This great multitude wasn't raptured to heaven as a group, they go there upon their death.  

Wow! Says Enoch, who was raptured! If ANYONE should get this right, it should be you. You are simply mistaken. John saw this great crowd in heaven right after where Paul tells us his rapture takes place. This great group is most certainly the raptured bride of Christ, raptured just before the events of the 6th seal. The great earthquake at the 6th seal is Paul's "sudden destruction." This earthquake will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. It will be THE SIGN that the Day of His wrath has come," just as John wrote. The rapture is the TRIGGER for the Day of the Lord.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

 

True,  my concern is for their discouragement levels during the persecution of the great tribulation. Its going to be tough enough to endure that short 3.5 year period, but to start off with a huge disappointment that there's no pre-trib rapture would be pretty disappointing. Maybe the antichrist fakes a rapture too, to really make us feel left behind and alone. Its best to stay close to Christians during that time so even if church meetings stop occurring through being made illegal gatherings, we can still encourage eachother for that 3.5 years. After all we are not judged based on our deeds, but based on faith. If we rely on Jesus to save our souls, we need never fear being left behind, and if we find ourselves still here, that's ok because though our bodies may be persecuted we will still partake of the resurrection because of what Jesus did, not through our works.  

 

 

For those deceived by the pseudo-Messiah, what persecution? I don't think many understand how God's Word shows what the tribulation will be like.

 

For believers on Christ Jesus, there will two camps, those who are deceived with the rest of the world into believing the pseudo-Messiah is God having returned, or those of us who do not fall away to that deception and are thus persecuted... by the deceived.

 

Ideas that the great tribulation will be all out war to kill all Christians is a myth. Even the idea that it will involve any literal wars is a myth and is not Biblical. It will be a time of world peace, the peace the globalists have been preparing the world for under their one world government with that pseudo-Messiah setup as king in Jerusalem; not a king of the types of past history, but a god-king imitating Christ The King.

 

I must refer yet again to the level of deception that pseudo-Christ is to work per our Lord's words in Matt.24:23-26. He revealed that pseudo-Christ will work great signs and wonders on earth so powerful in deception that it would almost deceive His own very elect. What level of deceptive power would almost deceive His very elect, if possible? Certainly not any kind of power that flesh man has had in this world to date.

 

Once the deceived see the great signs, wonders, and miracles that pseudo-Christ will do, they will fall to him like honey bees to the queen bee. And those deceived will be zealous for him, even to the persecution of the saints who refuse him. This is what the "hour of temptation" will really be about in that time, a tribulation for the deceived spiritually, and a tribulation of physical persecution for the saints who remain faithful waiting for Christ. The only ones who will be hated in that time will be those of us who remain standing waiting for our Lord Jesus' return to end that time.

 

This means in that time even the majority in the Churches will hate those of us who make that stand for Christ and give His Testimony against the pseudo-Christ. This is how some of us who stand will be delivered up to councils and synagogues to give that witness for Christ during the tribulation, even by our own family and friends that are deceived (Mark 13:11-13). So if you know in your heart, mind, and soul from God and His Word that the first coming Messiah will be a fake, and that our True Lord Jesus Christ only returns after that Antichrist's working, then this is the stand we are to be prepared for in Christ to the end of it. It is the "evil day" Apostle Paul talked about in Ephesians 6.

 

Will the pseudo-Christ cause some event to fulfill the pre-trib rapture deception? I think so, yes. At the end of Luke 17 our Lord Jesus revealed those 'taken' being about the deceived, being as a dead carcase wheresoever the eagles are gathered. Will the pseudo-Christ proclaim their preachers made a mistake with the idea of 'flying away', and tell them to trek to Jerusalem? Possibly, because in that time there will not be a sudden change at the twinkling of an eye like Apostle Paul taught. So some idea must be created by the pseudo-Christ and his ministers to replace that event. As a matter of fact, this is one way we can easily know the pseudo-Christ that comes first is a fake, and not our Lord Jesus at all, for we will not have been changed to our "spiritual body" type. We will still be in our present flesh type bodies of today during the tribulation.

 

Revelation 13:8

And all the inhabitants of the earth will fall down in adoration and pay him homage, everyone whose name has not been recorded in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] from the foundation of the world.

 

Believers whose names are written in heaven will NOT BE deceived.

 

It is not God's will for ANY of His kids to suffer through His wrath, but rather ESCAPE all these things. That is why He will NOT set any appointments with His wrath. Why in the world would ANYONE want to set their OWN appointments?

 

HIS WILL is that we all obey Luke 21:36.

 

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

Revelation 6 vs 9, The group under the alter are waiting for this group to join them. Then the second coming, there is no pre-trib rapture to get the church to heaven.

Enoch, this is just MORE MYTH. The group under the altar are MARTYRS of the church age. They are told they must wait for the FINAL martyr to be killed as they were - as CHURCH AGE martyrs. They must wait for the very last martyr of the chuch age, the last martyr before the pretrib rapture that ENDS the church age. How amazing, the very next event John mentions is the 6th seal, and Paul's rapture will be the first event of the 6th seal - OR will come one instant before the 6th seal.

 

Note: without a rapture before His coming on the white horse, as seen in Rev. 19, Jesus would have NO BRIDE. The marriage and supper take place in heaven before Jesus gets on His white horse to descend. So you in your wisdom have ROBBED GOD of His bride.

 

The truth is, Jesus comes BEFORE the 70th week FOR His bride, then comes AFTER the week WITH His bride, after the marriage and supper that take place in heaven before Jesus gets on His white horse.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

 

Lamad the great multitude John saw in heaven is being added to daily, every time a Christian dies, part of him goes to be with the Lord. This great multitude wasn't raptured to heaven as a group, they go there upon their death.  

Where do you come up with this idea.

 

This multitude John saw was on earth;  These are they who have come out of the Great Tribulation.   So this leaves out anyone who has died over the past 2000 or so years.  So this is not the Church.  And this is after the 144,000 were sealed.  Once the Great Tribulation is over and Armageddon is finished, the Second Coming happens, Christ is now on earth to set up His Kingdom and rule on earth for 1000 years.  Those (the Multitude) who come out of the Great Tribulation go directly into the Mill to be ruled with a rod of iron by Christ.  Chastised by Christ with a rod of iron; and this for the Church.  No way.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Sorry, Montana, but this is just not what is written.

 

⁹ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 

WHERE are they? They are before the throne in HEAVEN. HOW did they get there? Read 1 Thes. 4:17 and John 14. They were RAPTURED to get there.

 

Why does John say these came out of GT? It is very simiple: by the time of the rapture, people will be being put to death for their testimony around the world. It is in half the world today, and it is moving our way.

 

You should notice, by Rev. 7, John has not yet even started the 70th week, MUCH LESS arrived at the midpoint where the days of GT Jesus spoke of will begin.  John is not talking about those who will refuse the mark and lose their head. He saw this group in heaven BEFORE the first day of the 70th week. (The 70th week will begin with the 7th seal and 30 minutes of silence.)

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

Lamad the great multitude John saw in heaven is being added to daily, every time a Christian dies, part of him goes to be with the Lord. This great multitude wasn't raptured to heaven as a group, they go there upon their death.  

Sorry, this is not the intent of the Author. There is not one hint that these were martyrs. Did you not notice in 1 Thes. 5 that Paul's rapture comes as the trigger for the Day of the Lord, and John begins the Day of the Lord at the end of the 6th seal? So by Paul's writing His rapture will come just before the 6th seal earthquake, and this earthquake will be CAUSED by the dead in Christ rising. Did you not notice in Mat. 27 "the earth did quake....and the graves were opened?" This earthquake came because God raised up the ELDERS of the Old Testament when Jesus arose. This resurrection, even of a few, caused a mighty earthquake? Did you not notice there was also an earthquake when the two witnesses were resurrected? Make no mistake, when the dead in Christ rise, there will be a great, worldwide earthquake. That earthquake is the earthquake at the 6th seal.

 

LAMAD

[ARGOSY]

 

 

You have it backwards: the devil's deceit is the posttrib doctrine. He WANTS you to be left behind, so he can sift you as wheat. He is in hope he can make you, and all the others who have swallowed this doctrine, take the mark. He is betting when you get hungry enough, and are dying for a drink of water, you will just give up and take the mark.  Make no mistake, that is his goal.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Do you believe having the incorrect eschatology causes a Christian to be left behind?  I have never read that in the bible before.   

[Salty]

Revelation 13:8

And all the inhabitants of the earth will fall down in adoration and pay him homage, everyone whose name has not been recorded in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] from the foundation of the world.

 

Believers whose names are written in heaven will NOT BE deceived.

 

It is not God's will for ANY of His kids to suffer through His wrath, but rather ESCAPE all these things. That is why He will NOT set any appointments with His wrath. Why in the world would ANYONE want to set their OWN appointments?

 

HIS WILL is that we all obey Luke 21:36.

 

 

LAMAD

 

 

If you listen to the pre-trib rapture doctors, they will get you confused about the time of God's wrath upon the wicked which we in Christ Jesus are not appointed to. It does not occur during the "great tribulation" timing nor before, but at the end of it when our Lord Jesus returns to fight.

 

The wrath that we are... appointed to, and to make a stand for Christ through, is Satan's wrath during the coming tribulation (Rev.12:7 forward; Matt.24; Mark 13). But that is only for those in Christ, for brethren that fall away from Christ will be deceived along with the majority of the world and be of five foolish virgins our Lord Jesus warned about. Satan won't go after the deceived of God's people, because they will already be in his hand.

[iamlamad]

 

Revelation 13:8

And all the inhabitants of the earth will fall down in adoration and pay him homage, everyone whose name has not been recorded in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] from the foundation of the world.

 

Believers whose names are written in heaven will NOT BE deceived.

 

It is not God's will for ANY of His kids to suffer through His wrath, but rather ESCAPE all these things. That is why He will NOT set any appointments with His wrath. Why in the world would ANYONE want to set their OWN appointments?

 

HIS WILL is that we all obey Luke 21:36.

 

 

LAMAD

 

 

If you listen to the pre-trib rapture doctors, they will get you confused about the time of God's wrath upon the wicked which we in Christ Jesus are not appointed to. It does not occur during the "great tribulation" timing nor before, but at the end of it when our Lord Jesus returns to fight.

 

The wrath that we are... appointed to, and to make a stand for Christ through, is Satan's wrath during the coming tribulation (Rev.12:7 forward; Matt.24; Mark 13). But that is only for those in Christ, for brethren that fall away from Christ will be deceived along with the majority of the world and be of five foolish virgins our Lord Jesus warned about. Satan won't go after the deceived of God's people, because they will already be in his hand.

 

Sorry, but YOU are the one confused. Salty, the more you write, the more I find you know almost nothing about the book of Revelation. Where does JOHN tell us His wrath begins? Of course at the 6th seal. WHERE or WHEN in the course of events will the 6th seal be broken? Don't be confused - use your common sense and BELIEVE JOHN.

 

These seals are on a scroll.  Imagine a scroll rolled up and sealed with 7 seals. NO ONE can read what is inside until all 7 seals are broken. There are things written on the OUTSIDE of the scroll about each seal. Finally, when the 7th seal is broken, the scroll can be unrolled to reveal the TRUMPET judgments. As it is unrolled farther, it will reveal chapter by chapter IN THE SAME ORDER John wrote. The more you learn about Revelation, the more you see that John wrote with perfect chronology. NO trumpet will be revealed in the scroll and will not be sounded until all 7 seals are broken. In like manner, NO vial will be poured out until all 7 trumpet judgments have sounded.

 

Seal 1  White Horse: broken as soon as Jesus ascended: 32 AD: the CHURCH sent out to make disciples of all nations

Seal 2  Red Horse to bring war...limited to 1/4 of the earth: Europe, Middle East, Africa: These three ride together

Seal 3  Black Horse to bring famine...limited to 1/4 of the earth: Europe, Middle East, Africa: These three ride together

Seal 4  Pale Horse to bring death...limited to 1/4 of the earth: Europe, Middle East, Africa: These three ride together

These three riders, the Red, the Black, the Pale, ride together from hell to STOP the advance of the church.

Seal 5  Martyrs of the church age: must wait until the END of the church age......the rapture.

Seal 6  Rapture first as the trigger for the beginning of the Day of the Lord and the Day of His wrath

First intermission as the 144,000 Hebrews are sealed: John saw the raptured church in heaven.

Seal 7  30 minutes of silence...marks the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel

 

Trumpet 1  God's wrath begins in ernest with the first trumpet: all grass burned up, 1/3 of trees.....probably NUKES.

Trumpet 2  1/3 of sea becomes blood...as a WARNING of God's power to come.

Trumpet 3  1/3 part of fresh water becomes blood...another warning that it could have been all.

Trumpet 4  Sun moon and star darkened by 1/3...another warning that God controls everything.

Trumpet 5  first of three woes: beasties loosed from bottomless pit to sting and torture

Trumpet 6  Second of 3 woes: Angels sent to kill 1/3 of mankind off the planet

Second intermission as many events must take place before and after  the abomination  before the vials come

...Man of sin enters Jerusalem...3 1/2 days before the abomination.

...Two witnesses show up and begin their testimony seconds after the man of sin enters Jerusalem

Trumpet 7  3rd of 3 woes - exact midpoint of week - Satan cast down...God's wrath and Satan's wrath together

.....trumpet 7 will sound in heaven at the same moment the man of sin enters temple: the abomination.

Those living in Jerusalem flee to the mountains

Satan is cast down

Man of sin has turned to BEAST and goes after those who fled into wilderness

John sees the Beast rise - then the false prophet...summary of rest of week with the Beast.

Angels fly and warn the world to FEAR GOD and worship Him, Babylon is fallen (prophecy of future), DON'T take Mark

Days of GREAT TRIBULATION as the Mark and the image is set up and false miracles deceived the entire world

Untold millions of believers are put to death, the WW2 holocaust seems insignificant, for this is WORLDWIDE.

After God has deemed it long enough, the vials are poured out with their associated plagues to SHORTEN the days of GT.

Finally, just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial ends the 70th week, the Two witnesses are killed. They lay dead for 3 1/2 days.

The 7th vial is poured out, the Old Testament saints rise with the Two witnesses, and the 70th week is ended.

.......the world waits....the Beast gathers the armies of 10 nations to Israel to completely destroy Israel.

At the same time, the marriage and supper are takeing place in heaven,,,,had to wait for the Old Testament saints to arrive

Finally Jesus descends WITH all His saints, battle of Armageddon, parable of the tares, Angels sent to take the wicked.

The Beast and False prophet cast into the lake of fire.

Sheep and goat judgment

New temple, peace at last, Millennial reign, curse is lifted off the planet.

 

When these things begin to take place, THIS will be the order of events - exactly as John has written them.

 

LAMAD

Edited July 21, 2014 by iamlamad