The Day of the Lord, will the church be raptured?

[iamlamad]

 

When one understands the vision of the throne room in chapters 4 & 5, the seals are in perfect order. And we KNOW (no doubt at all) that seal # 1 was first just by process of elimination - all the rest are numbered as they are broken. Why did John use numbers? Of course for SEQUENCING. Why would anyone think they should rearrange what John wrote, when He used numbers?

 

The vision of the throne room IS the context of the seals - and sets the TIME of the first seals. John saw a vision of the throne room OF THE PAST. He was looking into the throne room during a time BEFORE Jesus rose from the dead. Notice that Jesus was NOT seen at first at the right hand of the Father, when we have a dozen verses telling us that is where He should have been seen. Stephen SAW Him there.

 

Next, during the first search to find one worthy, that search ended in FAILURE. WHY did it end in failure? Simply because in this vision the TIME was before Jesus rose from the dead. John was seeing a HISTORY LESSON.

 

Next, if one notices, in chapter 4 the Holy Spirit is STILL in the throne room, when Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended. WHY was the Holy Spirit still there? Simply because JEsus had not yet ascended in the vision.

 

Then, John saw the very moment Jesus ascended and entered the throne room - as a lamb having been slain. TIME? About 32 AD. And John SAW the Holy Spirit sent down the very instant Jesus arrived. TIME? About 32 AD. The moment Jesus arose from the dead  - He became the redeemer and was immediately found worthy to break the seals. So the moment He arrived after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not ascended - He then ascended to the Throne room and took the scroll from the Father's hand and began breaking seals. NO ONE can find 2000 years between any of those verses because it is just not there.

 

Therefore the first seals were broken around 32 AD. So what does the white horse represent? It represents the CHURCH sent out to make disciples. The next three horse ride together. They represent the efforts of the DEVIL to stop the church from escaping the 1/4 of the earth they were assigned to. We can be SURE that 1/4 will be centered on Jerusalem.

 

Of course the Devil failed, and the church broke through, because the gates of hell can NEVER stop the church! There is simply no where on the planet now someone cannot hear the gospel.

 

We can know for sure that the trumpets and the vials will come in order, because John NUMBERED them. And as Salty pointed out, the woes are numbered also for sequence. Since the seals, the trumpets, the woes, and the vials were numbered for sequencing, why would anyone think the rest of the book would not be in the proper order?

 

Finally, it is MYTH to say there is a coming at the 7th trumpet. Why would anyone even think this, when John was so clear in his writing that Jesus comes in chapter 19?

 

LAMAD

 

 

John's vision given him in Rev.4 & 5 is a future-forward look into Christ's Millennium and forward, simply because those 24 elders are shown there already wearing crowns. The handing out of crowns is a rewards by Christ topic, and does not occur until after His return.

 

Even Rev.5:9 with those elders proclaiming how they were 'redeemed' out of every kindred, tongue, and people, and nation, is pointing to the time after Christ's return, which is when the 'redemption' will occur.

 

Of course you are free to believe what you wish, but what I wrote is certainly the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit. There are four solid proofs that this was a vision of the past to John in 95 AD.

 

The elders are not as significant a proof as the fact that Jesus was NOT at the right hand of the Father, that the Holy Spirit was still there, and that no man was found in the search for one worthy.  And even a more powerful proof: John SAW Jesus when He ascended.

 

Since it is a vision, God could do anything in a vision. Of course none of the Old Testament saints escaped from paradise (Hades) until Jesus rose. But when He rose, THEY rose (Just the elders rose at that time). He hung around to talk to Mary. They also were seen in Jerusalem.

 

Did they ascend into heaven before Him? Notice that they did NOT say that Jesus redeemed us to God BEFORE Jesus ascended to the throne room. In chapter 4 they only mention God is worthy for He was the creator. In 5:5 Jesus became the overcomer as he rose from the dead. He "prevailed" over death. In verse 6 he entered the throne room for the first time after leaving in about 32 years before to be conceived in Mary. The very first thing He did was get the book from the hand of the Father and begin breaking the seals. Of course there was worship when He arrived in the throne room. It was after Jesus ascended and arrived in the thone room that they praised Him as their redeemer.

 

You are only guessing on the crowns being given at a certain time. The time here is very explicit: when Jesus ascended.

 

LAMAD

Edited July 22, 2014 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

 

Sorry, I don't know how I get duplicate posts.

 

Edited July 22, 2014 by iamlamad

[Montana Marv]

Salty

 

Here is a quote from you: 

 

John's vision given him in Rev.4 & 5 is a future-forward look into Christ's Millennium and forward, simply because those 24 elders are shown there already wearing crowns. The handing out of crowns is a rewards by Christ topic, and does not occur until after His return.

 

Even Rev.5:9 with those elders proclaiming how they were 'redeemed' out of every kindred, tongue, and people, and nation, is pointing to the time after Christ's return, which is when the 'redemption' will occur.

 

So according to what you posted, the Scroll that Jesus receives is not opened until after the Second Coming and into  the 1000 years, and therefore all the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl Judgments must happen during the 1000 years.  This is a totally false pretense you have brought up.

 

The 24 Elders, and the 4 living creatures who are around the throne all ask, "Who is Worthy to open the Scroll and Seven seals".  Jesus then is the one who is able to open the Scroll.  This is taking place at least pre mid-trib, or post pre-trib when this happens up in Heaven.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Marilyn C]

Spot on Montana Marv.

 

Also -

 

24 Elders - (2 x 12) Highest Government.

 

On Thrones - King Priests.

 

Around Jesus` Throne - Body of Christ.

 

With Golden Crowns - Victor`s, Overcomers.

 

 

There is no other group of people that this refers to. They are definitely the blood washed Body of Christ who sing their testimony - the New Song.

 

`Christ - `has made us Kings & Priests to His God & Father,....` (Rev. 1: 6)

 

The Body of Christ will be crowned & seated on thrones in the third heaven with Christ. (Rev. 3: 21)

 

The 24 Elders are representative of the Body of Christ who have been given the  highest governmental position in all of God`s great kingdom.

 

This is the `thrones area,` that Lucifer & his order of angels occupied before they were cast out.

 

The 24 Elders (representing the Body of Christ) sing this new song declaring why they believe that Jesus is worthy to rule, reign & bring judgment. (Rev. 5: 8 - 10)

 

After the judgment scroll is opened, the Lord Jesus Christ begins the judgment on the nations & the deliverance of Israel. (Rev. 11: 16 - 18)

The Body of Christ is seated with power & authority & is the heavenly court that takes part in this judgment. (Dan. 7: 9 - 10    1 Cor. 6: 2)

 

 

What an awesome inheritance we have as the Body of Christ. be careful that no one rob you of this.

[ARGOSY]

That is a good point....but then, no other prophecy was written with numbers for sequencing.

 

 

LAMAD

 

 

Obviously the numbers (7) are in a specific order.  I was referring to the sequence of the visions.   Firstly a vision of seven seals was seen. Then a vision of 7 trumpets was seen. Then a vision of seven seals was seen.   Why do you believe the 3 visions will be fulfilled in that same sequence? In other books in the bible (eg Isaiah/Daniel) each vision is treated as a separate vision, and the visions are fulfilled in a different order to the order they were written down.  

[Salty]

Salty

 

Here is a quote from you: 

 

John's vision given him in Rev.4 & 5 is a future-forward look into Christ's Millennium and forward, simply because those 24 elders are shown there already wearing crowns. The handing out of crowns is a rewards by Christ topic, and does not occur until after His return.

 

Even Rev.5:9 with those elders proclaiming how they were 'redeemed' out of every kindred, tongue, and people, and nation, is pointing to the time after Christ's return, which is when the 'redemption' will occur.

 

So according to what you posted, the Scroll that Jesus receives is not opened until after the Second Coming and into  the 1000 years, and therefore all the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl Judgments must happen during the 1000 years.  This is a totally false pretense you have brought up.

 

The 24 Elders, and the 4 living creatures who are around the throne all ask, "Who is Worthy to open the Scroll and Seven seals".  Jesus then is the one who is able to open the Scroll.  This is taking place at least pre mid-trib, or post pre-trib when this happens up in Heaven.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

The scroll and seals in Rev.5 do not determine the timing of when Christ hands out the crowns to His elect at His coming, which is when they are to reign with Him as kings and priests.

 

If you think all subjects within a single Bible chapter must always follow the same timeframe then you would be subject to all sorts of deceptions, just from lack of understanding how God's Word often jumps to the past, present, and future even within a short space of a verse or two. This the Books of the OT prophets do all the time, and Christ's Revelation follows that format like the Books of the OT prophets. This is why Revelation reads so differently than the rest of the NT Books.

[Montana Marv]

Rev 5:5-8 - Then one of the elders said to me.  Do not weep.  See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed.  He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.  Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders... He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.  And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb...  6:1 - Then I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals.

 

This all takes place before the 1st Seal is opened.  There is not, jumping around.  These 24 elders are seen up in heaven sometime before mid trib and before the scroll is open unleashing the S, T and B judgments.  I say these redeemed Church elders got to heaven way before mid trib, because they have already received their crown of glory which Christ issues to the Bride.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[iamlamad]

Rev 5:5-8 - Then one of the elders said to me.  Do not weep.  See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed.  He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.  Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders... He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.  And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb...  6:1 - Then I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals.

 

This all takes place before the 1st Seal is opened.  There is not, jumping around.  These 24 elders are seen up in heaven sometime before mid trib and before the scroll is open unleashing the S, T and B judgments.  I say these redeemed Church elders got to heaven way before mid trib, because they have already received their crown of glory which Christ issues to the Bride.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

You are overlooking the key point this part of the vision is telling you: TIMING. In this part of the vision John saw the very moment Jesus ascended, one moment after He was found worthy to break the seals, which was the very moment He rose from the dead to become the Redeemer of man. Therefore the timing was around 32 AD, and this part of this vision was a vision of the past, since John saw this vision around 95 AD.  Forget pre-mid-post. John has not yet even begun the 70th week. That is not what is being shown here. God is showing us the GREAT IMPORTANCE of someone being found worthy to break the seals and open this book. Remember, this is a vision, not reality. There were some elders that rose when Jesus rose. Some where seen in Jerusalem. Jesus did not at first ascend, for He stayed to talk with Mary. Did these elders arrive before Jesus did? It appears they did. Notice that the moment Jesus arrived, the Holy Spirit was sent down. This is another key to the timing.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

 

Salty

 

Here is a quote from you: 

 

John's vision given him in Rev.4 & 5 is a future-forward look into Christ's Millennium and forward, simply because those 24 elders are shown there already wearing crowns. The handing out of crowns is a rewards by Christ topic, and does not occur until after His return.

 

Even Rev.5:9 with those elders proclaiming how they were 'redeemed' out of every kindred, tongue, and people, and nation, is pointing to the time after Christ's return, which is when the 'redemption' will occur.

 

So according to what you posted, the Scroll that Jesus receives is not opened until after the Second Coming and into  the 1000 years, and therefore all the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl Judgments must happen during the 1000 years.  This is a totally false pretense you have brought up.

 

The 24 Elders, and the 4 living creatures who are around the throne all ask, "Who is Worthy to open the Scroll and Seven seals".  Jesus then is the one who is able to open the Scroll.  This is taking place at least pre mid-trib, or post pre-trib when this happens up in Heaven.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

The scroll and seals in Rev.5 do not determine the timing of when Christ hands out the crowns to His elect at His coming, which is when they are to reign with Him as kings and priests.

 

If you think all subjects within a single Bible chapter must always follow the same timeframe then you would be subject to all sorts of deceptions, just from lack of understanding how God's Word often jumps to the past, present, and future even within a short space of a verse or two. This the Books of the OT prophets do all the time, and Christ's Revelation follows that format like the Books of the OT prophets. This is why Revelation reads so differently than the rest of the NT Books.

 

Look Salty, this is what happened to me: I was just minding my own business, reading Daniel 9:27, and when my mind and my eyes got to the word "midst" God spoke: I heard His voice and His words. He said, "you could find that exact midpoint clearly marked in the book of Revelation." He added, "in fact, you could find the entire 70th week clearly marked."

 

Well, I FOUND what He sent me to find. The entire 70th week is "marked" (His word, not mine) by 7's. The week beings at the 7th seal and with the 30 minutes of silence, and ends with the 7th vial. The midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet.

 

When I found that the seals are not a part of the 70th week, I went back to chapter 4 and said to God:  "there must be clues here to show this is not part of the 70th week. So I read and meditated for days, and kept bugging God for help. I got stuck in John weeping, and kept bugging God: "Why did we need to know that John wept, and why did we need to know it was much?" Finally He answered (again I heard His voice and His words): "It shows timing." I read and read, and meditated, but could not see timing in this chapter at all, so I kept on bugging Him. Finally (perhaps after two weeks or so) He added, "it also shows the movement of time."

 

I kept on, trying to find any movement of time, and could not find that either. I guess I spent two months of intense study on these two chapters. Finally God showed mercy on me and said (again, voice and words) "I will ask you three questions about this passage: until you can answer them correctly, you will never understand this passage."

 

"1. Why did John not see me immediately at the right hand of the Father, when there are a dozen verses saying that is where I should be?  (I could not answer Him )

 

2. Why in the first search for one worthy to break the seals that John watched, was I not found? If you read ahead, you see I was found later.  (Again I had no answer)

 

3. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4, when I said I would send Him down as soon as I ascended?"

 

I could not answer any of His questions. So again, I was in intense study for perhaps two weeks, trying to find the right answers to these questions. I got NO WHERE. I could not answer.

 

Finally after two or three week, He spoke again and just said, "go and study chapter 12." AT chapter 12 He spoke (again I heard words and voice) and explained how the first 5 verses were about His birth, and how the dragon had tried to kill Him as a child. He used two words that changed my entire thinking: He said, "this was a history lesson for John." I agreed with Him and then He said, "you can go back to chapters 4 & 5 now." He sent me to chapter 12 to get "history lesson" in my mind. Suddenly all was different: in two or three minutes I had the answer to all three questions. All I needed was to think history instead of future.

 

You can think future if you wish, but the head of the church, JESUS CHRIST taught me that this part of the vision, chapters 4 & 5 were a HISTORY LESSON. John was seeing into the throne room of the past, a time just before Jesus rose. There is ample proof in the text that this is truth. John saw the throne room before Jesus arose, then saw the very moment He arose - so the movement of time. The one thing Jesus did not address was the 24 elders.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

 

That is a good point....but then, no other prophecy was written with numbers for sequencing.

 

 

LAMAD

 

 

Obviously the numbers (7) are in a specific order.  I was referring to the sequence of the visions.   Firstly a vision of seven seals was seen. Then a vision of 7 trumpets was seen. Then a vision of seven seals was seen.   Why do you believe the 3 visions will be fulfilled in that same sequence? In other books in the bible (eg Isaiah/Daniel) each vision is treated as a separate vision, and the visions are fulfilled in a different order to the order they were written down.  

 

That is very simple, I see the progression written just as a history book was written, in time sequence. I see the 7th seal as the opening of the 70th week, the 7th trumpet as the midpoint, and the 7th vial as the end. I have no doubt about that, for that was the very first thing God sent me to find, and told me how to find it. I see that John was meticulous with his chronology all through the book. As an example, sort of as an intermission between the 6th and 7th seal, the sealing of the 144,000 must be accomplished before the 70th week begins. And of course the church must be raptured before john writes of the Wrath of God has come.

 

Again John breaks between the 6th and 7th trumpet, and for the same reason. The man of sin MUST arrive in Jerusalem (11:1-2) before he can enter the temple and declare he is god (the 7th trumpet).

 

Because I see how close John holds to sequence or chronology, I know that chapter 19 is in the very same perfect sequence. The marriage and supper will take place in heaven before Jesus ever gets on His white horse. I see that the Bride is ALREADY THERE in heaven, before Jesus ascends. This completely destroys all posttrib doctrines, so they have to rearrange Revelation to make their theory fit - exactly what they accuse pretribbers of doing. Next, there is MUCH evidence of this marriage in heaven from people that have been to heaven and seen the preparations: tables spread as far as the eye can see, each place setting with a name on it.

 

LAMAD