The Day of the Lord, will the church be raptured?

[Spock]

Inchrist,

As I previously said, I really couldn't care less if you believe in the rapture or not.

And I could care less about what people think regarding the TIMING of the rapture (those who believe in one).

However.....

Just to play along.

Rapture passages which I'm sure you are aware of:

1. I thess 4

2. I cor 15

You can start with those two. If you can't see a rapture in any of these two, no need for me to continue.

Still have great love and respect for you even though you missed the boat on this one.

Spock out

[Spock]

Lamad,

Wow, you just gave me something to ponder with your last post. I'm not sure it is right but it is certainly something to ponder.

I have struggled with this thought for a long time- are the seals in the 70th week of Daniel or before it. Your post has renewed my thoughts on this. Thanks for challenging me.

Just for a while, try to fit all that people SAY are in the first half of the week, into a 3 1/2 year period of time. To start, How do you get WARS [one war may last for years], RUMORs of wars [they can last even longer than wars] , many false Christs, "nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom," famines [each one may last several years], and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places," 6 seals, 6 trumpets [the 7th marks the midpoint] all into 3 1/2 years? Of course with God it would be possible, but is this the author's INTENTION? I don't think so. In fact, I know the 70th week starts with the 7th seal. The 5th seal are the martyrs of the CHURCH age.

LAMAD

The rebuttal you are going to get about putting the seals before Daniels 70th week is probably from pre tribbers who see the rapture in rev 4:1 (I'm not one of them).

If they see the rapture in rev 4, then rev 6 follows that which puts rev 6 events AFTER the rapture.

Again, that is not my rebuttal.

I really don't have a rebuttal because I have always entertained the notion that the 4 horsemen are pre 70th week too that covers a much wider time span than 3.5 years.

But, I don't know. I love to read what other people see.

Again, good stuff mate, specially the 5th seal interpretation. I like.

[Montana Marv]

Montana Marv, whats the distinction between fine linen and white robes? Rev. 19: 14 says ... clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Robes are an outer garment or long jacket,  Fine linen is more of body covering.  Linen is based on number of threads, the higher the thread count, the better the quality of linen.

 

The NT saints are given fine linen.  All others seem to get white robes.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Salty]

Hey Salty,

You are not UNBIASED (like me), so quit trying to influence the "unbiased with no agenda" judge. Lol

 

I have no agenda except God's agenda per His Word. So if by that you mean I am biased, darn right I am biased with The LORD and no one else, which means not men's traditions from their religious organizations. If folks want to debate a Bible issue then they need to provide Biblical support and not just affirmations as if something were true without any Scripture backup.

[Salty]

"I don't think you're finished asking Him. In the very first verse of Rev.4 John is being told he is going to be shown things that must be "hereafter". So the vision he was given there was not past history, but for the future."

 

 

Why is it you are not reading basic English correctly? Are the events of chapter 21 "hereafter?"  Certainly they still are! Many chapters are "hereafter."

 

What you THINK he said was, "I will shew thee ONLY things which must be hereafter.

 

He did not put that "only" there. So if He showed John ONE THING that was future, and then showed John chapter after chapter of mana recipies, He would not have broken this verse as it is written. The truth is, Several things In John's visions were of things PAST.

 

Then, you forgot this verse:

 

¹⁹ Write the things which thou hast seen, [PAST] and the things which are [PRESENT], and the things which shall be hereafter; [FUTURE].

 

 

"The "new song" of Rev.5:9 is the song in Rev.14."

 

Did you just SKIP OVER what this really says? John TELLS US THE SONG - the text in red. :

 

⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

¹⁰ And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

This is NOT the song of Chatper 14. Did you not read that ONLY THE 144,000 could learn the song of Chapter 14? Did you read the WORDS that that song? Of course you did not, for John did not write them.

 

The "mount Sion" is the Zion on earth after Christ's return, and that's when the new song is sung.

 

You are still batting ZERO. What part of "before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders:" do you not understand? This is in HEAVEN. The 144,000 were RAPTURED as firstfruits unto God.

 

YOu are SO FAR OFF FROM TRUTH in the rest of your post I will not comment. Salty, you absoluty amaze me with your man made theories. WHY are you on a public forum teaching things SO FAR from the truth of scripture?

 

LAMAD

 

 

You're the one who said the 24 elders being in Heaven before the throne having crowns already was a past event, I didn't. I said that is a future forward look after Christ's return, which is when the crowns are handed out. And the Rev.14 Scripture proves my point, for it is a future forward look for after Christ's return, and that is when the "new song" is sung. In Rev.15 we're given another example of the saints who got the victory over the Antichrist with the harps of God singing the song of Moses. That's for after... Christ's return. That's when He promised the crowns and white rainment, and that applies to those 24 elders of Rev.4 & 5 also. Sorry that debunks the Pre-trib Rapture doctor's teaching of a pre-trib rapture with those Rev.4 & 5 chapters, but that's what it does.

 

No one as yet is ruling with Christ at The Father's throne in Heaven, for that's what the crowns are about, being made kings and priests to reign with Christ. Even Christ Jesus has not received His throne of rule yet and sits at the right hand of The Father's throne in Heaven, for Christ's throne is to be the throne of David, which is an EARTHLY throne in case you didn't know.

 

All you're doing is listening to a bunch of men who constantly drum up their own traditions loosely based on God's Word. It's apparent they don't know where Christ's elect will reign with Him, when He told them in Revelation. Pretty obvious you don't know either, even though it is written and all one need do is read it. Hint: it will be upon this earth as written.

[Spock]

Montana Marv, whats the distinction between fine linen and white robes? Rev. 19: 14 says ... clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Robes are an outer garment or long jacket,  Fine linen is more of body covering.  Linen is based on number of threads, the higher the thread count, the better the quality of linen.

 

The NT saints are given fine linen.  All others seem to get white robes.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Marv,

Is it possible this passage refers to ANGELS and not NT saints as you alluded to above?

14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

[Spock]

Hey Salty,

You are not UNBIASED (like me), so quit trying to influence the "unbiased with no agenda" judge. Lol

 

I have no agenda except God's agenda per His Word. So if by that you mean I am biased, darn right I am biased with The LORD and no one else, which means not men's traditions from their religious organizations. If folks want to debate a Bible issue then they need to provide Biblical support and not just affirmations as if something were true without any Scripture backup.

Salty,

Sorry my sense of humor went over your head on this one. I'll try harder to make that obvious when I get silly.

[Spock]

Where in the Bible does it say the 24 elders are synonymous with the church ?

What is your interpretation of the 24 elders here, bro?

[Salty]

If the truth be told, we were redeemed before the foundation of the earth. But in reality we became redeemed the moment Jesus rose from the dead and defeated death.  That is just what they said: You have redeemed us." WHEN? The moment He rose from the dead. They said this shortly after He told Mary not to hold on to Him for He had not yet ascended - and then He ascended.

 

LAMAD

 

 

The Rev.5 redeemed idea includes the time all the way up to Christ's second coming on the last day of this present world. But what you're preaching is similar to Calvinism, the idea that who all will be redeemed has already been decided before the foundation of this world, like it's a fate issue. That idea is not Biblical; it is caused by not understanding the difference between Christ's chosen elect that were ordained before the foundation of this world compared to those who only come to Christ Jesus and believe during... this present world, and those who will believe on Christ during His future Millennium reign. John 17 described this difference between the two groups, and in final Christ said both were to become one in Him and The Father, i.e., His Church.

 

This is why we are given Scripture like Rev.13:8, for the only ones that will refuse to worship the coming Antichrist will be those who names were written from the foundation.

[Salty]

 

 

Hey Salty,

You are not UNBIASED (like me), so quit trying to influence the "unbiased with no agenda" judge. Lol

 

I have no agenda except God's agenda per His Word. So if by that you mean I am biased, darn right I am biased with The LORD and no one else, which means not men's traditions from their religious organizations. If folks want to debate a Bible issue then they need to provide Biblical support and not just affirmations as if something were true without any Scripture backup.

Salty,

Sorry my sense of humor went over your head on this one. I'll try harder to make that obvious when I get silly.

 

 

No harm. I am very serious when it comes to God's Word, so I don't tend towards humor when in this mode, sorry, can't help it.