Question about Jesus Christ

[Butch5]

 

I have wondered how Jesus could even be the saviour of men if the fleshly body He inhabited had no sin nature whatsoever. How could He feel our infirmities or even be tempted as men are tempted, if not? I know most Christians say no to my idea of Jesus having any flesh with a sin nature during His incarnation, but I am actually skeptical of Jesus having inhabited a fleshly body that was completely free of sin. I feel like it actually violates "1 John 4:1-3." If so, how could His flesh be fully after the nature of Abraham or mankind in general? If it was made sinless, how did Jesus in fact die for our sins then? 

 

Some Christians charge Roman Catholics as being in violation of "1 John 4:1-3" due to their teaching of the "immaculate conception" (sinless nature) of the virgin Mary, but how is the assertion that Jesus had no fleshly sin nature much different from this false doctrine? Some Christians have asked, "If Mary had no sin nature, then how can Jesus be the savior of men at all?" If Jesus had no sin nature even while assuming that Mary did, how is this not the exact same problem where the atonement is concerned? In both cases, Jesus is still without a fleshly body that has the problem of a sin nature from Adam. 

 

If Jesus cleansed the sin nature while still in the womb of Mary, then how could He have died for our sins 33 years later on the cross since the sinful flesh nature had already been eliminated? So, the cross seems unnecessary then for the elimination of sin, since Jesus may have already done it while in the womb at the moment of conception. By this reasoning, therefore, when He died, He did not die in a sinful body like that of the rest of the human race. Do you get why I am having a problem here? 

 

I know Gnosticism is definitely a heresy. I do not believe it. As I have understood it, the Gnostics believed Jesus could not have possibly inhabited a body of flesh since He would have been tainted by its sin nature and forced into sin. I disagree. 

 

I think Jesus could have had flesh with a sin nature but perfectly overcame the temptation to sin due to His divine nature, which man does not have. His Divine nature could have been used to override the genuine temptation of the sinful, fleshly nature every single time. Hence, in the sense of perfectly avoiding sinning via His Divine nature, He could still be said to be "free of sin" and having "no sin within Him (His heart/mind)" even while being sincerely tempted by the flesh itself. Most Christians say that temptation itself is not a sin but rather giving into it. I, of course, believe that the Bible clearly teaches Jesus never gave into any kind of temptation for it to yield any kind of actual sin.

 

I have read a man online making the argument that if Jesus could have ever genuinely had the ability and/or choice to sin from His human nature (not from His Divine, as is evident from Titus 1:2 KJV), He could not be the trustworthy God of Scripture. Again, I disagree. He tried to argue that Christ only felt our infirmities in things like being hungry, tired, etc., which are weaknesses from having a natural body rather than from feeling any temptation to actually sin at all. 

 

I think this sounds lame and makes the proclamation "He was tempted in ALL ways as we are" a misleading statement at best and an outright lie at worst. Everyone knows being tempted to actually do something sinful is part of human nature and has plagued mankind since forever, and it is a real and ever-present infirmity, even for the Christian. If Christ lacked this, He did NOT experience temptation as mankind experiences it on a moment-by-moment basis, even in our very thoughts. 

 

So, for all practical purposes, the above proclamation is rendered worthless to me if this is true. If true, Jesus then cannot really relate to mankind's struggle in the way He has claimed. I find the man's apologetic for Jesus lacking a fleshly sin nature questionable for that very reason. Does anyone have any other ideas/thoughts? Or a better argument than this man? Thanks!

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by a sin nature. When God finished the creation He said it was very good. In that very good creation Adam had the ability to choose to obey or disobey. The Scriptures say that Jesus was made like His brethren in all ways. Pail said, 'being in the form of God, he emptied Himself' and John said, 'the Word became flesh'. Jesus became human and as such was subject to all the same temptations that man is subject to. The reason He could be without sin is because He was taught directly from the Father before He even was able to discern right from wrong.

 

14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel1.

15 "Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. (Isa 7:14-15 NKJ)

 

We know that the Father was teaching Him because we was astounding the religious leaders when He was only 12 years of age.

 

46 Now so it was that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions.

47 And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers. (Luk 2:46-47 NKJ)

[Floatingaxe]

Jesus being tempted means He was TESTED in all ways as we are. He was not subject to sin in any way.

[WilliamL]

The soul derives from the father. All of our fathers were sinful: only Jesus had a sinless father.

 

The flesh of itself is not sinful. It is corrupted by its lineage from our sinful ancestors, yes, but it is not sinful in itself. Sin results from choice, and choices are made by souls, not bodies.

[other one]

Jesus had the same nature as did Adam......    he was just not born under the curse of Adam's sin......    and he himself did not sin....   but that doesn't mean that he didn't have the same drives physical that we do.....   including Adam and Eve.

[FreeinChrist]

The premise that Jesus had to have a sin nature in order to feel the "tug" of temptation as we do, is a false premise.   Jesus had a human nature, albeit a sinless human nature. It is not a sin to be tempted, so there is no reason to believe that Jesus didn't feel temptation the same way we do.

 

Jesus didn't deal with temptation in His divinity, but in His humanity.  He modeled for us how to overcome temptation through the power of the Word of God and the Holy Spirit. 

 

It is precisely the fact that Jesus was sinless that qualifies him to be our Savior.  If being sinless, as you imply in your opening sentence, is a disqualifier for being our sacrifice for sin, who would qualify?

 

Our sacrifice HAD to be sinless. If you look at the types and shadows in the OT sacrificial system, the sacrificial animal had to be spotless and without blemish.  It had to be the best of the best.  It typifies the nature of Jesus' sinless offering of Himself on the cross.

 

If someone had to have a sin nature then Abraham or Moses or one of the prophets could have died for us.  But it was God in human flesh who died for us.

Amen.

 

9)   But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10) For it became Him, for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in the bringing many sons unto glory, to make the Captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

11)  For both He who that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren.

Hebrews 2:9-11

 

IMO while Jesus never sin, but by taking our sins upon Himself as the perfect sacrifice He understood the feeling of failure that sin brings upon each of us.  So that this is the reason why Jesus asked for this cup to pass from Him, Luke 22:42; He was completely innocent yet for us sinners, toke our sins that we might be made His Righteousness; II Corinthians 5:21; I Peter 3:18.  For at Christ first coming He borne our sins, but at His second coming He will appear without sin unto salvation, Hebrews 9:28.

 

Even the best Christian know what it is like to sin, but no believers likes being blame for something he/she didn't do.  Yet this is what Jesus did to bring us into the Family of God He took our wicked horrible sins upon Himself.  As believers we are now as His Brothers and Sisters and He is the Captain of our Salvation.

[Guest Teditis]

Jesus was tempted several times according to Scripture... He chose not to sin.

[bcbsr]

 

I have wondered how Jesus could even be the saviour of men if the fleshly body He inhabited had no sin nature whatsoever. How could He feel our infirmities or even be tempted as men are tempted, if not? I know most Christians say no to my idea of Jesus having any flesh with a sin nature during His incarnation, but I am actually skeptical of Jesus having inhabited a fleshly body that was completely free of sin. I feel like it actually violates "1 John 4:1-3." If so, how could His flesh be fully after the nature of Abraham or mankind in general? If it was made sinless, how did Jesus in fact die for our sins then? 

 ...

 

 

Good point. 

 

Since it says, "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4:15, and seeing as we're tempted by the world, the flesh and the devil, and as it says, "For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted." Heb 2:17,18, Jesus would not have been qualified to be a high priest had he not had a human, sinful nature as we have. He would not have been made like us in every way. And he would not have been human. 

 

In fact John writes, "Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist," 1John 4:2,3 The word "flesh" here is "sarx" in Greek, which is the same work the NIV often translates as "sinful nature". 

 

And so yes, I personally agree with you that denying that Jesus' body had a human nature is in violation of 1John 4:1-3

[Openly Curious]

We are told that He was tempted in all ways as we are, yet without sin. He obviously had free will to disobey His Father God, but chose not to. Otherwise He would have not has such a struggle in the Garden of Gesthemine when He prayed 'Nevertheless, not My will be done but Thine". It was not easy for Him to choose to go the the cross.

This thread goes back to Feb.

But I agree with you Willa as Jesus was God in flesh and walked among men. Jesus was born of the virgin Mary having an earthly mother. But Jesus did not have and earthly Father Jesus Father was God. Jesus had an earthly nature and body just as we do but he also had the divine nature of the Heavenly Father. Basically Jesus came to earth so that God the Father could identify with the sufferings and things of this life so that we could identify with his nature and accept his sacrifice on the cross which makes us a new creature created in Christ Jesus and when we are born again and accept the sacrifice of Christ body he gave on the cross for the sacrifice of our sins we are made partakers of his divine nature. (hence choosing to walk in the flesh [sinful nature} or choosing to walk in the Spirit (the divine nature of God)

Here is a list of scriptures that will show Jesus was tempted by Satan and how he overcame temptation.

Matthew 4:1-11

Luke 4:1-13, John 14:30

Hebrews 2:18 - For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to "succour" them that are tempted.

Hebrews 4:15 - For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, WilliamL.

 

The soul derives from the father. All of our fathers were sinful: only Jesus had a sinless father.

 

The flesh of itself is not sinful. It is corrupted by its lineage from our sinful ancestors, yes, but it is not sinful in itself. Sin results from choice, and choices are made by souls, not bodies.

 

You need a more biblical definition of “soul.” If you study it out, you will find that a person BECOMES a “soul" the moment he or she takes his or her first breath! The word “nefesh” in Hebrew means “one that breathes!” The body takes in the “spirit” (Hebrew: ruach = the “wind" or the “breath") and man becomes a living “nefesh”- a “soul!” (Genesis 2:7) He ceases to be a “soul” when he draws his last “breath."

[Ezra]

He ceases to be a “soul” when he draws his last “breath."

 

Retro,

Not sure how you came up with this, but it is certainly NOT Bible truth. Souls do not cease to exist. Redeemed souls go to be with the Lord.  Unredeemed souls go to Hades to await their final judgment.  And there is no such thing as "soul sleep" either.  The body metaphorically sleeps in the grave, whereas souls remain alive.