A Long Hair, Tattoo Pastor

[Openly Curious]

If I was ever forced to get a tattoo I would get a small cross on my ring finger  

 

Bopeep my hope and prayer is that you will never be forced to do anything you chose not to do. Being forced into something against your will is not something pleasant to live with.

[Openly Curious]

 

I have many tattoos I had gotten prior to being saved....does that make the Spirit not use me?

Hippie God can use anyone and call anyone he see's fit. But I can and will tell you that your ministry in the Lord will be hindered because you have gotten those tattoo's prior to salvation. Because there will be circles and people who will not accept you when they see those tattoo's and some will treat you as a second class saint even though you may be saved to the uttermost and have a guilt free conscious between you and the Lord. I do not say this as any kind of judgment or a put down but I say it simply because I know it is true. But there is nothing that can be done about those tatoo's prior to salvation they are permanent unless one chooses to get them removed. This is just how it is it's not good but it's a fact.

Hippie said

Again....showing closed minded people. Is like saying I should dress like a priest to look be treated like one -

Well in some circles you got to look the part for people to know that is who you really are such a mail man or a police officer. I mean I wouldn't want a police officer coming and pulling me over without a uniform on or badge that identifies him as a police officer and all that stuff. I'd want to know he was really real.

Hippie there are closed minded people and that is what I have been saying to you. People will not accept people it is just a hard fact but one can't let this hard fact get under there skin. Perhaps instead it should be given an honest look for the souls of those we could reach instead of being hard to the lost and towards those who want accept us. People are looking for God in us but do they really see him and do they find him in us. It's possible that the minister's and priest of God are being closed minded themselves in the mater of personal appearance. I've even read some examples of some priests in the bible that were wrong in their posistions and others had to pay for it in bad ways.

quote Hippie 

Which addresses the John the Baptist comment I made - He looked NOTHING like the priests of the time. I don't find it in poor discussion to bring it up - or discuss it. He wore the exact opposite of what was EXPECTED to be seen from a man of God at that time. - The reference proves my point of God will use whoever he uses. Those who don't listen based on looks have the issue....not the speaker...how can one ever conform to look like something pleasing to everyone?

Well I would like to point out that John the Baptist was not a priest as you are claiming he was. He was not called into the priesthood nor served in the temple dealing with the offerings that were offered up to God. Also what he personally looked like can only be speculation on any of our parts as none of us were there to give witness to his looks except for what it tells us in scripture which is that he wore camels hair and ate wild locust and honey anything added to that is not biblical. John the baptist was a messenger who was the forerunner of Christ hearlded the message of Christ before he made himself known at the Jordan river to be bapistized by John and a voice was heard from heaven this is my beloved Son...I am sorry you feel the need to use John the Baptist to make points on the subject as there were no pictures we can look to not that it would matter as again John the baptist was not nor was called to be a priest.

John the Baptist doesn't prove any point your trying to make nor will he. The Speaker or preacher as you've mentioned regardless of your present thoughts do have a responsibility to their hearers. Apostle Paul in 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus and the other epistles teaches us in regards to those who hear us.

The issue is not how we can find a way as a minister to dress where everyone will just accept us if that is all you are thinking and meditating on then you are missing so much. The thing is we are to be dressing in the image of God be it inwardly or outwardly. It is up to us to find out what that is in our personal lives and not what it is in the eyes of others but from God's viewpoint. We as speakers and ministers have to be careful and guard our hearts towards hardness of those who hear and see us as minister's of God.

I think you give a bogus agrument in favor of your position in the fact that John the Baptist is not even brought up in the 1 Corinthians passage that mentions hair lenth nor does it come up in that passage we are to eat wild locust and honey as he did as a messenger of God by his example.

It is two sepertate issues going on here you are using the smoke screen approach but it just don't fit. The issue is if one wants to be a shame or not and not about traditional clothing of choice. You are discussing something now that wasn't even being discussed in the thread but a totally different issue. Nobody asked in the OP if we should wear camel's hair and eat wild locust and honey nor traditional clothing or go to a church were the pastor wears camel's hair and eats only wild locust and honey I see it as off topic and another question altogether which I would have a different answer too.

[Guest Butero]

There are a couple of posts that were addressed to me, so I just want to briefly comment on them.

 

@ FresnoJoe, you never answered what I asked you directly about how far you take that about not judging another man's servant, and why you have done so in the past, even in an instance where the Bible was silent on an issue.  I have to therefore conclude you do pick and choose where you apply that rule, and since you do that yourself, there is no reason for you to judge me for doing the very thing you do.  I don't know if Jesus wore pants or not.  I know they existed as far back as to the Levitical priests, as it was part of their garments, so he very well may have, but that has never been an issue.  The issue is women wearing what pertains to a man, not what Jesus wore.  Besides, we were not discussing that in this thread.  The question was about a Pastor who has long hair and tattoos.  It is not about whether or not Jesus wore pants or whether a Pastor is ok to dress like John The Baptist.  I tried to answer the OP, and I hope we can get back on topic. 

 

@ Hippie, I disagreed with Shiloh when he gave his opinion of why that passage is in the Bible, and I still continue to disagree with it.  The short hair on a man is a sign he is in submission to his head, Jesus Christ, and long hair on a woman is a sign she is in submission to her head, which is her husband if she is married, and Jesus Christ if she is single.  Even the women who wear head coverings understand that is what the covering is symbolic of.  It is a New Testament teaching, so it does matter.  The OP addressed two things, a man with tattoos and long hair Pastoring a church.  It did not ask about a man wearing traditional clothing for church.  It did not ask about a man wearing camels hair.  Had the OP asked if I would attend a church with a Pastor who wore camels hair, I would have said I was ok with it, since the Bible doesn't call it a sin or a shame to do so.  I also made it clear more than once that if someone has tattoos, I don't automatically make judgments about them, realizing they could have gotten them before they got saved.  My issue with long hair on a man is that the Bible states it is a shame, so I would have a problem with a Pastor doing something the New Testament calls a shame, and that shows they are in rebellion to their head.  I have no intention of answering a question of who God will use or not use.  My only concern is over what is taught in the Bible.  We can speculate all day on how long John The Baptist's hair is, but nobody knows.  I did address what is long by saying if a person believes their hair is short, that should be good enough.  We know within ourselves what long hair is. 

[FresnoJoe]

Righteous Clothing~!

 

Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing;

 

and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

 

I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich;

 

and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed,

 

and that the shame of thy nakedness

 

do not appear;

 

 

and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve,

 

that thou mayest see. Revelation 3:17-18

 

~

 

@ FresnoJoe, you never answered what I asked you directly about how far you take that about not judging another man's servant,

 

 

Beloved, It's The Issue

 

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

 

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

 

Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. Matthew 23:8-10

 

And Not The Servant Of The LORD That I Will Judge

 

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind,

 

and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Acts 17:11

 

And It's Scripture And Not The Girl's Clothing Nor The Man's Hair Cut That Will Judge

 

Where is boasting then? It is excluded.

 

By what law? of works?

 

Nay:

 

but by the law of faith. Romans 3:27

 

And Dear John, Although We May Appear To Stand Far Apart On This Issue Of Outward Appearances

 

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres,

 

which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Matthew 23:24

 

I Believe We Both Hardily Agree That Jesus Is The Only Source Of Righteousness

 

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness:

 

for they shall be filled. Matthew 5:6

 

And As I Read It, Clothes And Hair Will Not Fireproof A Woman

 

He raiseth up the poor out of the dust,

 

and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes,

 

and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them. 1 Samuel 2:8

 

Nor Will A Manly Suit

 

Of sin,

 

because they believe not on me; John 16:9

 

Impress Jesus

 

This is my commandment,

 

That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

 

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

 

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

 

Henceforth I call you not servants;

 

for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth:

 

but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father

 

I have made known unto you. John 15:12-15

 

~

 

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

 

And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me. Matthew 11:6

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

[other one]

 When a person takes a position that trust is very important then I think first impressions are important.It could very well be that the person who comes off as clean cut could be the biggest deceiver in the world but in these cases first impressions are important to me.You have your views on this and I have mine.

First impressions are important, however the real problem starts when that's all that is taken into consideration;  that is a huge problem in this time and day.

[hmbld]

 But I can and will tell you that your ministry in the Lord will be hindered because you have gotten those tattoo's prior to salvation. 

 

I disagree.  It is a living testimony to Joe's post #104.

[angels4u]

 A very clean cut man can be  preaching a  false gospel and the person with the long hair is on fire for the Lord and is preaching the gospel and people will get saved in his church..

 

Which church would you attend?

 

Just something to think of....

 

2 Samuel 16:7

But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

[missmuffet]

 A very clean cut man can be  preaching a  false gospel and the person with the long hair is on fire for the Lord and is preaching the gospel and people will get saved in his church..

 

Which church would you attend?

 

Just something to think of....

 

2 Samuel 16:7

But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

With both I would be observing very,very closely.That is where my discernment would come in that God has given me.

[Guest Butero]

@ Fresno Joe.  There is a difference in righteous clothing and spiritual clothing.  The spiritual clothing is what God will give us in the next life if we are accounted worthy to have an inheritance in the kingdom of heaven.  That is quite different from wearing clothing that God is pleased with in this life.  Whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, God does care that men dress like a man and women dress like a woman. 

 

The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment;  for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.  Deuteronomy 22:5

 

Again, I would point out that while the Bible never identifies what is man's clothing and woman's clothing, we know certain garments pertain to one sex or the other.  I know for instance that a sun dress is not a man's garment, in spite of the fact the Bible never specifically states "neither shall a man put on a sun dress."  This is called application.  I know the sun dress is a woman's garment, therefore I know it is an abomination for the man to wear it.  Likewise, I know that jeans pertain to a man.  Pants are a man's garment.  I don't need the word pants to be specifically mentioned in the Bible to know that anymore than I need the word sun dress to be in the Bible.  By the way, once again, this is off topic.  The OP asked specifically about a Pastor who had long hair and tattoos.  They asked if we would go to his church or to a church with a Pastor like that.  I said no then, and I still would say no.  They are violating other scripture.  It is not because they aren't wearing a 3 piece suit.  It is not because they aren't wearing priestly robes.  It is because they are doing something the Bible calls a shame.  The tattoos could have happened before they were saved, so I wouldn't make any rash judgments based on that, but if they continue with the long hair, that is a choice they are making.  1 Corinthians 11:1-16

 

1  BE ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

2  Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

 

Isn't that something?  Paul is actually telling us to obey ordinances.  That sounds like obedience to laws to me.  Amazing!  Now, often times, when people address this passage, they make the mistake at beginning at verse 4, but in order to understand it properly, you must begin in verse 3, which is what I plan to do.

 

3  But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.

 

That lays the foundation for what God is about to tell us through the Apostle Paul.

 

4  Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

5  But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishounoreth her head:  for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

6  For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn:  but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

7  For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God:  but the woman is the glory of the man.

8  For the man is not of the woman:  but the woman of the man.

9  Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

10  For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head, because of the angels. 

 

According to verse 4, if a man prays or prophesies having his head covered, he dishonors his head.  Verse 3 tells us the man's head is Christ, meaning that if you have a Pastor with long hair, he is dishonoring Christ.  I don't want such a Pastor.  According to verse 5, if a woman prays or prophesies having her head uncovered, she dishonors her head.  Verse 3 just told us her head is "the man," meaning her husband.  This clearly shows that the hair length is a sign we are under submission to our spiritual head, and when a man has long hair or a woman has short hair, they dishonor their head.  It has nothing to do with homosexuals or heathen worship.  It states in verse 7 that a man "indeed ought not to cover his head."  That is telling me as a man, I ought not have long hair.  This is an ordinance, or something taught by Paul, and back  in verse 2, he tells us to keep his ordinances.  There is more that can be said about this, but I am focusing on what the Bible is teaching us we are to do concerning hair length, so I am going to try to stay focused on that aspect.

 

11  Nevertheless, neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

12  For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

13  Judge in yourselves:  is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? 

 

Notice that the Bible says I am to judge this matter in myself.  I have the Biblical right to judge if it is comely for a woman to pray to God if she has short hair.  I just wanted to point that out.  I can do that, even though they are another man's servants.  I am judging according to an ordinance God gave us through the Apostle Paul.  It has zero to do with personal preference.

 

14  Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair; it is a shame unto him?

 

The Bible states that it is shameful for a man to have long hair.  The Bible is the Word of God.   This is the New Testament.  It is a New Testament teaching, and therefore, it is an eternal truth I am to follow, as Paul already told me, right before giving us this passage back in verse 2, I am to "keep the ordinances" that he delivered to us. 

 

15  But if a woman have long hair; it is a glory to her:  for her hair is given her for a covering. 

 

This is a very important verse, because it tells us the woman's long hair is her covering.  It is not a veil, as many teach.  There is nothing wrong with a woman wearing a veil, but if she has long hair, her head is already covered.

 

16  But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

 

Paul has just given us his judgment in the matter of hair length, and even given us permission to judge it within ourselves if a woman is comely if she prays or prophesies with her head uncovered.  We know that when a man has long hair, he dishonors Christ when he prays or prophesies, and a woman dishonors her husband when she has short hair.  At the same time, this is not mentioned as being a sin unto death.  The strongest word used is a shame.  Therefore, if someone wants to be contentious, and will not obey this ordinance given by God and delivered by Paul, you are not going to suffer eternal damnation for your choice to disobey.  I won't go to a church with a leader who does something that is shameful to Christ.  That is my position. 

 

Will the way we dress save us?  Our good works alone can't save us, but we can do things that condemn us, like doing something we may think we have freedom to do, but that is offensive to others.  Notice what it says in Romans 14:21-22.

 

21  It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

22  Hast thou faith?  have it to thyself before God.  Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 

 

It was brought up by another person that one's ministry may be hindered if a Pastor has long hair and tattoos.  Clearly that is true, as many of us will judge that to be contrary to scripture.  The man may be contentious, and say that since he is saved by grace, he feels free to have long hair, just as the woman many feel ok with having short hair, and maybe even wearing pants to church or anywhere for that matter..  I only bring that up because you brought it up Fresno Joe, but the Bible makes it clear that if you go around doing something others in the church are offended by, though it may not be unclean to you, it can bring condemnation upon you.  "Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth."  Before we get into how impossible it is to please others all the time, and there is no question it is, that doesn't mean the scripture is made null and void, and we aren't capable of doing our best.  God knows our heart, and he knows when we are doing our best, or just making excuses to justify our wrong behavior. 

 

If we are going into the topic of outward appearance, there is a lot more I could say about it.  I could show how even those who claim it doesn't matter will at times say something is wrong about another person's appearance, like in the case where two women came against a woman for the dress she wore to church being too revealing.  Who are they to judge another man's servant?  They did this while calling others a legalist.  We had a thread about "Christian nudists."  I believe that is wrong, and so did just about everyone, but who are we to judge another man's servant based on outward appearance?  Putting on apparel doesn't save us.  While people claim we are not under the law, they sure will pull out the law to come against adultery or homosexuality.  If the person claims to be a Christian, who are we to judge another man's servant.  The law of Moses allows for polygamy, but people don't mind calling that a sin when the Bible is silent on the matter.  Who are you to judge another man's servant?  What people do is pick and choose all the time what things they can tolerate and what they cannot, what they like and what they don't like, and when convenient, they discount the Word, and when it helps them, they stand on the Word.  Anyone that disputes that, I would be happy to meet in the Soap Box, and I will lay out my case of this blatant hypocrisy for all to see.  I hope you will be more noble than the people of Thessalanica, and search the scriptures, because they clearly are not teaching what you are on hair length, clothing or tattoos. 

[Guest Butero]

@ Angels4U.  I wouldn't attend either of those men's church for the reasons I just laid out in post #109.  You are taking that scripture out of context.  It is speaking of the fact David wasn't a tall man and didn't look like a king in that way.  It is not dealing with blatant disobedience to scripture.  For instance, God gave the priests garments to wear when they entered the holy of holies.  If I took it like you are presenting it, they could walk right in to the inner court wearing something else, and God wouldn't notice because he looks on the heart.  A lot of people misuse that scripture in 2 Samuel 16:7.