Peter on the Last Days - Part Two

[Last Daze]

 

the teaching of the rapture is an extra biblical teaching.

An extra-biblical teaching is something which is not found in the Bible.  But the Rapture is indeed the Blessed Hope of the Church, so perhaps you need to go back and study the Rapture (1 Thess 4:13-18):

 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

No one reading Acts chapter 3 (other than Omegaman) will even imagine that Peter has to say anything about this.  As to a post-Tribulation Rapture, one has to really strain at Scripture to come up with that scenario.

The Blessed Hope is for all who believe in Jesus Christ.  It is the promise of eternal life beyond this temporary existence.  It is NOT the rapture.

If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.  1 Corinthians 15:19

There's a hope in Christ beyond this life.  It's called the blessed hope.

I think you could benefit from an eschatological reboot.

[ENOCH2010]

 

the teaching of the rapture is an extra biblical teaching.

An extra-biblical teaching is something which is not found in the Bible.  But the Rapture is indeed the Blessed Hope of the Church, so perhaps you need to go back and study the Rapture (1 Thess 4:13-18):

 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

No one reading Acts chapter 3 (other than Omegaman) will even imagine that Peter has to say anything about this.  As to a post-Tribulation Rapture, one has to really strain at Scripture to come up with that scenario.

Ezra, the so called pre-trib rapture Scripture that you attached here plainly tells us who the Lord brings down with Him in vs. 14. It's all the dead in Christ, not raptured saints. The so called rapture Scripture is a perfect picture of the resurrection/rapture happening at the second coming, as described in Rev.20.

[Ezra]

Since Christ's return is 

plainly stated 

as happening 

in the same way

 as His ascension we know that His return goes like this:

• Christ comes in the clouds (resurrection / rapture)
• He descends (with His army)
• He returns to earth

Christ is the one descending.  Those who belong to Christ put on immortality and are gathered together to Him.  He's coming down and we're going up to meet Him (nanoseconds as you say).  Then He returns to earth.  There is no "up and down at the same time".  You should make an honest effort to understand other people's viewpoints instead of assuming things that you then discredit.  Otherwise, your motives appear suspect.

Here's the reason why the above scenario is AN IMPOSSIBILITY (and I am not misunderstanding or misrepresenting anyone). The Marriage of the Lamb must take place in Heaven where all the saints are present, and ONLY AFTER THAT does Christ descend from Heaven. Therefore the Rapture is long before the Second Coming:

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)

[Ezra]

.5. The Rapture is a doctrine pertaining to the ultimate salvation of the Church (Jew and Gentile in one Body).

The rapture follows the resurrection.  They can't be separated.  Its a time when all who are Christ's put on immortality, OT & NT saints.

That is not even being disputed.  What is being disputed is whether or not it is even possible for the Rapture, the Resurrection, and the Second Coming to be SIMULTANEOUS.  The reason it is impossible is shown above WITH SCRIPTURE.

[Last Daze]

 

Since Christ's return is 

plainly stated 

as happening 

in the same way

 as His ascension we know that His return goes like this:

• Christ comes in the clouds (resurrection / rapture)
• He descends (with His army)
• He returns to earth

Christ is the one descending.  Those who belong to Christ put on immortality and are gathered together to Him.  He's coming down and we're going up to meet Him (nanoseconds as you say).  Then He returns to earth.  There is no "up and down at the same time".  You should make an honest effort to understand other people's viewpoints instead of assuming things that you then discredit.  Otherwise, your motives appear suspect.

Here's the reason why the above scenario is AN IMPOSSIBILITY (and I am not misunderstanding or misrepresenting anyone). The Marriage of the Lamb must take place in Heaven where all the saints are present, and ONLY AFTER THAT does Christ descend from Heaven. Therefore the Rapture is long before the Second Coming:

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

 

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

 

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

 

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

 

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

 

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

 

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

 

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

 

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

 

 

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)

 

How do any of those verses pertain to your argument?  Do you not understand that when Christ returns, those who are His put on immortality?  You agreed in another post that time is nothing to an immortal so why do you keep insisting that the marriage supper forces "a long time" between Christ coming in the clouds and His descent to earth?  Everyone attending the supper is immortal.  Again, what is time to an immortal?

Please address this specific question with relevant scripture and explain how the verses you use are relevant.

How does the marriage supper, being attended only by immortals, force a long time span between Christ's coming in the clouds and His descent to earth?

I might be wrong.  I've been wrong before but you're not going to persuade me with contradictions.  I have a low threshold when it comes to cognitive dissonance.  So, as clearly and succinctly as you are able to, please answer the question.

[Last Daze]

.5. The Rapture is a doctrine pertaining to the ultimate salvation of the Church (Jew and Gentile in one Body).

The rapture follows the resurrection.  They can't be separated.  Its a time when all who are Christ's put on immortality, OT & NT saints.

That is not even being disputed.  What is being disputed is whether or not it is even possible for the Rapture, the Resurrection, and the Second Coming to be SIMULTANEOUS.  The reason it is impossible is shown above WITH SCRIPTURE.

It was the immortality part that was relevant.  Once you understand that, you have no trouble understanding how it's possible for Christ's return to happen just like His ascension, probably within minutes, if not seconds.  Who said anything about "simultaneous".  Not me.  It happens just like His ascension.

They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”  Acts 1:11

How long did His ascension take Ezra?

[Ezra]

I might be wrong.  I've been wrong before but you're not going to persuade me with contradictions.  I have a low threshold when it comes to cognitive dissonance.  So, as clearly and succinctly as you are able to, please answer the question.

Nothing complicated here.  You are proposing a scenario where the Resurrection/Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ TO EARTH are simultaneous.  So how would (1) the Marriage of the Lamb IN HEAVEN AND (2) the Judgment Seat of Christ judgment IN HEAVEN be even possible?  Immortality has no bearing on this at all. 

[Last Daze]

 

I might be wrong.  I've been wrong before but you're not going to persuade me with contradictions.  I have a low threshold when it comes to cognitive dissonance.  So, as clearly and succinctly as you are able to, please answer the question.

Nothing complicated here.  You are proposing a scenario where the Resurrection/Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ TO EARTH are simultaneous.  So how would (1) the Marriage of the Lamb IN HEAVEN AND (2) the Judgment Seat of Christ judgment IN HEAVEN be even possible?  Immortality has no bearing on this at all. 

Again, more rhetoric and nothing of substance.  I see you've abandoned your "long period of time" argument and replaced it with an "in heaven" exception as if that is supposed change things.  You need to reflect on the implications of what "immortal" and "outside of time" means.  I know that we're finite beings and struggle with the concept but give it a try.  Maybe Google it or ask Bopeep for a link.

Not only did you fail to answer the first question, you persisted in misrepresenting my position by using the word "simultaneous" after I clearly stated that that is not my view.  Why did you do that?  Do you feel that it gives you more credibility to attack someone's view once that you've deliberately misrepresented it to your liking?  Actually, it gives you less among those who are interested in a reasoned discussion.

The issue of immortality has complete bearing on and absolutely negates your objections (either of time or space) to the resurrection / rapture and return of Christ happening in the same day. 

[Omegaman 3.0]

Some people just are argumenative. They have a pattern of stating an idea, and expecting it (at least is seems) as an understood fact. They attempt to bully understanding into existence, by defining terms their way, and if they can get those terms accepted, then they can can proceed as if they have established some fact.

For example, Let's say I were to define a miracle as a violation of the laws of science. which is attributed to a supernatural cause. It might be that no one would find that definition objectionable. If I were to later make the statement, that no law of science has ever been violated, it might be that no one can produce verifiable evidence that a law of science has been violated. In fact, it is said that a law of science, is a law because it has never been observed to have been violated. Now, with such assertions and definitions in place, I can say something like: "Since we know that no laws of science are violated, and a miracle is a violation of a law of science, then we know that miracles do not, in fact, exist, or at the very least, no one has ever observed a miracle.

I could then strut off, claiming that I have just proven my case.

This happens (in principle) in this topic too frequently. A person will make some declaration as though it is a fact. They will make assumptions, the truth of which has not been established, The will define doctrines into existence, by making assertions that they believe should be assumed to be true, just as they believe they are true, because they have just assumed them to be true without proof, in their minds it is just a true, indisputable fact. If you try to dispute it, it is obvious to them, that you are just wrong!

Let's take the example of an idea I have heard from time to time, along the line that the marriage supper of the lamb is taking place in heaven, and since the lamb is getting hitched to the church, the church has to be in heaven. Since this is taking place during the tribulation, the church has to be absent on earth, during the tribulation. And if she is absent during the tribulation, then she has to have been raptured out of the earth, before the tribulation.

Now, lest I be accused of misstating someone's argument, let me say that I am not quoting any specific individual. This is just a line of reasoning I have heard stated from time to time.

However that basic line of reasoning is stated in actual words, what I am about to say, might apply in many forms of this argument.

1. The Book of Revelation does not state that the marriage supper is in Heaven
2. The Book of Revelation does not state that the marriage supper of the Lamb, occurs during the Tribulation.

Rev 19:11-16:

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 
13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 
14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 
15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”a He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 
16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Now, this above passage is clearly not the tribulation, this is the wrath of God after the tribulation. This is Jesus making war on His enemies.

All well and good of course, but when is this scene taking place?

It is right on the heels of this:

6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:

“Hallelujah!
For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
7 Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear.”
(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)

9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

Now, do we really wan't to presume to insert, that there are 7 years in between this time, when the time for the wedding of the lamb has come, and this conquering King of Kings and His armies are waging war?

Now, I am not through with dealing with this marriage supper thing, I have dinner waiting and getting cold, if I put too much in one post, your eyes will glaze over, lol, so I will be back shortly to pick up the topic. See ya in a few!

[Omegaman 3.0]

oops, sorry, got distracted by other duties, will have to pick it up tomorrow I guess