Question about praying to Saints in churches.

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, you need to demonstrate from Scripture one place where prayer to God (supplication, intercession, praise, confession of sin, etc)  is not considered an act of worship.

Well pointing out that you are not really honest about this is true, whether you can face up to  it or not.    You have to resort to the most convoluted and nonsensical logic, because being a Catholic Apologist is more important to you than truth.   If you were a Christian, you would see how deranged RCC theology is.

Here we see it again... you demand others to defend themselves with scripture.

 

On 12/9/2015, 4:12:50, shiloh357 said:

Where does the Bible say that it is wrong to beat your wife???  Where does the Bible mention gang rape as a sin??    I don't have to provide chapter and verse in order to state the obvious.  

Worship is comprised of many different things.  Praise, supplication, intercessory prayer (to God alone), singing, dancing, and prayer and there are different kinds of prayer.   Prayer is a part of worship and everyone knows that.

Praying to saints is not biblical worship, but it is worship.  The Bible sets God as the only object of our prayers.  We are never told to pray to anyone else.   That's because prayer is a facet of worship.  

You are trying weasel around the obvious. 

Yet when asked to do exactly the same thing, that is to defend your position with scripture you refuse and start using inflammatory language

 

2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

First of all, to the original point about those in heaven not being part of the Body of Christ, I used the Scripture YOU provided as the evidence.   I pointed to the fact that Paul's analogy of "the Body of Christ"  was addressed to Christians on earth and was meant to address the ministry roles of individual believers.   Paul's point was that everyone's role is important even if it appears to be insignificant.   The guy who mows the church lawn has a part that is just as important as the Pastor, or the Deacon.

The passage that speaks to the Body of Christ never locates the Body of Christ anywhere but on earth.   I addressed the fact that human relationships change.   To illustrate the point I addressed the change that occurs in the marriage covenant when a person dies.   I was drawing on Jesus' words about marriage in Matt. 22:30 where Jesus says that people in heaven are not married.    So if the marriage covenant, God first and most important institution is only applicable to people on earth, how much more so would that apply to a simple ministry analogy???   Paul is using the Body of Christ's analogy to make a point about the earthly relationship of believers.   He is not addressing those who are in heaven.  
 

Again, I have addressed it using the verses YOU provided and so the onus is not on me to  come up with separate Scriptures.   I live by the standards  I erect.   What YOU need to provide is a passage that locates the Body of Christ in Heaven.   Good luck.
 

I have provided all of the necessary support that anyone with any theological aptitude could understand.  I am not reading anything into Scripture at all.   I just refuse to be the RCC's intellectual puppet.

So you are saying that Paul is only speaking in terms of analogy when saying we are members of the body of Christ. So you don't believe Christians are members of the body of Christ?

 

[Guest shiloh357]

10 minutes ago, Judas Machabeus said:

Here we see it again... you demand others to defend themselves with scripture.

 

 

Yes, if the claim is being made that prayer is not worship, then such a claim should be supportable from the Bible.   Asking for that is not unreasonable, since one is making a biblical claim.

 

Quote

Yet when asked to do exactly the same thing, that is to defend your position with scripture you refuse and start using inflammatory language

I have never refused to defend my position with Scripture.   I use what Scripture is presented by you and littleflower. To say I didn't use Scripture is a lie.   I don't pit the Bible against itself. I dont' quote Scripture to refute other Scripture.  You quoted from I Cor. 12 about the body of Christ and I used that Scripture to point out that Paul was talking about ministry between believers on earth.  No claim is made that this applies to believers in heaven and no Scripture indicates that the Body of Christ is in heaven.   That is an assumption you are relying on.   If tested, you cannot provide ONE text from Scripture to support that claim.   You have to go outside the Bible to support that.  Furthermore, had you been paying attention I have eluded to Jesus teaching on marriage in heaven and I also alluded to Hebrews 4:16 which tells us that we can approach God's throne ourselves to obtain help from God, personally.

Quote

So you are saying that Paul is only speaking in terms of analogy when saying we are members of the body of Christ. So you don't believe Christians are members of the body of Christ?

Paul drew on the human body as analogy to illustrate the relational aspect of ministry in the Body of Christ.   His point is that those who are in vocational ministry or in the more visible aspects of ministry (Pastors, elders, deacons) should be seen as more important than the church secretary or the janitor or the building and grounds maintenance team.   They all have a valuable part to play in how the church functions and those who work behind the scenes keep the church running like a well oiled machine.    The passage is about Christians operating in their spiritual gifts. Those gifts are necessary down here, not up in heaven.

In heaven, we are sinless, and there is no evidence in Scripture that any person other than God can hear us in heaven.

But all of that is really just a distraction from the truth that whose pray to saints are idolaters, not Christians.  When one looks at the texts of these prayers, they are replacing the Lord with the saints, asking these  so-called "saints" for help and guidance and strength and peace, etc.   They are asking "saints"  for what they are supposed to be asking of the Lord.   It contradicts Scripture which states that we are to boldly approach God's throne to ask for help.

You can pray to saints and go to hell as an idolater, or you can be an authentic New Testament Christian who loves Jesus and prays to Him.

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

But all of that is really just a distraction from the truth that whose pray to saints are idolaters, not Christians.  When one looks at the texts of these prayers, they are replacing the Lord with the saints, asking these  so-called "saints" for help and guidance and strength and peace, etc.   They are asking "saints"  for what they are supposed to be asking of the Lord.   It contradicts Scripture which states that we are to boldly approach God's throne to ask for help.

You can pray to saints and go to hell as an idolater, or you can be an authentic New Testament Christian who loves Jesus and prays to Him.

This is the model of prayer so instructed by God-
Mt 6:9-13
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily
bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
KJV
God's instruction is being upheld in the above statement of Shiloh...   Love, Steven
 

[Guest Thallasa]

6 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

I have nothing to learn from those who belong to an apostate, hell-bound "church."

I am  going to press the ignore button ; One can spout scripture till the cows come home ,but the devil can do that too . It does not make you a Chrstian , in fact bible idolatry is a common, one, used by the anti -christs, to trip up people whose hearts are full of the Spirit of God ,  while theirs is full of venom .

[Guest shiloh357]

15 minutes ago, Thallasa said:

I am  going to press the ignore button ; One can spout scripture till the cows come home ,but the devil can do that too . It does not make you a Chrstian , in fact bible idolatry is a common, one, used by the anti -christs, to trip up people whose hearts are full of the Spirit of God ,  while theirs is full of venom .

I dont' care if you ignore me or not.  No one who prays to idols is a Christian and I take no instructions from idolaters.  The RCC is full of a spirit, but not the Spirit of God.

[hmbld]

2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

I dont' care if you ignore me or not.  No one who prays to idols is a Christian and I take no instructions from idolaters.  The RCC is full of a spirit, but not the Spirit of God.

No Christian is yet perfect, do you really mean a person can be misled, misunderstand a point, or just plain buy into one of satan's lies and if they do they are not a Christian?  Surely even you could be wrong about one or two points in the bible and still be a Christian. Are we not instructed that love is better than to have all knowledge and be right all the time?  You go beyond just defending God's word. I say this with respect Shiloh, I have learned much from you. I thank you for your time and effort here,  lately I've begun wondering what it profits me to be right, surely I should desire to grow and help others grow and mature, much more than being right.  I don't think I've even begun that road yet, but it crosses my mind more all the time. 

[Guest shiloh357]

2 minutes ago, hmbld said:

No Christian is yet perfect, do you really mean a person can be misled, misunderstand a point, or just plain buy into one of satan's lies and if they do they are not a Christian?  Surely even you could be wrong about one or two points in the bible and still be a Christian. Are we not instructed that love is better than to have all knowledge and be right all the time?  You go beyond just defending God's word. I say this with respect Shiloh, I have learned much from you. I thank you for your time and effort here,  lately I've begun wondering what it profits me to be right, surely I should desire to grow and help others grow and mature, much more than being right.  I don't think I've even begun that road yet, but it crosses my mind more all the time. 

It's one thing to be in error about certain things the Bible teaches.    It is quite another to base your faith on "traditions" and the words of your leaders at the expense of scripture.

Praying to saints usurps God's authority in our lives because these prayers to saints are requesting redemptive blessings that come from God alone.   They are not based on a misreading of Scripture.  They don't come from Scripture at all, but from extra-biblical teachings of the RCC.   It is helpful to know that the RCC places the Bible at the lowest point in their hierarchy of authority.  The Pope is first, Sacred Traditions come second and the Bible is third.  

I am very hard on this kind of stuff because it is so blatantly pagan and is being held up as "Christian." 

[simplejeff]

On 12/5/2015 at 8:28 AM, layhoma said:

I have been attending this Church for several years.  I believed it's an Anglican based church. 99% of the praise & worship services I felt comfortable with except for the 1%. I tried to disregard this incident that happened about 3-4 times but I felt a great sense of unease on my last service. 

The preacher had a long sermon about praying to St Andrew ....etc Natually my mind was blocked. Suffice to say I'm a bible following Christian. I hope I don't offend any bros or sis who are catholic but I choose to believe that the only prayers I'm allowed to make are those directed to the Triune God. Trinity. It is extremely challenging for me to accept the concept of praying to a Saint so he could more effectively relay our prayers to the Almighty. That is the concept no ? 

I need your sharing and opinion on this subject. You don't have to reveal your denomination, it's irrelevant. This isn't a debate. I'm just here to seek enlightenment and whether my reaction is justified. Thanks

Yes,  your dismay is from YHWH, (GOD),  in your conscience, to keep you set apart to Himself, and not led astray.

[Zoltan777]

On 05/12/2015 at 5:15 PM, other one said:

from my personal view I believe this is called necromancy....    and it is very much frowned upon in both new and old covenants.

You have got the answer sir. Praying to Saints means contacting the deads.

[Reinitin]

On 12/5/2015 at 8:28 AM, layhoma said:

I have been attending this Church for several years.  I believed it's an Anglican based church. 99% of the praise & worship services I felt comfortable with except for the 1%. I tried to disregard this incident that happened about 3-4 times but I felt a great sense of unease on my last service. 

The preacher had a long sermon about praying to St Andrew ....etc Natually my mind was blocked. Suffice to say I'm a bible following Christian. I hope I don't offend any bros or sis who are catholic but I choose to believe that the only prayers I'm allowed to make are those directed to the Triune God. Trinity. It is extremely challenging for me to accept the concept of praying to a Saint so he could more effectively relay our prayers to the Almighty. That is the concept no ? 

I need your sharing and opinion on this subject. You don't have to reveal your denomination, it's irrelevant. This isn't a debate. I'm just here to seek enlightenment and whether my reaction is justified. Thanks

As flesh we are always looking for ways around God. People try lieing, stealing,  idolitry, forms of which craft,  taping energy fields, trying to align through zodiac windows of oppurtunity. Blood sacrafices, even practices of consulting the dead and commanding demons. Just because people do it and sometimes it works for them it doesn't mean any of those ways are good.

Jesus Said" I am the way, the truth and the life.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Reinitin