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angels4u

What is the doctrine of the Trinity?

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5 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Yeah, I like the peanut analogy better than other physical ones, simply because it uses the same terminology for the part and the whole. In the last image, the three peanuts are the one peanut, which sort of interrupts the thinking that it is illogical that 3 can equal 1! This sort of language though, is not unfamiliar in English.

For example, "the three persons are the one God", sounds wrong to some people, but these same people would not take issue with a linguistically similar phrase "the ten people are the one committee"!

I should give credit, where credit is due. I created the graphic, but the concept I got from Pastor Kurt Dahlin, currently of Breakwater Church in Redondo Beach, CA. He is a smart and gifted teacher, but not perfect, after all, he was, last I knew, a pre-tribulation raptureist, LOL,

Sorry, I could not resist!

Here is a t-shirt for you Omega.

616XtFq7GTL._UX342_.jpg

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7 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings other one,

 

I agree that God the Father, our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God and the Holy Spirit are revealed to us in the Bible and have a special relationship with each other. Yes we need all three of them, but the definition of the Trinity, especially in the Athanasian Creed, is different to what is taught in the Scriptures. Also your explanation is not Scriptural either.

 

The following is one example of Christ’s teaching on this subject:

John 17:1-3 (KJV): 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

 

There is one God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

 

Kind regards Trevor

You omitted part of Jesus' prayer:

Joh 17:20  "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;

Joh 17:21  that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Joh 17:22  And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:

Joh 17:23  I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

Joh 17:24  "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Joh 17:25  O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.

Joh 17:26  And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

So Jesus is in the Father, and the Father is in Jesus.  They reside in each other just as the Holy Spirit and Jesus reside in all true believers;  And the Father living in Jesus also resides in us.

.  Yes it is mind boggling.  We do call Father God, and Jesus His Son.  But this only explains relationship.  It does not say Who they are.  John 1 says 

Joh 1:1 NKJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:2  He was in the beginning with God.

Joh 1:3  All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Joh 1:4  In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Joh 1:14  And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Joh 1:32  And John bore witness, saying, "I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him.

Joh 1:33  I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'

And so we see Father God,  Word God, Word became flesh (God-Man Jesus), and Holy Spirit.  

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I have a question.  Can we say the Trinity is one Spirit with 3 souls?  I think of the soul being the distinct personality and attributes of the person.  But since God is Spirit their essence is Spirit, even though the Word became flesh and Jesus is both flesh, human from Mary, and Spirit from Word, begotten of Father God.  The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and took part in the Incarnation as well.   

Or is one Spirit with 3 souls way off base?  I realize that this is not the way its traditionally expressed and I am familiar with the 3 creeds.  But my mind often takes a left turn and looks at things from another perspective.

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20 minutes ago, Willa said:

I have a question.  Can we say the Trinity is one Spirit with 3 souls?  

No we cannot. Human beings have souls, and when Christ took human form, He had a sinless soul (as well as a spirit). He referred to both.  At the same time, He was in the Father, and the Father was in Him.

But the Father is pure Spirit and the Holy Spirit is also pure Spirit, yet distinct from the Father. It is not for us to either speculate or to extrapolate to *comprehend* the incomprehensible.

On the other hand, man is a tripartite being -- spirit, soul, and body. Those who do not have the Holy Spirit have dead spirits. But the spirit is given primacy over the soul and the body, because only the spirit communicates with God and understands the things of God.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole (1) spirit and (2) soul and (3) body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess 5:23)

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2 hours ago, bopeep1909 said:

Here is a t-shirt for you Omega.

616XtFq7GTL._UX342_.jpg

Clever! Whoever came up with that, deserves credit!

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Fundamental Christianity generally teaches that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Trinity are one, that is, united, in one body.

The word Trinity is not mentioned once in Scripture in the entire Bible. The word Godhead is mentioned three times in; (Acts 17:29; Rom. 1:20; Col. 2:9). The term Godhead simply means that which is divine. It is used of Jesus Himself in (Col. 2:9-10), "For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily," "And ye are complete IN HIM which is the head of all principality and power." (Jesus overcame all principalities and powers by His death and resurrection). We are complete in Him only in unity as He, the Father, and the Holy Ghost are one in unity and not bodily.

The word Trinity means the union of the three persons in the Godhead, each who IS called God and Lord in various Scriptures throughout the Bible, and who are "Self-existent" and "Eternal." In Psalm 110:1; Matt. 22:44; Zech. 2:10-11 we have the Father and the Son both called "Lord," and when we read Ex. 16:7 with Heb. 3:7-8 and Isa. 6:8-9 with Acts 28:25 and Ex. 17:7 with Heb. 3:7-9, and Jer. 31:31-34 with Heb. 10:15-16 these Scriptures prove that the Holy Spirit is also called "Lord." The Holy Spirit is distinctly called God in Acts 5:3-4. Here Peter here askes Ananias, why he kept back part of the price . . . why Ananias let Satan fill his heart to lie to the Holy Ghost . . . and Peter goes on to say Ananias had not lied to men but to God."

God the Father, God the Son, AND God the Holy Ghost, in one (unified) Godhead or divinity, so that all three persons are one in unity and eternal substance, but three separate and distinct persons as to indivuality. Three separate and distinct persons are spoken of in (1 John 5:7). Jesus Himself declared and taught us to go forth and baptize in the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy Ghost (Matt. 28:19).

Scriptures such as "one Lord" (Deut 6:4) and "one God" (Mal. 2:10) means unitied, or united in one. Similarly, the scriptures "They shall be one flesh" (Gen. 2:24); "the people are one" (Gen. 11:6), do not mean all the people are one in body.

In the beginning God revealed the Godhead as consisting of more than one person. In Gen. 2:26 "And God said, LET US make man in OUR IMAGE, after OUR LIKENESS." Also in Gen. 3:22 He plainly said, "The man is become AS ONE OF US." The phrase "as one of" means "like each person of several persons of the same kind," as proved wherever the statement "as one of" is found in Scripture (Gen. 19:14; 42:27; 49:16; Ex. 12:48; Lev. 19:34; 24:22; Num. 12:12; 2 Sam. 13:13; 14:13; Job 12:4; ect., no person uses such a phrase and not refer to more than one person who could make "us." If God refers to the Godhead as "us" we should take it that He knows what He is talking about and that there are more than one person in the Godhead.

In John 1:1 we have the statement, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word became flesh and dwelt among us in John 1:14. We know the Word God took upon Himself a flesh and bone body and became Jesus. We must ask ourselves which God was the Word with in the beginning in John 1:1? He was with the Father for in (1 Cor. 3:23; 11:3) Paul said that "Christ was God's and God was "the head of Christ." Jesus dwelt amongst us whilst the Father remained in Heaven.

Acts 2:33-39 referes to three separate persons of the deity: It is said of Jesus [one person], "Therefore being BY THE RIGHT HAND of God exalted and having RECIEVED OF THE FATHER [another person] the promise OF THE HOLY GHOST [a third person] He hath shed forth THIS [the Holy Ghost] which ye now SEE and HEAR." Thus TWO persons, Jesus in His flesh and bone body, and the Father who is spirit, stayed in Heaven sitting side by side, and the Holy Ghost (a third person) came from the two in Heaven to take the place of Jesus among men.

If God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are "one God" in one body, all the Scriptures mentioned above are lies, and if they are lies then the whole Bible cannot be believed.

The fact that Jesus took upon Himself a flesh and bone body and that He was resurrected and STILL HAS His flesh and bone body and sits at the Fathers right hand in Heaven in it, (Mark 16:19; Luke 22:69), is proved by His statement to His disciples; "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have" (Luke 24:39); and to Thomas Jesus said; "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing" (John 20:27). And Thomas answered and said unto Him, My Lord AND my God" (John 21:28).

How could Jesus, a self confessed flesh and bones being, be sitting at the Fathers right hand [the Father being spirit] in Heaven and be "one" in body with the Father? Jesus Himself said above, "Spirit doth not have flesh and bone as ye see me have." If Jesus and the Father are "one" in body, then the Father must be flesh and bone, or Jesus must be spirit, and this would be a lie. Jesus will have His flesh and bone body for all eternity (Zech. 13:6).

And what was Jesus saying and asking the Father when He prayed to the Father this prayer;

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, AS WE ARE" (John 17:11).

And, "That they MAY BE ONE; as thou, Father art IN ME, and I IN THEE, that they MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may believe that thou has sent me" (John 17:21).

"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, even AS WE ARE ONE: I in them, and thou IN ME, that they may be made perfect IN ONE; and that the world may know etc., (John 17:22-23). "And I have declared unto them thy name, and I will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, AND I IN THEM" (John 17:26).

Jesus prayed to the Father to keep His disciples and all His followers "one in unity" as He and the Father were. He never asked the Father to allow all the followers and disciples all to get inside one of them and form "one body" as fundamental Christianity wrongly teaches Jesus and the Father are.

Jesus upbraided the disciples not for their misunderstanding, but for their unbelief (Mark 16:13-14), and he will upbraid us as well if we do not believe who He, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are. They are one in unity not body as these plain simple Scriptures state.

Jesus said;

"And the Father Himself, [one person] which hath sent me [another person, hath born WITNESS OF ME. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape (JOhn 5:37). How can this Scripture be true if they are "ONE" as fundamental Christianity teaches?

Jesus instructs us to "Search the Scriptures; for in the ye THINK ye have eternal life: and they which testify of me" (John 5:39). How can we pray to a God if we do not know who He is? Jesus said, "Ask me nothing. Verily verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father IN MY NAME, He will give it you"(John 16:23). The Father never refuses Jesus anything, so when we ask the Father in the Name of Jesus, to the Father its like Jesus asking the Father Himself. They are two separate individual self existant beings, sitting beside each other in Heaven. This is as clear and as simple to believe as any other doctrin in the Bible. Our plain common sense tells us that one person cannot sit beside himself, and God would not expect us to believe He sits beside Himself in two types of bodies, constantly transforming Himself at will, asking Himself questions and invoking prayers in His Jesus Name, and then answering them to His Jesus self as the Father. To believe this theory of Satan, which is continued by men is plain madness.

A God who could not make Himself clear, or had to be interpreted and be declared a mystery is no God at all. Let us believe, like sensible men, that God can make Himself understood. He will hold men responsible for what He says, not for what men interpret His words to say. He has a right to judge men in the end if they constantly make Him false in all that He says, if they listen to satanic theories. "He that rejecteth me, and recieveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" (John 12:48; Rev. 20:11-15). This should be enough for men to quit the foolishness of changing God's Word to mean anything they want it to mean? It is the height of ignorance for anyone to claim to know God better than He has revealed Himself to be.

The Trinity consists of three divine beings each with their own separate body, soul, and Spirit as over 500 Scriptures prove. To deny this and believe that God is three persons in one body is to believe the theories of men which cannot be supported Scripturally

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I am not sure I recall things said is scripture that denoted the Father and the Spirit as having bodies, other than in no literal senses. But I am not here to address that, just to offer somethings for ponderment:

16 Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ? 17 Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread.

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.

John 17: 20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

      22 “The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. 

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22 hours ago, angels4u said:

Trevor , how would you explain John 1:1?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Greetings angels4u,

 

I believe that “The Word” in John 1:1 is a personification similar to the personification of “Wisdom” as a wise woman in Proverbs 8. The Word existed before its full manifestation in Jesus. When Jesus was revealed at the age of 30 he was full of grace and truth. The glory he revealed was a result of his begettal, and the process of this begettal is revealed  in Matthew and Luke, where God the Father is his father, and Mary his mother. 

Luke 1:35 (KJV): And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

 

There are also semi-personifications of “word” in Psalm 33 and Isaiah 55:

Psalm 33:6,9 (KJV): 6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.  9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

 

Isaiah 55:8-11 (KJV): 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

 

There is one God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

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1 hour ago, TrevorL said:

The Word existed before its full manifestation in Jesus.

"The Word existed AS GOD before His manifestation in Jesus." That statement would accurately reflect what is stated in John 1:1. "The Logos was Theos." The Jehovah's Witnesses don't like that so they translated Theos as "a god", which is absurd.

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The information thus gleaned from all this:
The Word of God visits us with The Who of God .... we, who only know this place, where beginning is all that is known,
and are required by truth or realties, the 'IS', God has no such! But greatly more important than the infinite nature of God
'IS' His Person: Father One Person, Son Two Person, The Holy Spirit Three person yet One In Being God The Creator
of all things... For us to make of God an idol or other than what He Truly 'IS' is to bring Him into our understanding to fit
into our conception of Him and low and behold we have an idol ... you see, people, to alter any sense formed by God's
Word in hermeneutic fact is to begin outside of The Possession of God's Word to other... that other is eternal loss of Who
God 'IS'... As we see today the numbers, increasing in dynamic proportions, of those who do not know The Word through
submission to The Holy Spirit and hermeneutical digesting of hard work BUT rather on their own I feel, I think, I believe
authority relegate The Word of God into something other... When they die and are standing before The Living Word,
Jesus, they will receive this statement

Quote

 Mt 7:23


23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
KJV


This the eternal judgement for the separating of God from you called hell... notice I never knew you and it is because
of what was written above!   Love, Steven 

  

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