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What is the doctrine of the Trinity?

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1 hour ago, Ezra said:

"The Word existed AS GOD before His manifestation in Jesus." That statement would accurately reflect what is stated in John 1:1. "The Logos was Theos." The Jehovah's Witnesses don't like that so they translated Theos as "a god", which is absurd.

they seem to do that because the Greek says that  God is "The God" and the second one only says god....   it is my understanding that it is that way in Greek because of the grammar of the language, not because one is lesser or greater than the other.....   I'm not that familiar with all the grammar of Greek so can only take others words about it.  Sometimes deciding who is right gets tricky.   But a lot of it you can research for one's self.

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3 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings angels4u,

 

I believe that “The Word” in John 1:1 is a personification similar to the personification of “Wisdom” as a wise woman in Proverbs 8. The Word existed before its full manifestation in Jesus. When Jesus was revealed at the age of 30 he was full of grace and truth. The glory he revealed was a result of his begettal, and the process of this begettal is revealed  in Matthew and Luke, where God the Father is his father, and Mary his mother. 

Luke 1:35 (KJV): And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

 

There are also semi-personifications of “word” in Psalm 33 and Isaiah 55:

Psalm 33:6,9 (KJV): 6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.  9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

 

Isaiah 55:8-11 (KJV): 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

 

There is one God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

 

Are you JW Trevor?

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1 hour ago, other one said:

they seem to do that because the Greek says that  God is "The God" and the second one only says god....

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

Literal (Berry's Interlinear): In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word.

Since God was the Word, there can be no misunderstanding whatsoever. This of course refers to Christ, since the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, hence the name Immanuel (Emmanuel) = GOD WITH US.

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39 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

Literal (Berry's Interlinear): In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word.

Since God was the Word, there can be no misunderstanding whatsoever. This of course refers to Christ, since the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, hence the name Immanuel (Emmanuel) = GOD WITH US.

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

That TOV is omitted in most translations but basically shows "The, This, That"   That is where they get the Idea that The Θεὸς  is speaking of the Father and without the TOV is speaking of what Jesus was before he was incarnate.

Right or wrong, that is what several of the members and pastors have told me as they visit or I visited with them.

 

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We can assume correctly JWs merely modified the text to fit the JW's false doctrine concerning the Trinity.   Refer to Got Questions "Is the New World Translation a valid version of the Bible?"  which explains that each new edition modifies more texts that are used by Christians to disprove their heresy  that Jesus is not God.  The panel that is said to do the translating remains anonymous.  

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17 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Fundamental Christianity generally teaches that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Trinity are one, that is, united, in one body.

The word Trinity is not mentioned once in Scripture in the entire Bible. The word Godhead is mentioned three times in; (Acts 17:29; Rom. 1:20; Col. 2:9). The term Godhead simply means that which is divine. It is used of Jesus Himself in (Col. 2:9-10), "For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily," "And ye are complete IN HIM which is the head of all principality and power." (Jesus overcame all principalities and powers by His death and resurrection). We are complete in Him only in unity as He, the Father, and the Holy Ghost are one in unity and not bodily.

The word Trinity means the union of the three persons in the Godhead, each who IS called God and Lord in various Scriptures throughout the Bible, and who are "Self-existent" and "Eternal." In Psalm 110:1; Matt. 22:44; Zech. 2:10-11 we have the Father and the Son both called "Lord," and when we read Ex. 16:7 with Heb. 3:7-8 and Isa. 6:8-9 with Acts 28:25 and Ex. 17:7 with Heb. 3:7-9, and Jer. 31:31-34 with Heb. 10:15-16 these Scriptures prove that the Holy Spirit is also called "Lord." The Holy Spirit is distinctly called God in Acts 5:3-4. Here Peter here askes Ananias, why he kept back part of the price . . . why Ananias let Satan fill his heart to lie to the Holy Ghost . . . and Peter goes on to say Ananias had not lied to men but to God."

God the Father, God the Son, AND God the Holy Ghost, in one (unified) Godhead or divinity, so that all three persons are one in unity and eternal substance, but three separate and distinct persons as to indivuality. Three separate and distinct persons are spoken of in (1 John 5:7). Jesus Himself declared and taught us to go forth and baptize in the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy Ghost (Matt. 28:19).

Scriptures such as "one Lord" (Deut 6:4) and "one God" (Mal. 2:10) means unitied, or united in one. Similarly, the scriptures "They shall be one flesh" (Gen. 2:24); "the people are one" (Gen. 11:6), do not mean all the people are one in body.

In the beginning God revealed the Godhead as consisting of more than one person. In Gen. 2:26 "And God said, LET US make man in OUR IMAGE, after OUR LIKENESS." Also in Gen. 3:22 He plainly said, "The man is become AS ONE OF US." The phrase "as one of" means "like each person of several persons of the same kind," as proved wherever the statement "as one of" is found in Scripture (Gen. 19:14; 42:27; 49:16; Ex. 12:48; Lev. 19:34; 24:22; Num. 12:12; 2 Sam. 13:13; 14:13; Job 12:4; ect., no person uses such a phrase and not refer to more than one person who could make "us." If God refers to the Godhead as "us" we should take it that He knows what He is talking about and that there are more than one person in the Godhead.

In John 1:1 we have the statement, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word became flesh and dwelt among us in John 1:14. We know the Word God took upon Himself a flesh and bone body and became Jesus. We must ask ourselves which God was the Word with in the beginning in John 1:1? He was with the Father for in (1 Cor. 3:23; 11:3) Paul said that "Christ was God's and God was "the head of Christ." Jesus dwelt amongst us whilst the Father remained in Heaven.

Acts 2:33-39 referes to three separate persons of the deity: It is said of Jesus [one person], "Therefore being BY THE RIGHT HAND of God exalted and having RECIEVED OF THE FATHER [another person] the promise OF THE HOLY GHOST [a third person] He hath shed forth THIS [the Holy Ghost] which ye now SEE and HEAR." Thus TWO persons, Jesus in His flesh and bone body, and the Father who is spirit, stayed in Heaven sitting side by side, and the Holy Ghost (a third person) came from the two in Heaven to take the place of Jesus among men.

If God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are "one God" in one body, all the Scriptures mentioned above are lies, and if they are lies then the whole Bible cannot be believed.

The fact that Jesus took upon Himself a flesh and bone body and that He was resurrected and STILL HAS His flesh and bone body and sits at the Fathers right hand in Heaven in it, (Mark 16:19; Luke 22:69), is proved by His statement to His disciples; "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have" (Luke 24:39); and to Thomas Jesus said; "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing" (John 20:27). And Thomas answered and said unto Him, My Lord AND my God" (John 21:28).

How could Jesus, a self confessed flesh and bones being, be sitting at the Fathers right hand [the Father being spirit] in Heaven and be "one" in body with the Father? Jesus Himself said above, "Spirit doth not have flesh and bone as ye see me have." If Jesus and the Father are "one" in body, then the Father must be flesh and bone, or Jesus must be spirit, and this would be a lie. Jesus will have His flesh and bone body for all eternity (Zech. 13:6).

And what was Jesus saying and asking the Father when He prayed to the Father this prayer;

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, AS WE ARE" (John 17:11).

And, "That they MAY BE ONE; as thou, Father art IN ME, and I IN THEE, that they MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may believe that thou has sent me" (John 17:21).

"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, even AS WE ARE ONE: I in them, and thou IN ME, that they may be made perfect IN ONE; and that the world may know etc., (John 17:22-23). "And I have declared unto them thy name, and I will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, AND I IN THEM" (John 17:26).

Jesus prayed to the Father to keep His disciples and all His followers "one in unity" as He and the Father were. He never asked the Father to allow all the followers and disciples all to get inside one of them and form "one body" as fundamental Christianity wrongly teaches Jesus and the Father are.

Jesus upbraided the disciples not for their misunderstanding, but for their unbelief (Mark 16:13-14), and he will upbraid us as well if we do not believe who He, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are. They are one in unity not body as these plain simple Scriptures state.

Jesus said;

"And the Father Himself, [one person] which hath sent me [another person, hath born WITNESS OF ME. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape (JOhn 5:37). How can this Scripture be true if they are "ONE" as fundamental Christianity teaches?

Jesus instructs us to "Search the Scriptures; for in the ye THINK ye have eternal life: and they which testify of me" (John 5:39). How can we pray to a God if we do not know who He is? Jesus said, "Ask me nothing. Verily verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father IN MY NAME, He will give it you"(John 16:23). The Father never refuses Jesus anything, so when we ask the Father in the Name of Jesus, to the Father its like Jesus asking the Father Himself. They are two separate individual self existant beings, sitting beside each other in Heaven. This is as clear and as simple to believe as any other doctrin in the Bible. Our plain common sense tells us that one person cannot sit beside himself, and God would not expect us to believe He sits beside Himself in two types of bodies, constantly transforming Himself at will, asking Himself questions and invoking prayers in His Jesus Name, and then answering them to His Jesus self as the Father. To believe this theory of Satan, which is continued by men is plain madness.

A God who could not make Himself clear, or had to be interpreted and be declared a mystery is no God at all. Let us believe, like sensible men, that God can make Himself understood. He will hold men responsible for what He says, not for what men interpret His words to say. He has a right to judge men in the end if they constantly make Him false in all that He says, if they listen to satanic theories. "He that rejecteth me, and recieveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" (John 12:48; Rev. 20:11-15). This should be enough for men to quit the foolishness of changing God's Word to mean anything they want it to mean? It is the height of ignorance for anyone to claim to know God better than He has revealed Himself to be.

The Trinity consists of three divine beings each with their own separate body, soul, and Spirit as over 500 Scriptures prove. To deny this and believe that God is three persons in one body is to believe the theories of men which cannot be supported Scripturally

I don't find anywhere that The Father Son and Holy Spirit are united in one body.  They are one in essence.

es·sence

ˈesəns/

noun

the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character.

"conflict is the essence of drama"

synonyms:quintessence, soul, spirit, nature; More

PHILOSOPHY

a property or group of properties of something without which it would not exist or be what it is.

plural noun: essences

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1 hour ago, Willa said:

I don't find anywhere that The Father Son and Holy Spirit are united in one body.  They are one in essence.

es·sence

ˈesəns/

noun

the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character.

"conflict is the essence of drama"

synonyms:quintessence, soul, spirit, nature; More

PHILOSOPHY

a property or group of properties of something without which it would not exist or be what it is.

plural noun: essences

Scripture does not say they are one in body, they are three separate beings, each in their own bodies. They are one in unity in all things.

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6 hours ago, Ezra said:

"The Word existed AS GOD before His manifestation in Jesus." That statement would accurately reflect what is stated in John 1:1. "The Logos was Theos." The Jehovah's Witnesses don't like that so they translated Theos as "a god", which is absurd.

 

4 hours ago, angels4u said:

Are you JW Trevor?

 

Greetings Ezra and greetings again angels4u,

 

I understand the word “Word” Greek “logos” represents the mind, purpose, the thought behind the spoken word. By saying that the Word was God is stating that the Word is a part of God, completely represents God, and not remote from God. Yes I agree that the NWT “the Word was a god” is a wrong translation.

 

I am aware of two other places where the NWT incorrectly translate a passage in a biased way, and especially in important passages where they seek to establish and support their wrong teaching on other subjects. No I am not a JW and disagree with them on many doctrines including many aspects concerning Jesus, his birth, life, sacrifice and resurrection (they believe that his literal body was not raised but preserved). Also for example I believe in the literal return of Jesus in the near future to sit on David’s throne in Jerusalem for the 1000 years, not his invisible return in 1914 Acts 1:11, 3:19-21, Isaiah 2:1-4.

 

There is one God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

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:emot-heartbeat:

The Father

And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Luke 1:30-33

And The Holy Spirit

Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Luke 1:34-35

And The Almighty

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

Son Of God

But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Matthew 1:20-25

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30 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

Scripture does not say they are one in body, they are three separate beings, each in their own bodies. They are one in unity in all things.

Fundamental Christianity has never taught such a thing!  Nor has Orthodox Christianity.  This is closer to the teaching of mormon cults.  But most of them say the Holy Spirit is "something else" and that only the Father and the Christ had human bodies before they became gods.  And they teach that they are only one in purpose.  You are in grave error if you think that Father God has ever had a body.  Perhaps you studied with mormon missionaries who have confused you.

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