Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[seandavids]

Wonder what the 500'000 Christians who use to live in Mosul Iraq think about the pre-trib doctrine?

well it could only be that they were not found worthy to escape as promised to the church of Philidelphia, they're a bit to dark complected to be found worthy to escape the coming tribulation, I gaurentee when whitebread America starts to feel the discomfort the reality of tribulation will take on a whole new meaning

[Last Daze]

well it could only be that they were not found worthy to escape as promised to the church of Philidelphia, they're a bit to dark complected to be found worthy to escape the coming tribulation,

 

 

I'm guessing (hoping) that's sarcasm?

[wingnut-]

 

 

What is the Purpose of the "Great Tribulation"?

 

 

If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God is testing you to find out if you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.  Deuteronomy 13:1-3

 

He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.  Daniel 12:9-10

 

 

 

==========================================================================

 

The Purpose of the "Great Tribulation" is.....

 

(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

Who? "I"....Jesus.

 

"will go and return to my place".  To return to HIS place, HE had to of left it in the first place.  First Advent/Ascension.

 

"till they": Who are "They"?....The Jews.

 

"acknowledge their offence": what was the Jews Offence?  Rejected the Messiah.

 

"in their affliction": "Their"....The Jews.  "Affliction".....Time of affliction/Time of Jacob's Trouble/the "Great Tribulation".

 

"they will seek me early": They...The Jews.  "Early" is better translated "Earnestly".  They Jewish Remnant will seek HIM Earnestly....@ Bozrah/Petra.

 

 

The purpose of the "Great Tribulation" is to push the Jews to The Wall and for them to Corporately Petition HIM to return....and that they will!!

 

Has nothing whatsoever to do with HIS Bride...."The Church".  They already know HE is......THE KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

 

 

 

Think about it.  This should have all been over with Christ's Sacrifice.... should have ended it; satan had no cards left to play.  But he knows Scripture....satan's only Card left to play is killing the Jewish Remnant before they can Petition HIM to return.

That's his mission!  

 

It will be foiled quite Dramatically and Abruptly.

 

SEE IT ? 

 

 

What I see is something differently than you.  I'm compelled to respond to your post because it was refreshing to see someone actually acknowledge Hosea's prophecy with a pre-trib perspective.  That is what I wish to discuss, and I apologize to Oman for sidetracking this somewhat, although I will at least do so with scripture, and it is still very relevant to the overall discussion.

 

Hosea 2:

¹⁴ “Therefore I am now going to allure her;

    I will lead her into the wilderness

    and speak tenderly to her.

¹⁵ There I will give her back her vineyards,

    and will make the Valley of Achor a door of hope.

There she will respond as in the days of her youth,

    as in the day she came up out of Egypt.

¹⁶ “In that day,” declares the Lord,

    “you will call me ‘my husband’;

    you will no longer call me ‘my master.’

 

I'm curious given some of the information found here, (along with Revelation 12, where we are  told that the woman would be taken out of the serpent's reach for a period of 3 1/2 years) how does one arrive at the conclusion that a group of people can be protected and not protected at the same time?  It appears to me that the Jews will leave and flee to the wilderness, per the first instruction Jesus gives them regarding what to do when they see the abomination of desolation take place.  Matthew 24:15-18.

 

The question to be asked is, who is being beheaded for their belief in Jesus Christ and their refusal to take the mark of the beast while the Jews are being kept from the serpent's reach and spoken tenderly to by Jesus?

 

We are talking about a 42 month period of time, which coincides with the 42 months during which Jerusalem will be handed over to the gentiles (Rev. 11:2) and the 42 months that the beast is given authority.  (Rev. 13:5).

 

It is also notable that in Hosea 2:16 they are told they will call Him 'husband', not master.  This would include the Jews in the wedding supper, which would fit with when scripture places the event.

 

Rev. 21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. ² I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. ³ And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ⁴ ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

 

The place He went to prepare for us, which takes place after the great white throne judgement as clarified by the final verse posted, no more tears, end of the age.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

What is the Purpose of the "Great Tribulation"?

 

 

If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God is testing you to find out if you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.  Deuteronomy 13:1-3

 

He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.  Daniel 12:9-10

 

 

 

==========================================================================

 

The Purpose of the "Great Tribulation" is.....

 

(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

Who? "I"....Jesus.

 

"will go and return to my place".  To return to HIS place, HE had to of left it in the first place.  First Advent/Ascension.

 

"till they": Who are "They"?....The Jews.

 

"acknowledge their offence": what was the Jews Offence?  Rejected the Messiah.

 

"in their affliction": "Their"....The Jews.  "Affliction".....Time of affliction/Time of Jacob's Trouble/the "Great Tribulation".

 

"they will seek me early": They...The Jews.  "Early" is better translated "Earnestly".  They Jewish Remnant will seek HIM Earnestly....@ Bozrah/Petra.

 

 

The purpose of the "Great Tribulation" is to push the Jews to The Wall and for them to Corporately Petition HIM to return....and that they will!!

 

Has nothing whatsoever to do with HIS Bride...."The Church".  They already know HE is......THE KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

 

 

 

Think about it.  This should have all been over with Christ's Sacrifice.... should have ended it; satan had no cards left to play.  But he knows Scripture....satan's only Card left to play is killing the Jewish Remnant before they can Petition HIM to return.

That's his mission!  

 

It will be foiled quite Dramatically and Abruptly.

 

SEE IT ? 

 

 

What I see is something differently than you.  I'm compelled to respond to your post because it was refreshing to see someone actually acknowledge Hosea's prophecy with a pre-trib perspective.  That is what I wish to discuss, and I apologize to Oman for sidetracking this somewhat, although I will at least do so with scripture, and it is still very relevant to the overall discussion.

 

Hosea 2:

¹⁴ “Therefore I am now going to allure her;

    I will lead her into the wilderness

    and speak tenderly to her.

¹⁵ There I will give her back her vineyards,

    and will make the Valley of Achor a door of hope.

There she will respond as in the days of her youth,

    as in the day she came up out of Egypt.

¹⁶ “In that day,” declares the Lord,

    “you will call me ‘my husband’;

    you will no longer call me ‘my master.’

 

I'm curious given some of the information found here, (along with Revelation 12, where we are  told that the woman would be taken out of the serpent's reach for a period of 3 1/2 years) how does one arrive at the conclusion that a group of people can be protected and not protected at the same time?  It appears to me that the Jews will leave and flee to the wilderness, per the first instruction Jesus gives them regarding what to do when they see the abomination of desolation take place.  Matthew 24:15-18.

 

The question to be asked is, who is being beheaded for their belief in Jesus Christ and their refusal to take the mark of the beast while the Jews are being kept from the serpent's reach and spoken tenderly to by Jesus?

 

We are talking about a 42 month period of time, which coincides with the 42 months during which Jerusalem will be handed over to the gentiles (Rev. 11:2) and the 42 months that the beast is given authority.  (Rev. 13:5).

 

It is also notable that in Hosea 2:16 they are told they will call Him 'husband', not master.  This would include the Jews in the wedding supper, which would fit with when scripture places the event.

 

Rev. 21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. ² I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. ³ And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ⁴ ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

 

The place He went to prepare for us, which takes place after the great white throne judgement as clarified by the final verse posted, no more tears, end of the age.

 

 

 

 

 

 

=====================================================================================================================

 

 

 

it was refreshing to see someone actually acknowledge Hosea's prophecy with a pre-trib perspective.

 

 

Thanks, appreciate that.  Don't here "refreshing" and my handle mentioned in the same breath very often.  Couple things: I'm not Pre-Trib, I'm Pre-70th Week of Daniel Rapture.  And there is no "trib" there's only the "great tribulation" lasting 3.5 years beginning with the Abomination of Desolation.

 

 

 

I'm curious given some of the information found here, (along with Revelation 12, where we are  told that the woman would be taken out of the serpent's reach for a period of 3 1/2 years) how does one arrive at the conclusion that a group of people can be protected and not protected at the same time?  It appears to me that the Jews will leave and flee to the wilderness, per the first instruction Jesus gives them regarding what to do when they see the abomination of desolation take place.  Matthew 24:15-18.

 

 

HIS Jewish Remnant will be protected...not all will be.  The rest here lines up.

 

 

The question to be asked is, who is being beheaded for their belief in Jesus Christ and their refusal to take the mark of the beast while the Jews are being kept from the serpent's reach and spoken tenderly to by Jesus?

 

 

These are the Tribulation Saints.....

 

(Revelation 7:9) "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

 

They come to know the LORD AFTER the great tribulation begins.  Can't be "The Church", John didn't recognize them (and a whole slew of other reasons). Can't be the 144,000 Jews, they were just sealed. Can't be the Jewish Remnant...they don't get saved until Christ's Return in Rev 19.

 

 

It is also notable that in Hosea 2:16 they are told they will call Him 'husband', not master.

 

 

I'm not all that familiar with these passages.

 

(Hosea 2:16) "And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali."

 

Who are "thou"?  Call who husband?

 

0376   //  vya  //  'iysh   //  eesh  // 

contracted for   0582  [or perhaps rather from an unused root meaning

to be extant]; TWOT - 83a; n m

 

AV - man 1002, men 210, one 188, husband 69, any 27, misc 143; 1639

 

1) man

1a) man, male (in contrast to woman, female)

1b) husband

1c) human being, person (in contrast to God)

1d) servant

1e) mankind

1f) champion

1g) great man

2) whosoever

3) each (adjective)

 

 

Are you saying The Jews are Christ's Wife/Bride?  If so, you have a couple MAJOR issues...

 

(2 Corinthians 11:2) "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

 

(Ephesians 5:31-32) "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.  {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

 

 

This would include the Jews in the wedding supper

 

 

This is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb....

 

(Revelation 19:7-9) "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.  {8} And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.  {9} And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God."

 

This occurs before Jesus Returns; Ergo, the Jews are on the Earth still...Bozrah/Petra as a matter of fact.

 

 

The place He went to prepare for us, which takes place after the great white throne judgement as clarified by the final verse posted, no more tears, end of the age.

 

 

Are you saying we ("The Church" <--------Born Again Christians) don't get to "the place" until after the Millennium?

 

Also "The place HE went to prepare for us" that  ='s a Place VS.  "which takes place after"  That ='s a Time.

[wingnut-]

Enoch, my apologies for the misunderstanding on your position, I must have misread something.  Before I get going I just want to say, nothing in my post is meant to demean or insult you or your beliefs in any way.  Should something strike you in such a fashion, I assure you that is not my intent.  I am continually searching for the truth, nothing more, and I don't believe I have all the answers, in fact, I know I do not.  I do believe that scripture holds all the answers though.

 

I guess the next question for me to understand your thinking is, who do you see as the "remnant?"  I know you believe they are Jews, but remnant of....?  I ask because I don't see anywhere in Hosea where he specifies this is only for a remnant.  It seems to be addressing the Jews as a whole.  Then there is the verse you posted earlier from Revelation 12, which you referred to as a slam dunk.

 

^{Rev 12:17} And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

Your conclusion was that the woman was Israel, and the remnant of her seed are select Jews within that group.  Now the verse in Revelation indicates that this is the group the dragon makes war with, because the woman cannot be touched for 42 months.  You just now stated in your response to me that the remnant is the group that is protected.  So basically my question still stands, how can you have the same group protected and not protected?

 

Then there is the issue with whether this remnant qualifies with what we know of the Jews.  We know several things about the remnant, they keep the commandments of God, and they have the testimony of Jesus Christ.  We also know that they are in harm's way.

 

The woman (Israel) is not in harm's way, so that should rule out the Jews.  The Jews don't have the testimony of Jesus Christ, so that should rule out the Jews.  Jew or gentile keep the commandments of God when taking all of scripture into consideration, as was adequately displayed in a previous post.

 

A quick summary of Hosea should make this clearer.  Chapter 1 tells you about Hosea's life, and specifically about how his adulterous wife torments him with her infidelities and the fact that he always takes her back.  Basically, Hosea's relationship is contrasted to the Lord's relationship with Israel.  This is what the prophecy is all about, reconciliation and forgiveness.

 

As far as the translation issue, I understand some people only like certain translations, but I try to keep it reader friendly.  I'm not sure what your argument is, your posted information and the subject of the text make it clear what the proper word is to insert.  The translation I posted is an accurate translation of that verse.   Let's look at it again.

 

Hosea 2:¹⁶ And it shall be at that day, saith the Lord, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.

 

The word in question is Ishi, which you provided a list of possibilities for, so let's fill in the blank.

 

"that thou shalt call me _____;

 

1) man
1a) man, male (in contrast to woman, female)
1b) husband
1c) human being, person (in contrast to God)
1d) servant
1e) mankind
1f) champion
1g) great man
2) whosoever
3) each (adjective)

 

I don't see the Jews calling their Messiah;  man, human being, servant, mankind, great man, whosoever, or each, or any of the other possibilities listed besides husband.  Given the entire subject matter and purpose of the book of Hosea is to draw this parallel between Hosea's love for his adulterous wife and the Lord's love for Israel, husband is the correct translation and understanding of the verse.

 

You asked who they are?  Israel.  That is what Hosea is all about.

You asked who they call husband?  The Lord, as indicated in the verse.

You asked if I am saying the Jews are the bride?  No, I am saying anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as their savior is part of the body of Christ, and will partake in the wedding supper, regardless of what time they lived and died, ethnicity, or any other reasoning for dividing people into groups outside of believers and non-believers.

 

I'm not sure how you see II Cor. 11:2 or Eph. 5:31-32 as major problems.  How many verses are there in scripture where the Lord addresses Israel with a version of "I am a jealous God."  At any rate, I don't see anything in either passage which would exclude the Jews.  I don't want to make assumptions about why you find those verses do not include them, so I will just post some of the scripture that supports my position.

 

Romans 3:22  This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

 

Romans 10:12  For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

 

And why would there be?  We were grafted in.  Paul was a Jew, was he not part of the church?  Why would he or any of the other New Testament writers differentiate between the two when referring to the church?  Paul did the opposite as shown above, there is no difference.

 

Concerning the passage you posted from Rev. 19:7-9, I don't disagree that this is the wedding supper, it says that it is.  As does the passage I posted from Rev. 21, which places the wedding supper at the very end.  I guess I'm not seeing the evidence to support your claims that this occurs before Jesus returns, nothing in the passage gives any indication of timing.

 

Perhaps we see the book of Revelation differently in how we read it.  I see Revelation as a compilation of short stories, all related to the same story, told from different viewpoints, with more specific accounts of certain events.  Revelation 18 through the beginning of 19 are written in a very unique style which I see as one of those short stories, which is an account of the last day, the specific day and hour spoken of throughout end time prophecies.  This thinking is supported by the scripture, which repeatedly speaks of this day and hour.  The placement of the wedding supper at this time aligns with where Rev. 21 tells us the bride is prepared.

 

I jumped over this section earlier, but wanted to address it now, this is what you posted in your response.

 

These are the Tribulation Saints.....

 

(Revelation 7:9) "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

 

They come to know the LORD AFTER the great tribulation begins.  Can't be "The Church", John didn't recognize them (and a whole slew of other reasons). Can't be the 144,000 Jews, they were just sealed. Can't be the Jewish Remnant...they don't get saved until Christ's Return in Rev 19.

 

Again, I see nothing there to support your statement that it can't be the church.  Why would John recognize people who weren't born until thousands of years after his death?  Why couldn't it be the 144,000?  They will come out of the great tribulation right?  And as you stated, the great tribulation is 3 1/2 years, so, why not?  What difference does it make when they were sealed?  The timing that an individual comes to belief in Jesus Christ will have no impact on their inheritance.  Why not the Jewish remnant?  The only requirement is that they go through the great tribulation (3.5 years you said), and this takes place after that period of time.  Considering that the end of the 3 1/2 year period of time is when this occurs, I don't understand how this can be viewed in any other manner than all inclusive. 

 

Also, for the record, I don't accept the term tribulation saints as valid, considering there is no such distinction found anywhere in scripture.  There are saints, and there are all those in big trouble.  Scripture is consistent on the fact that saints are believers, period.

 

Last but not least, Yes, I am saying that the place Jesus went to prepare for us is New Jerusalem.  And yes, it is at the very end of the age.  The reason I am saying it is simple, that is what the verse indicates to me.

 

Rev. 21:² I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

 

I believe the wedding supper itself is a symbol, and what it symbolizes is the finish line, or, our inheritance.  Is there a more joyous, festive event than a wedding ceremony and reception?  Anyway, this is why I disagree with any claims that would exclude any group from this event, because I know for certain there is no scripture to support such a claim.

 

By the way, I love the bit on Bozrah/Petra from your earlier post, with the map and distance.  Although we don't agree on all the details, I enjoy picking up interesting tidbits along the way, God bless.

 

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

============================================================================================================

 

 

Before I get going I just want to say, nothing in my post is meant to demean or insult you or your beliefs in any way.  Should something strike you in such a fashion, I assure you that is not my intent.  I am continually searching for the truth, nothing more, and I don't believe I have all the answers, in fact, I know I do not.  I do believe that scripture holds all the answers though.

 

 

I also.  Very well, lets get to cases:

 

 

I guess the next question for me to understand your thinking is, who do you see as the "remnant?"  I know you believe they are Jews, but remnant of....?

 

 

A Remnant....of the Jews. (A Part Of)

 

(Revelation 12:17) "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

 

"the woman" = Israel IN TOTO

"The remnant"= a Part of.

 

(Romans 9:27) "Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:"

 

(Zechariah 13:8-9) "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.  {9} And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God."

 

This is a chilling passage.  The Third Part = The Remnant

 

"through the fire" = through the "great tribulation"

 

"they shall call on my name, and I will hear them" =  These are they that Petition HIM to Return.  <-----** This is what satan is trying to PREVENT!...by killing the Remnant before it can take place.  For he knows, GOD will never go against HIS WORD....

 

(Hosea 5:15) " I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

That's a MASSIVE "TILL" !!

 

Then this will happen...

 

(Isaiah 63:1-6) "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.  {2} Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?  {3} I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.  {4} For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.  {5} And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.  {6} And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

 

(Revelation 14:20) "And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

 

(Revelation 19:15) "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

 

 

 

The woman (Israel) is not in harm's way, so that should rule out the Jews.

 

 

Yes, she is.  See Above.

 

 

The Jews don't have the testimony of Jesus Christ, so that should rule out the Jews

 

 

The Remnant do

 

I don't see the Jews calling their Messiah;  man, human being, servant, mankind, great man, whosoever, or each, or any of the other possibilities listed besides husband.  Given the entire subject matter and purpose of the book of Hosea is to draw this parallel between Hosea's love for his adulterous wife and the Lord's love for Israel, husband is the correct translation and understanding of the verse.

You asked who they are?  Israel.  That is what Hosea is all about.

You asked who they call husband?  The Lord, as indicated in the verse.

You asked if I am saying the Jews are the bride?  No, I am saying anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as their savior is part of the body of Christ, and will partake in the wedding supper, regardless of what time they lived and died, ethnicity, or any other reasoning for dividing people into groups outside of believers and non-believers.

 

 

Israel is GOD The Father's Wife but HE divorced her.

 

(Jeremiah 3:8) "And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also."

 

"The Church" <-----Born Again Christians  (Jews and Gentiles).  This is Jesus Christ's Wife.

 

"regardless of what time they lived and died" ----- 

 

OT Saints are not apart of "The Church" they are under a Different Covenant.  You can't have this...

 

(Romans 10:9) "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

 

or "Faith" in Jesus Christ if you died before The Gospel (Death/Buried/Resurrection). 

 

 

I'm not sure how you see II Cor. 11:2 or Eph. 5:31-32 as major problems.  How many verses are there in scripture where the Lord addresses Israel with a version of "I am a jealous God."  At any rate, I don't see anything in either passage which would exclude the Jews.

 

 

I'm not "excluding" them".... just rightly dividing:

 

You have....

 

OT Saints = Jews

 

"The Church" = Believing Jews and Gentiles.

 

The "Tribulation Saints" = come to know Christ during the "great tribulation" (slain) and brought out of it. (Who?  Most certainly Gentiles.  Jews?  hmmm    never thought about it, No Position here as of right now)

 

Unbelieving Jews = Israel

 

Concerning the passage you posted from Rev. 19:7-9, I don't disagree that this is the wedding supper, it says that it is.  As does the passage I posted from Rev. 21, which places the wedding supper at the very end.

 

 

Revelation 21:1-5, the passage you provided, speaks nothing of the "Marriage Supper".

 

 

I guess I'm not seeing the evidence to support your claims that this occurs before Jesus returns

 

 

(Revelation 19:7-16) "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.  {8} And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.  {9} And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.  {10} And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.  {11} And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.  {12} His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  {13} And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

 

Sequence of Events:  Marriage, Marriage Supper, Christ Returns (@ Bozrah/Petra)

 

Then....

 

(Revelation 19:17-18) "And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;  {18} That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."

 

Then...

 

(Revelation 20:1-3) "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.  {2} And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,  {3} And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

 

Then (or @ roughly the same time)...

 

(Revelation 20:4) "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

 

"souls of them that were beheaded" = "Tribulation Saints"

 

 

Then the Millennium.

 

 

 

 

 

Revelation 18 through the beginning of 19 are written in a very unique style which I see as one of those short stories, which is an account of the last day, the specific day and hour spoken of throughout end time prophecies.  This thinking is supported by the scripture, which repeatedly speaks of this day and hour.  The placement of the wedding supper at this time aligns with where Rev. 21 tells us the bride is prepared.

 

 

You have no support for any of this, And: "one of those short stories" <--------What is this?  As I've shown, this does not align with anything in Rev 21.

 

 

 

(Revelation 7:9) "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

 

They come to know the LORD AFTER the great tribulation begins.  Can't be "The Church", John didn't recognize them (and a whole slew of other reasons). Can't be the 144,000 Jews, they were just sealed. Can't be the Jewish Remnant...they don't get saved until Christ's Return in Rev 19.

 

1. Again, I see nothing there to support your statement that it can't be the church.  2. Why would John recognize people who weren't born until thousands of years after his death?  3. Why couldn't it be the 144,000?  4. They will come out of the great tribulation right?  And as you stated, the great tribulation is 3 1/2 years, so, why not?  5. What difference does it make when they were sealed?  6. The timing that an individual comes to belief in Jesus Christ will have no impact on their inheritance.  Why not the Jewish remnant?  7. The only requirement is that they go through the great tribulation (3.5 years you said), and this takes place after that period of time.  8. Considering that the end of the 3 1/2 year period of time is when this occurs, I don't understand how this can be viewed in any other manner than all inclusive.

 

 

1.  Well "The Church" is Promised and not appointed to GOD's Wrath:

 

(1 Thessalonians 5:9) "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

 

and the "great tribulation" is GOD'S Wrath.

 

Why would "The Church"/His Bride need to go through the Meat Grinder of the "great tribulation"??  We already know HE is the King of Kings and LORD of LORDS....so we could know it more??  

 

Hosea already told you the Purpose of the "great tribulation".... (Hosea 5:15) "¶ I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

The Purpose is for THE JEWS to Petition HIM to Return.  Absolutely nothing to do with "The Church"...we ("The Church") have "No Offence" to acknowledge.

 

Any other position than the Pre-Great Trib position has "The Church"/Born Again Christians going through the Great Tribulation....

Well 98% of "The Church"/Born Again Christians are DEAD (From Pentecost until now or when it's time).  So for "The Church" to go through the "Great Tribulation" on the Earth, They would have to be RESURRECTED and Walking around on the Earth so as to go through The Great Tribulation.

 

So unless you can show this scenario in Scripture, welcome to Pre- Great Trib Rapture.

 

I have about 20 other reasons, if you need me to post, just ask.

 

2.  This is the only "Group" of people that John didn't recognize....John is Apart of "The Church".

 

3. Well as I said, the 144,000 were just sealed in the previous Passages and they are still on the Earth going through the "great tribulation", here:

 

(Revelation 9:4) "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads." 

 

The 144,000 can't be in Heaven in Chapter 7 AND still on the Earth going through "great tribulation" in chapter 9.  While the "Tribulation Saints" are in Heaven serving the LORD day and night...and they will not: hunger, thirst, nor shall the sun light shine on them, nor any heat.

 

4. and 5.  SEE # 3

 

6. I haven't a clue what you're talking about

 

7. What takes place after that time period?

 

8. What occurs after the 3.5 years?

 

 

Also, for the record, I don't accept the term tribulation saints as valid, considering there is no such distinction found anywhere in scripture.  There are saints, and there are all those in big trouble.  Scripture is consistent on the fact that saints are believers, period.

 

 

The Term "Tribulation Saints" is used in the Literature as a Distinctive/Characteristic to describe or categorize.  The fact that they are "Believers" is Irrelevant to this specific discussion.

 

If this is "The Church" you have another MAJOR Problem:

 

These "Tribulation Saints" were overcome by the beast and slain.

 

(Daniel 7:21-22) "I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;  {22} Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom."

 

Christ says...

 

(Matthew 16:18) " And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

 

These "Tribulation Saints are not "The Church".  They were "Prevailed Against".  SEE It?

 

 

Last but not least, Yes, I am saying that the place Jesus went to prepare for us is New Jerusalem.  And yes, it is at the very end of the age.  The reason I am saying it is simple, that is what the verse indicates to me

 

 

It's not Specifically New Jerusalem.....however I'm sure it will be IN the New Jerusalem.

 

(John 14:1-3) " Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.  {2}  In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.  {3}  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

 

This has Absolutely nothing to do with the "WHEN"...and your position is refuted by Chapter 19 (SEE Above)... the Wedding and Marriage Supper with HIS Bride/"The Church" <------ Born Again Christians, Occurs BEFORE Christ's Return to the Earth to Save HIS Jewish Remnant. 

 

regards

[Marilyn C]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

I believe a lot of what you say however there are a few minor points -

 

``Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then the king said to His servants, "Bind him hand & foot, take him away, & cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping & gnashing of teeth. (Matt. 22: 12 & 13)

 

How can this person get into the wedding feast if it is in heaven?

 

Also if you are the bride/ queen when married, when do you become a `king?`

 

 

Marilyn.

[wingnut-]

Hello Enoch,

 

Ok, so now that we're clear on the remnant you're referring to, I have a better understanding of your position.  First, I think we should discuss the first hurdle I cannot get over.

 

Revelation 12:¹⁴ The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

 

My comment:  The woman (Israel) is not in harm's way, so that should rule out the Jews.

Your response:  Yes, she is.  See Above.

 

Note the underlined and bolded section of the verse, what you claim is in opposition to scripture.  The reason the dragon pursues the remnant is because the woman is beyond reach, or not in harm's way.  The time that we are told the woman is out of reach, 3 1/2 years, this is a glaring contradiction to your position.  According to this, the dragon cannot get to Israel for the entire 3 1/2 year period you have assigned as the great tribulation.

 

This leads us right back to my original question, how can you have the same group protected and not protected at the same time?

 

Second, I am confused again now as to who you see as the remnant based on the following comment and response.

 

My comment:  The Jews don't have the testimony of Jesus Christ, so that should rule out the Jews.

Your response:  The remnant do.

 

I'll start with the most obvious question, are you saying the remnant are messianic Jews?  One must be saved to have the testimony of Jesus Christ, so I have to assume that is what you are saying.  So the next logical question is this, if they are already saved, wouldn't they have been raptured with everyone else?  I don't want to jump to any conclusions so I'll await clarification before proceeding further.

 

Third, we're getting back to the relationship between the Lord and Israel.  Since you didn't address it directly, I am assuming you don't disagree that husband is the correct translation for the Hosea passage previously discussed.  I did notice that we are in agreement that all believers, whether Jew or Gentile, make up the body of Christ.  Now it's just a matter of understanding the exclusion you have placed on some.

 

Your comment:  OT Saints are not apart of "The Church" they are under a Different Covenant.  You can't have this...

 

Paul covers this subject matter thoroughly in Romans, and your claims are in opposition to what was written, here are a few highlights.

 

Romans 4:³ What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

 

Romans 4:⁶ David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: ⁷ “Blessed are those
    whose transgressions are forgiven,
    whose sins are covered.
⁸ Blessed is the one
    whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

 

Romans 4:¹³ It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

 

Romans 4:²² This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” ²³ The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, ²⁴ but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

 

Paul also goes on to discuss the 'seal' of righteousness that Abraham had by faith.  The seal is the Holy Spirit, which can only be obtained by accepting salvation, Paul also clarifies this in the book of Romans.

 

It baffles me that anyone would attempt to exclude men such as Abraham or David or the prophets, or any Old Testament saint from the rewards God promised His children.   What you can't have is a God who breaks promises and shows favoritism.

 

Acts 10:34  Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism.

 

Galations 2:6  As for those who were held in high esteem—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritism—they added nothing to my message.

 

Romans 2: ⁹ There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; ¹⁰ but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. ¹¹ For God does not show favoritism.

 

It is important to note in the above passage from Romans 2 that Paul gives an order to things, the Jew comes first in both cases, whether evil or good.  Can you explain how your theory reverses this order and has the Gentile who does good receiving glory, honor, and peace before the Jew?   This is another major contradiction with any theory that places the resurrection prior to where John places the first resurrection in Rev. 20.

 

Romans 2 is not the only place the order is established either, Paul gives the order multiple times.

 

Romans 1:16  For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

 

I Corinthians 15:²² For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. ²³ But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. ²⁴ Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

 

So to accept your position, I would have to believe that the order Paul gave is incorrect, meaning God gave me bad information.  Unless of course you have some scripture that explains the contradiction.  Then I would still have to swallow that God lied, and does indeed intend to show favoritism to the church.

 

I just want to touch briefly on this statement you made.

 

Your comment:  I'm not "excluding" them".... just rightly dividing:

 

I think we all are trying to rightly divide when it comes to scripture, but to do so we must incorporate all of scripture into our positions.  I'll have to await your response to the above contradictions before proceeding, I don't want to draw the wrong conclusions.

 

Now let's jump back to this topic again.

 

Your comment:  Revelation 21:1-5, the passage you provided, speaks nothing of the "Marriage Supper".

 

Revelation 21:² I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

 

Revelation 21:⁹ One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” ¹⁰ And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

 

A bride prepared for her husband, I'm not sure how you have a wedding supper before the bride is ready.  However, these passages leave no doubt as to the identity of the bride, or the timing of the event, the very end.  Clearly a bride is necessary for a marriage supper, these passages speak plainly.

 

Your comment:  You have no support for any of this, And: "one of those short stories" <--------What is this?  As I've shown, this does not align with anything in Rev 21.

 

It appears that you read the book of Revelation as though it were written chronologically.  I do not.  It is a book about one subject, the end times, divided into sections.  Some deal with multiple events, some deal with specific events, some deal with events in more detail.  Rev. 18-19:10 is one of those sections, it addresses the fall of Babylon up to the end of the age.

 

There are many proofs for this, one would be the topic we are discussing, the marriage supper.  It is spoken of in chapter 19, and it is also spoken of in chapter 21.  Other examples, how about the mountains falling down or the islands being removed?  Once an island has been removed from the face of the earth, can you remove it again?  Many of these events overlap and intersect each other, they are happening simultaneously.

 

I have to go to work now, so I will have to pick up from here later.  I look forward to your response, God bless.

 

[Enoch2021]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

I believe a lot of what you say however there are a few minor points -

 

``Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then the king said to His servants, "Bind him hand & foot, take him away, & cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping & gnashing of teeth. (Matt. 22: 12 & 13)

 

How can this person get into the wedding feast if it is in heaven?

 

Also if you are the bride/ queen when married, when do you become a `king?`

 

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

==============================================================================================================================

 

``Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then the king said to His servants, "Bind him hand & foot, take him away, & cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping & gnashing of teeth. (Matt. 22: 12 & 13)

 

How can this person get into the wedding feast if it is in heaven?

 

 

Well you are taking a parable with a Simile (Figure of Speech) as Literal, the passages in question start with....

 

(Matthew 22:1-14) "And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,  {2}  The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,  {3}  And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.  {4}  Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.  {5}  But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:  {6}  And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.  {7}  But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.  {8}  Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.  {9}  Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.  {10}  So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.  {11} ¶  And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 

 

{12}  And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.  {13}  Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.  {14}  For many are called, but few are chosen."

 

 

 

Also if you are the bride/ queen when married, when do you become a `king?`

 

 

Not following, what is this in reference to?

[Marilyn C]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

I really don`t want to interrupt you good conversation with wingnut, which is very interesting. However I thought I might get you to think upon that parable, as you said, & how the Lord is talking to Israel. We both know that the Body of Christ was yet to be revealed. Thus Christ was talking to Israel concerning their future, their inheritance that was promised.

 

As regards the other point. If you believe the Body of Christ is the bride, then when are we Kings & priests? Bit of a mixture there Enoch.

 

Marilyn.