Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[Revelation Man]

10 hours ago, Ezra said:

How can a trumpet announcing the severest expression of God's wrath (7th trumpet) have any relation whatsoever to a "last trumpet" calling the saints home (a proclamation of deliverance, salvation,  transformation, perfection, resurrection, glorification)?  

That in itself is so ludicrous, that one has to wonder where people come up with these untenable interpretations. 

Ezra, they get an "Understanding" and are not pliable to the Holy Spirit, they get stuck on ideas, and like the Pharisees they are rigid in their beliefs to the exclusion of all things. Doesn't mean they are evil like the Pharisees were, it just means they have the same propensity to stay in their traditional beliefs. I wrote a blog about Babylon maybe Nine months ago, put it out on the world-wide-web, and I called Babylon ROME....Within Six Months God showed my what Babylon was........I did not stick to my other belief, I came forth with that which the Holy Spirit revealed unto me. The first I had a good idea about, as most of Rev. 17 and 18 had been given unto me, but I was not 100 percent sure about Rome, it troubled me somewhat, but I had to finish my blog up and speak about Rev. 17:18 so I said, this is my best guess on this part.

Turns out Babylon is just the Last Beast System, Rev. 16 is where it ENDS, Rev. 17 and 18 are just an enhanced retelling of things that have already happened etc. etc, anyway, we must be pliable to the Holy Spirit, that is the point. 

The Last Trump has nothing to do with Revelation, 1. Revelation was not even written at that time. 2. The Last of ANYTHING can be in accordance to what AGE you are in, this LAST TRUMP will be the Last Trump of the Church Age, it will call us Christians home, and will call Israel unto Atonement. 

Everything fits, but they grasp on individual "WORDS" instead of looking at the Mosaic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Salty]

13 hours ago, Ezra said:

How can a trumpet announcing the severest expression of God's wrath (7th trumpet) have any relation whatsoever to a "last trumpet" calling the saints home (a proclamation of deliverance, salvation,  transformation, perfection, resurrection, glorification)?  

That in itself is so ludicrous, that one has to wonder where people come up with these untenable interpretations. 

What is ludicrous is trying to ADD... another trumpet to the very end (which would be an 8th trumpet), just to satisfy a doctrine of men.

The Revelation trumpets represent 'battle' trumpets, not trumpets of some royal affair like a royal parade. And that is what the final "last trump" represents, which is the 7th trumpet and the same trump of 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15.

Edited October 29, 2016 by Salty

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

It has nothing to do with me and you, It is what God says, and He is right always. You must empty yourself from your ideas, or as they say let go and let God. I have not been a preacher and teacher to puff myself up, I do it because I care for others. By me going over 30 years without professing a belief in the Rapture one way or another, that should pretty much tell you, I never claim my own understanding as truth. Until the unction of God gives me the understanding, I only profess to have "IDEAS" on things/understandings, most things did not take 30 years. Is there any reason why Christendom has 25 beliefs on what Babylon is ? SURE....Because Christians by and large are not hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit doesn't confuse us. Either we should say, I have no Idea what Babylon and the Harlot is, but I have my own thoughts, or we should say, the Holy Spirit has revealed it to me.......And every one of those that say this should have the exact same understanding, so Satan is infiltrating the Churches and confusing people.

 

The Church does not go through any part of Jacobs 7 Years of Trouble, we are in Heaven. Read the Jewish Wedding Pattern. 

The church indeed goes through ‘great tribulation’. Any who say God does not punish his own children deny the very character of the Almighty.

Over the years I have heard every imaginable objection to this idea, and they are all a visceral reaction to the thought of a loving father punishing his children. The general line of thought is that a truly loving God would never allow His children to come to harm and therefore would never actively, and with purpose, punish His children.

There is also another aspect in the objections to the idea of God punishing His people; God’s people think they are pure, holy and perfect and have not run afoul of God’s standard and are without spot or blemish. Hogwash!

Let’s pull up and have a look at the many scriptures that speak to this. Typically these are ignored by the greater part of the church as the scripture in question contradicts popular, elitist dogma.

Hebrews 12

⁵ And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

⁶ Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.For whom the

⁷ If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

⁸ But if ye be without chastisement then are ye bastards, and not sons., whereof all are partakers,

1 Peter 4

¹² Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

¹⁷ For the time is come that and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?judgment must begin at the house of God:

¹⁸ , where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?if the righteous scarcely be saved

Rev 3

¹⁹ As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Rev 2

²⁶ And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Rev is all about the last week of the age. The truth of ‘he that overcometh’ has everything to do with overcoming the events of the end of the age, and nothing to do with that scratch on your car, a pregnant underage daughter, your pot smoking son, or that your 401K lost 4.5%. The above verse from Rev 2 speaks to the fact the people of God are going into and through ‘great tribulation’.

Even though we can easily understand Rev 2:26 from the context of the whole of Rev, another fact from the verse itself fully clarifies the ‘when’ question. ‘Overcometh’ and ‘keepeth…to the end’. The ‘end’? Of what? The last week, of course. But that’s not quite right. The last week is the context but the real end here is at the moment of Christ’s appearing when ‘those days were cut short or no flesh would be saved.’ This shows the existing church being exhorted to overcome and keep, ‘unto the end.’ Meaning the church enters the last week and endures to the appearing of Jesus sometime before the end of the week at the end of the fiery trial spoken of by Peter.

Further, only those who do overcome receive the power to rule the nations. This is one of the great rewards for those who keep His works to the end. It’s a major deal as power over the nations is mentioned as well as the rod of iron. Plus, we get the morning star! Not sure what that might be but I can’t wait to find out.

I see the Word of God in Hebrews, Peter and Rev speak for itself but a short summary is necessary:

God loves us. Because of this He punishes us. If we are punished by Him we are His children and if not, He is not our Father. Only those He loves does he rebuke and chasten; no chastening or rebuke? Not part of the kingdom of heaven.

This doesn’t mean I ignore all the blessings and great promises of the Most High. All these are precious indeed and a source of great hope and comfort to everyone who believes. But we cannot have one without the other. God is all things at all times and every character trait of the Most High God is what makes Him who he is, and none should ever be discounted or ignored.

[Salty]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

It has nothing to do with me and you, It is what God says, and He is right always. You must empty yourself from your ideas, or as they say let go and let God. I have not been a preacher and teacher to puff myself up, I do it because I care for others. By me going over 30 years without professing a belief in the Rapture one way or another, that should pretty much tell you, I never claim my own understanding as truth. Until the unction of God gives me the understanding, I only profess to have "IDEAS" on things/understandings, most things did not take 30 years. Is there any reason why Christendom has 25 beliefs on what Babylon is ? SURE....Because Christians by and large are not hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit doesn't confuse us. Either we should say, I have no Idea what Babylon and the Harlot is, but I have my own thoughts, or we should say, the Holy Spirit has revealed it to me.......And every one of those that say this should have the exact same understanding, so Satan is infiltrating the Churches and confusing people.

 

The Church does not go through any part of Jacobs 7 Years of Trouble, we are in Heaven. Read the Jewish Wedding Pattern. 

You may think in your own mind that you are following what is right, but following a Pre-trib Rapture theory is NOT any such thing as following what God's Word says in His Word. No such idea exists in His Word, which is why that idea for over 1800 years was NEVER a doctrine in the Christian Church.

What? Did the early Church fathers somehow miss the idea of a pre-trib rapture in Scripture? No, because no such idea exists in Scripture. Those who follow the 1830's Darby doctrine are following a tradition from men, which is why it only began in some Churches in 1830's Great Britain.

You may think you're fooling people here, but you certainly are not fooling me as to your following a tradition from men, and not a Biblical doctrine from God's Word.

 

And as for what the 'wrath' is that Apostle Paul mentioned we are not appointed to per 1 Thess.5, he was speaking of God's cup of wrath upon the wicked on the DAY OF THE LORD, which is the FINAL DAY of this present world when Jesus comes to gather His Church, which also means it is AFTER the tribulation, for that DAY will END the tribulation like Paul also showed in 2 Thess.2:8.

Paul even gave you an example from the Old Testament prophets about the deceived who will be saying, "Peace and safety" and then "sudden destruction" comes upon them by that "day of the Lord" coming upon them "as a thief in the night". With that idea of a sudden destruction, Paul was pulling from the OT prophets about the final day of this world when Jesus comes to judge the wicked on earth!

So are we to think you are not familiar with the Old Testament prophets about that coming future event of God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked on the last day?

If you claim vials 1-6 is that wrath on the final 7th Vial (day of the Lord timing) just because Rev.16 starts off labeling the vials as a wrath, then you have totally missed what Paul was pointing to in 1 Thess.5 from the OT prophets about the "day of the Lord" cup of wrath, which is here:

Rev 16:19-21
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
KJV

Thus, Apostle Paul was NOT speaking of the wrath of Vials 1-6 that occur during the tribulation. Paul in 1 Thess.5 was pointing directly to God's cup of wrath upon the wicked on the final day of this world, i.e., the "day of the Lord". And that is 7th Vial timing, and none other.

But you say the wrath we are not appointed to is the wrath of vials 1-6 which is for during the tribulation, and that because we the Church are supposedly 'raptured' out before those vials happen, which all that is actually a doctrine from John Darby's Pre-trib Rapture theory, and is NOT a doctrine from God's Word, definitely not in the OT prophets either, and definitely not following what Paul was teaching in 1 Thess.5 about what wrath we are not appointed to.

So once again, your adhering to those Pre-trib Rapture doctrines instead, shows you are very misled.

 

[Salty]

20 minutes ago, Diaste said:

The church indeed goes through ‘great tribulation’. Any who say God does not punish his own children deny the very character of the Almighty.

Over the years I have heard every imaginable objection to this idea, and they are all a visceral reaction to the thought of a loving father punishing his children. The general line of thought is that a truly loving God would never allow His children to come to harm and therefore would never actively, and with purpose, punish His children.

There is also another aspect in the objections to the idea of God punishing His people; God’s people think they are pure, holy and perfect and have not run afoul of God’s standard and are without spot or blemish. Hogwash!

Let’s pull up and have a look at the many scriptures that speak to this. Typically these are ignored by the greater part of the church as the scripture in question contradicts popular, elitist dogma.

....

 

And we're given this from the Book of Daniel about the end...

Dan 12:9-10
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
KJV

 

Some of us will be called to make a 'stand' for Christ during the tribulation:

Mark 13:11-13
11  But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV

 

In Rev.11 regarding God's "two witnesses", in their description it mentions they are also the two candlesticks. Per Rev.1 the candlesticks represent the seven Churches in Asia (Minor). This points to 2 of the symbolic Churches that will exist for the tribulation giving a Witness by The Holy Spirit along with God's two witnesses who will give a Testimony specifically in Jerusalem against the beast. That Mark 13:11 Scripture is pointing to those two Churches doing that.

When that event happens, it will be God Himself speaking directly... against the beast and unto the whole world. None will be able to deny what comes out of their mouths by The Holy Spirit. It is going to slice as with a sword, and shake Satan's beast kingdom established on earth then. This is why in Jerusalem specifically, the beast will eventually kill God's two witnesses.

So there is a SWORD to deliver to Satan and his host on earth during the coming great tribulation. And what, we're supposed to try and escape that DUTY from our Lord Jesus? especially when He forewarned us about it??

The Pre-trib Rapture doctrine is a DEFEATIST STRATEGY by Satan's host. It's purpose is to try and prevent... that coming Witness by The Holy Spirit through Christ's elect during the tribulation, as much as possible. But that prevention is just not... going... to happen.

 

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

It has nothing to do with me and you, It is what God says, and He is right always. You must empty yourself from your ideas, or as they say let go and let God. I have not been a preacher and teacher to puff myself up, I do it because I care for others. By me going over 30 years without professing a belief in the Rapture one way or another, that should pretty much tell you, I never claim my own understanding as truth. Until the unction of God gives me the understanding, I only profess to have "IDEAS" on things/understandings, most things did not take 30 years. Is there any reason why Christendom has 25 beliefs on what Babylon is ? SURE....Because Christians by and large are not hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit doesn't confuse us. Either we should say, I have no Idea what Babylon and the Harlot is, but I have my own thoughts, or we should say, the Holy Spirit has revealed it to me.......And every one of those that say this should have the exact same understanding, so Satan is infiltrating the Churches and confusing people.

 

The Church does not go through any part of Jacobs 7 Years of Trouble, we are in Heaven. Read the Jewish Wedding Pattern. 

Shabbat shalom, Revelation Man.

Yes, do read the Jewish wedding pattern! You will find that it includes the drinking of WINE in celebration! HOWEVER, Yeshua` said,

Matthew 26:27
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
KJV

Mark 14:25
25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.
KJV

Luke 22:18
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come (Greek: elthee).
KJV

And, He also said,

Matthew 25:31-34
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
KJV

Do not be so easily misled into thinking this occurs in some "Heaven!" It will happen RIGHT HERE ON THIS EARTH AFTER HE RETURNS!

We are already IN "Jacob's Years of Trouble," and it's not just a mere 7 years! The "7 years," the 70th "Seven" (or "Week") of Daniel's 70 Sevens of years is about the people of Daniel, the children of Israel! And, it's been SPLIT IN TWO by the Messiah Yeshua` when He said,

Matthew 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. (Daniel 9:27)
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

where Daniel 9:27 reads:

Daniel 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant (the Davidic covenant, 2 Chron.  with many for one week (Hebrew: shaavuwa` echaad = one Seven): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (Matt. 27:50-53; Mark 15:37-38 cf. Heb. 10:10-22), and for the overspreading of abominations (Matt. 23:1-37) he shall make it desolate (Hebrew: mshomeem), even until the consummation (the conclusion, i.e. the rest of the Seven), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (the recipients desolated, the children of Israel in that period of human history).
KJV

Thus, Yeshua` fulfilled part of this prophecy. Yeshua` is the "he" in this verse. The remaining three and a half years will continue AFTER Yeshua` returns! Right now, we're in that period of desolation, as far as the children of Israel are concerned.

[Last Daze]

On 10/29/2016 at 5:15 AM, Revelation Man said:

It has nothing to do with me and you, It is what God says, and He is right always. You must empty yourself from your ideas, or as they say let go and let God. I have not been a preacher and teacher to puff myself up, I do it because I care for others. By me going over 30 years without professing a belief in the Rapture one way or another, that should pretty much tell you, I never claim my own understanding as truth. Until the unction of God gives me the understanding, I only profess to have "IDEAS" on things/understandings, most things did not take 30 years. Is there any reason why Christendom has 25 beliefs on what Babylon is ? SURE....Because Christians by and large are not hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit doesn't confuse us. Either we should say, I have no Idea what Babylon and the Harlot is, but I have my own thoughts, or we should say, the Holy Spirit has revealed it to me.......And every one of those that say this should have the exact same understanding, so Satan is infiltrating the Churches and confusing people.

 

The Church does not go through any part of Jacobs 7 Years of Trouble, we are in Heaven. Read the Jewish Wedding Pattern. 

Yes, everyone's eschatology is right in their own eyes.  The thing is that we are never told to figure it all out, only to be ready and alert for His return.  I think we can all agree that there will be a man of sin who exalts himself and demands worship, and that believers are not to worship him.  That to me is essential eschatology. 

Whether we think we will be here for that or not is irrelevant.  What matters is that we have separated ourselves from the world and walk in the truth, what believers are supposed to do regardless.  Then we will be alert and ready for whatever comes our way and will have the discernment to make godly decisions when our eschatology fails us.  Insisting that our "God-breathed" understanding is infallible to the point of strife and contention serves no useful purpose and in my opinion points to a different source.  I've been down that road.

Let us encourage each other to walk in the light of truth.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Last Daze

[Ezra]

37 minutes ago, inchrist said:

On the first day of the seventh month you shall have a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work. It is a day for you to blow the trumpets

Now compare this with Revelation 15:1 and see how ludicrous it is.  Does a holy convocation have anything in common with the wrath of God?

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Revelation 15:8 does not follow Revelation 11:19.

There are parallel accounts within the book of Revelation.
The end of the one 'seven' is portrayed in Revelation 11:19 with the earth-changing earthquake.  

The earth-changing earthquake eliminates mountains, mountain ranges, and sea mounts (islands).  
This allows for a more even rain pattern, which in the Millennium, is adjusted by that nations' devotion to Jesus.

The earth-changing earthquake is also portrayed at the end of the detailed portion of the one 'seven' (chapters 13-16) in 16:17-20.
This earthquake can also be seen at the end of the sidebar account which details the Temple and the Two Witnesses in 11:13.

The earth-changing earthquake is omitted in the end of the one 'seven' in chapter 19.
However, we can know the one 'seven' is over because the final battle (Daniel 9:26) is fought and won at Armageddon.

[Ezra]

8 hours ago, inchrist said:

Now Ezra, second time do you know what a holy convocation means?

No point getting into that.  Your basic premise is flawed.