Is the Falling Away a false teaching ?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

4 hours ago, douggg said:

- Okay, I have evidently messed up the message board... so this post is just to get the error off the page...

[Marcus O'Reillius]

3 hours ago, douggg said:

What's this "fully revealed" stuff?      There is the transgression of desolation - the act of going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God.    That is what reveals him to be the man of sin.    

Then afterwards, he is killed and brought back to life as the beast, and the image made of him placed in the temple, the abomination of desolation.     The abomination of desolation is setup 1335 days before Jesus returns....  on day 1185 of the 70th week timeline.

Yes, fully revealed - so there can be no doubt.

You, on the basis of Daniel 8 have interpreted TWO times of desolation.  The Transgression based on Daniel 8:12, and the abomination based on Daniel 9:27.
However, I do not count Daniel's near-term prophecy concerning Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 168B.C. as a 1:1 for the end-times.

Quote

The transgression of desolation (the act of sitting, claiming to be god)  is prior to the abomination of desolation (an image, a statue, an idol) setup in the temple.

What you see as two, I see as one.

Yes, Antiochus provides the basis for shifting to a greater anti-Christ in the Son of Perdition, and yes, there are descriptive elements which transfer from one to the other in Daniel 8.

However, I discount the 2,300 evenings and mornings as applying in the end-times.
That is bound by the one 'seven' which is split in two in its introduction by Gabriel.

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Yes, fully revealed - so there can be no doubt.

You, on the basis of Daniel 8 have interpreted TWO times of desolation.  The Transgression based on Daniel 8:12, and the abomination based on Daniel 9:27.
However, I do not count Daniel's near-term prophecy concerning Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 168B.C. as a 1:1 for the end-times.

What you see as two, I see as one.

Yes, Antiochus provides the basis for shifting to a greater anti-Christ in the Son of Perdition, and yes, there are descriptive elements which transfer from one to the other in Daniel 8.

However, I discount the 2,300 evenings and mornings as applying in the end-times.
That is bound by the one 'seven' which is split in two in its introduction by Gabriel.

Daniel 12:11-12 the Abomination of Desolation

You would see two reasons for desolation if you read Daniel 12, which will be setup to be worshiped as the image of the beast in Revelation 13 - as the abomination of desolation.

2Thessalonians2:4 the Transgression of Desolation

And the ACT of going into the temple SITTING, claiming to be god, 2thessalonians2:4 as the transgression of desolation.    Which in Ezekiel 28:1-10, God has the person killed for the audacious act of SITTING in the seat of God claiming to be God - but is nothing but a man.    The Antichrist is the prince of Tyrus (code name).   Satan is the king of Tyrus (code name) in the same Ezekiel 28.

2  Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I SIT in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

In Daniel 8, which has the transgression of desolation....

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Do you know what it means by desolation?   It means that there will be no praise and worship of God in the temple while the desolation is occurring.

Antiochus has nothing to do with Daniel 8, the vision of the transgression of desolation, because the vision is for the time of the end - in the text.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2016 by douggg

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

5 hours ago, douggg said:

- Okay, I have evidently messed up the message board... so this post is just to get the error off the page...

  you make it look like I typed that message.    Just to make it clear to everyone it is you who "evidently messed up the message board".

 

[Revelation Man]

10 hours ago, douggg said:

The Day of Christ (the Lord) does not take place until the falling away (from belief that Jesus is the messiah - to believing that the person who will be anointed the King of Israel by the Jews is the real messiah.    That person is the Anti-christ, forthcoming)  which will take place in the first part of the 70th week.

 

I have often asked, but never gotten an answer, where does this false narrative come from ? Nowhere in scriptures does it say that the Jews accept a False Messiah. The Day of Christ (Lord) does not happen until the Rapture. And Malachi 4:5-6 says Elijah will be sent to turn Israel back to God BEFORE the Day of the Lord !!

10 hours ago, douggg said:

Nearing the middle of the 70th week, the Jews and the world thinking they are in the messianic age of peace and safety, will be betrayed by the person who commits the transgression of desolation, going into the temple, sitting claiming to be god.       Revealing himself to be the man of sin.     The Jews will reject him as continuing as their King of Israel, ending his role as the Anti-christ.        He is killed and brought back to life as the beast (no longer in the role of the Anti-christ, illegitimate King of Israel).

 

The world hates God, Revelations shows that they are punished over and over yet repent not. The Church is not in the Tribulation, the Elites you see now, the pro-homosexual, pro Abortion, pro humanism will be in charge, they will destroy Islam and crush all Religions, they will demand that the Anti-Christ be worshiped as God, the Anti-Christ sets up an Image in the Temple, and this STUNS/SHOCKS Israel, that is what desolate means...to stun, stupefy, idolatrous or an IDOL. Rev. 13 says they place an Image of the Beast in the Temple and cause all to worship it. No where does Israel accept the Anti-Christ as the Messiah, as a matter of fact, a strict/proper reading of Daniel 9:27 says that the Anti-Christ CONFIRMS meaning to BE STRONG or act INSOLENT a Covenant (Which means an AGREEMENT, not a Holy Agreement) SO.....The Anti-Christ kind of pulls an Obama and Strong Arms Israel into an Agreement. Supposedly giving them Peace (Security) but of course he double crosses them, but NOWHERE but in peoples minds, do the Jewish Peoples accept the Anti-Christ as the Messiah. No scriptures back this up at all.  He starts conquering at the mid-way point. Israel Flees.........God protects her because Elijah has turned Israel back to God, they finally accept Jesus as the Messiah. Before the Day of the LORD. Like Malachi 4:5-6 says.

10 hours ago, douggg said:

Leaving that role of being the Antichrist, he shortly becomes the beast of Revelation, who will be worshiped the last 42 months of the 70th week.

Satan or Apollyon possesses the Anti-Christ or takes over his body after he dies.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

Antiochus has nothing to do with Daniel 8, the vision of the transgression of desolation, because the vision is for the time of the end - in the text.

Oh contraire.  Antiochus is the template for the anti-Christ and so you're right and you're wrong.

Daniel 8 is short-term, but it segues to the end times.  ~ "it pertains to the appointed time of the end." in verse 19

The Ram and the Goat concerns the shift in power from the Medes-Persia to the Greeks.  This is Daniel's near-term.

The lesson of Antiochus and his upset of the Temple in 168 B.C. (which has to do with the 2300 evenings and mornings) sets the stage and has to do with Daniel's far-term.

This same "Dual Focus" is used in Daniel 11 to cover a generational conflict which pivots at the abomination of Antiochus to the anti-Christ.

The attributes of Antiochus pertains to the very character of the anti-Christ, as Gabriel says, the vision of the evenings and mornings is true, but "it pertains to many days in the future." in verse 26 as well.

It is not just describing the time of the end, but showing how the near-term is a pattern and an example for the end-times.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

  you make it look like I typed that message.    Just to make it clear to everyone it is you who "evidently messed up the message board".

Yeah, I was trying to insert a quote while doing an edit, and a whole post just disappeared. 

Rather than write it all again, I wiped out the original quote and put in that message.  Oh well!

[douggg]

11 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Oh contraire.  Antiochus is the template for the anti-Christ and so you're right and you're wrong.

Daniel 8 is short-term, but it segues to the end times.  ~ "it pertains to the appointed time of the end." in verse 19

The Ram and the Goat concerns the shift in power from the Medes-Persia to the Greeks.  This is Daniel's near-term.

The lesson of Antiochus and his upset of the Temple in 168 B.C. (which has to do with the 2300 evenings and mornings) sets the stage and has to do with Daniel's far-term.

This same "Dual Focus" is used in Daniel 11 to cover a generational conflict which pivots at the abomination of Antiochus to the anti-Christ.

The attributes of Antiochus pertains to the very character of the anti-Christ, as Gabriel says, the vision of the evenings and mornings is true, but "it pertains to many days in the future." in verse 26 as well.

It is not just describing the time of the end, but showing how the near-term is a pattern and an example for the end-times.

Anitochus is in Daniel 11, but not in Daniel 8.     The vision of the daily sacrifrice, the stopping of the daily sacrifice, the transgression of desolation - spans 2300 days - until Jesus returns.    Therefore, day 2520 - 2300 days, the daily sacrifice will start up again on day 220 of the 70th week timeline.

Edited October 9, 2016 by douggg

[Marcus O'Reillius]

24 minutes ago, douggg said:

Anitochus is in Daniel 11, but not in Daniel 8.     The vision of the daily sacrifrice, the stopping of the daily sacrifice, the transgression of desolation - spans 2300 days - until Jesus returns.    Therefore, day 2520 - 2300 days, the daily sacrifice will start up again on day 220 of the 70th week timeline.

Daniel 8:5 While I was observing, behold, a male goat was coming from the west over the surface of the whole earth without touching the ground; and the goat had a conspicuous horn between his eyes. 6 He came up to the ram that had the two horns, which I had seen standing in front of the canal, and rushed at him in his mighty wrath.

5- 7 Verse 5 foretells coming disaster for Cyrus in the figure of an amazingly swift, one- horned goat that with one mighty charge shatters the horns of the Medo- Persian ram. First, the goat is described as coming from the west, that is, from the region of Macedonia and Greece (as Alexander the Great did in 334 B. C., when he won the Battle of Granicus in Asia Minor). Second, he moves so fast that his hooves barely touch the ground as he charges all the way to the eastern limit of the Persian domain ("crossing the whole earth"). Third, this irresistible invading force is to be under the leadership of one man, rather than under a coalition of nations, as the Persians had been. In vain the ram attempts to withstand the charge of the goat (v. 6), as the goat hurls himself against the ram-- an implied prediction that the Macedonian- Greek forces would launch an unprovoked invasion such as took place in 334.  - Expositor's Bible Commentary.

Daniel 8 concerns a near-term prophecy about Greece and Medes-Persia detailing the transfer of power from the second Kingdom of Daniel 2 to the third Kingdom of Daniel 2 as shown in the statue that Nebuchadnezzar dreamed about that only Daniel could both tell of, and give an interpretation to.

The little horn that rises up from the four horns (the divided Greek Kingdom) in Daniel 8:9 is Antiochus.

In the previous vision of the fourth terrible beast in Daniel chapter 7, verse 8, the little horn that arises out of the ten horns and "hamstrings" three of those horns is the anti-Christ.

Antiochus and the anti-Christ are very similar, and the first gives us a pattern for the second.  This is not the last time God will show Daniel how one morphs into the other.

Thus, I do not apply the 2300 evenings and mornings - and the reference is not clear as to whether this is 2300 days, or 2300 evenings AND mornings, which would yield 1115 days - to the paired and opposite ends of the one 'seven' which are alternatively labeled, a time (a year), times (2 years), and half a time (6 months); 42 months, or 1260 days.

I reject your conclusion, stated as "therefore," that there is even an equation of 2520-2300 = 220.

The midpoint abomination, fully revealing the Son of Peridition when the talking image of him is erected in the Holy Place (like what Antiochus did) happens after the 42 months God gives the anti-Christ the authority to rule, and wage war upon us, oppressing us as set out in Revelation chapter 13.

Thus reading Rev 13:14-15 has happening after Rev 13:5, resonates with the abomination of desolation coming at the midpoint of the one 'seven' as per Daniel 9:27.

[douggg]

11 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I have often asked, but never gotten an answer, where does this false narrative come from ? Nowhere in scriptures does it say that the Jews accept a False Messiah. The Day of Christ (Lord) does not happen until the Rapture. And Malachi 4:5-6 says Elijah will be sent to turn Israel back to God BEFORE the Day of the Lord !!

Anti-Christ means false messiah.   And the messiah in biblical framework refers to the promised great King of Israel, to lead the Jews and the rest of the world into the messianic age of peace and safety.    You are probably not thinking of Antichrist as being someone who will be anointed the King of israel -but in the Christian mindset of Christ being the savior from our sins.... and assuming that the Jews view the messiah likewise as a savior.    But they don't think of the messiah in those terms, because they are going by the biblical framework of messiah meaning "anointed".    All of the kings and priests of Israel were anointeds.

"the " messiah is the one special anointed, the promised great King of Israel, descended from David.    The Jews believe that the messiah will teach them how to follow Torah.    They don't believe of the messiah as being a savior in the same way which we believe in Jesus as our savior.

 

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

1Jon2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.