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No Bible basis for a 70 week period at the end of time or a "70th" week at the end of time


BobRyan

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Whether one needs to call it the 70th week and separate 69 weeks and the last week by nearly a 2000 years or not, there remains a period of time coming, in the words of Jesus, that looks a great deal like seven 360 day periods of time. Jesus spoke specifically to the end of the age and the sign of His coming when asked, "What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?"

How is the time period called "the beginning of sorrows" explained? Can't say its 2000 years long, no explicit text for that. 

How is it that "the beginning of sorrows" is associated with the A of D if not a period directly before?

Why would Jesus say, "but the end is not yet" if "the beginning of sorrows" was not closely associated with the A of D and the GT?

Why would Jesus say, "the generation that sees all these things" if a single generation wasn't able to see them all, i.e., beginning of sorrows, A of D, GT,  the sign, the coming of Jesus, and the gathering? 

In other words, only a single generation could see them all. So then the beginning of sorrows is a significant time period, closely associated in time with the A of D, GT, and the gathering hence, it's an end time period of certain duration, much less than 2000 years, occurring before the final 42 months. Likely the prophesied 42 months of the two witnesses, during construction of the Third Temple, before the A of D.

The apostles asked the questions, "What will be the sign of your coming, and the end of the age?" 

Peter and John relate us it's the last days and apparently has been since Pentecost. But the apostles asked about the signs of the end of the age, which I would think is the ending of the age of the "Last Days". In other words the disciples wanted to know what would occur at the last of the last days.

And our Lord told them. And us.

The destruction of the Temple in 70 AD would not have been one of the things that would have to occur at the end of the age. Jesus spoke to this before the questions, "What will be the sign of your coming, and the end of the age?" were asked, and Jesus did not include the destruction of the Temple in His answer, so that's a separate prophecy that would occur in the last days, it did, and not at the end of the last days.

Further, Jesus told us to look to the prophet Daniel for the reality of the A of D. Since Jesus was detailing the end of the age surrounding the 'generation that sees all these things' then the exhortation to look to Daniel the prophet for the truth of the A of D, and the permission to understand, relates to us the A of D that will occur during the end of the age, just prior to Jesus return.

In that case then there is a 7 year period yet to be fulfilled, "...he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week...". A 7 year period which fits neatly with the answer Jesus gave in the three Gospels:

Beginning of Sorrows.   1st half, 3.5 years.

A of D                             Midpoint

Great Tribulation          In the last 1/2, 3 years. (?)

Jesus Appears                In the last 1/2, 3 years. (?)

Gathering                      In the last 1/2, 3 years. (?) 

 Wrath                            Balance of the last 1/2.

And what about Daniel saying, "... in the middle..."? If there is a middle there has to be a before and an after. If there is no 'before' then the middle becomes the beginning and he prophecy would not be fulfilled as spoken. If we are to look to Daniel as Jesus commanded, for the understanding of the A of D, then all the associated facts are relevant. There is a first half, middle, second half of the end of the age, "for one week", as it is written.

What of the two witnesses? Does it make sense their 42 month ministry would be after the A of D, concurrent with the reign of the beast? No, it does not.

If the two witnesses ministry is concurrent with the 42 month time of power for Satan and the beast then the two witnesses would be competing with the beast. Maybe. But doubtful as God gave power to the beast over the WHOLE earth. 

If the two witnesses ministry is in the second half then the two witnesses would endure the stretch of several months of God's wrath. God does not subject His people to His wrath, so this cannot be.

If the two witnesses ministry is in the second half then the two witnesses are killed in Jerusalem by the beast, and the world has a three day party at the same time the beast is wrapped in chains and thrown in the pit. This means the beast could not kill the two witnesses as prophesied. Further, is the world really going to have a three day party after God's wrath, or during?  Meaning the beast would have to kill the two witnesses at the moment of his defeat when his 42 months end, and the world will hold the big party for three days after the end of God's wrath, while the dead bodies of the witnesses lay in the street for three days; then are reanimated and ascend, then the world is scared, and their enemies behold this,  all after the fierceness of God's wrath is completed. 

That just doesn't seem too likely. 

More likely is that the two witnesses ministry is in a 42 month period before the beast is given power. Which means there is a 7 year period at the end of the age with two halves both of 42 months duration.

 The evidence is overwhelming.

Edited by Diaste
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9 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

Except the part where Israel wasn't a nation for 14000 years, until their return from oblivion in 1948. Which leads us to rule #4:

4) God makes the rules and can divide or split up what He likes.

not to be too picky, but I think that's 1,400 years not 14,000.....

 

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On 8/30/2018 at 4:46 AM, Diaste said:

Whether one needs to call it the 70th week and separate 69 weeks and the last week by nearly a 2000 years or not, there remains a period of time coming, in the words of Jesus, that looks a great deal like seven 360 day periods of time. Jesus spoke specifically to the end of the age and the sign of His coming when asked, "What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?"

How is the time period called "the beginning of sorrows" explained? Can't say its 2000 years long, no explicit text for that. 

How is it that "the beginning of sorrows" is associated with the A of D if not a period directly before?

Why would Jesus say, "but the end is not yet" if "the beginning of sorrows" was not closely associated with the A of D and the GT?

Why would Jesus say, "the generation that sees all these things" if a single generation wasn't able to see them all, i.e., beginning of sorrows, A of D, GT,  the sign, the coming of Jesus, and the gathering? 

In other words, only a single generation could see them all. So then the beginning of sorrows is a significant time period, closely associated in time with the A of D, GT, and the gathering hence, it's an end time period of certain duration, much less than 2000 years, occurring before the final 42 months. Likely the prophesied 42 months of the two witnesses, during construction of the Third Temple, before the A of D.

The apostles asked the questions, "What will be the sign of your coming, and the end of the age?" 

Peter and John relate us it's the last days and apparently has been since Pentecost. But the apostles asked about the signs of the end of the age, which I would think is the ending of the age of the "Last Days". In other words the disciples wanted to know what would occur at the last of the last days.

And our Lord told them. And us.

The destruction of the Temple in 70 AD would not have been one of the things that would have to occur at the end of the age. Jesus spoke to this before the questions, "What will be the sign of your coming, and the end of the age?" were asked, and Jesus did not include the destruction of the Temple in His answer, so that's a separate prophecy that would occur in the last days, it did, and not at the end of the last days.

Further, Jesus told us to look to the prophet Daniel for the reality of the A of D. Since Jesus was detailing the end of the age surrounding the 'generation that sees all these things' then the exhortation to look to Daniel the prophet for the truth of the A of D, and the permission to understand, relates to us the A of D that will occur during the end of the age, just prior to Jesus return.

In that case then there is a 7 year period yet to be fulfilled, "...he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week...". A 7 year period which fits neatly with the answer Jesus gave in the three Gospels:

Beginning of Sorrows.   1st half, 3.5 years.

A of D                             Midpoint

Great Tribulation          In the last 1/2, 3 years. (?)

Jesus Appears                In the last 1/2, 3 years. (?)

Gathering                      In the last 1/2, 3 years. (?) 

 Wrath                            Balance of the last 1/2.

And what about Daniel saying, "... in the middle..."? If there is a middle there has to be a before and an after. If there is no 'before' then the middle becomes the beginning and he prophecy would not be fulfilled as spoken. If we are to look to Daniel as Jesus commanded, for the understanding of the A of D, then all the associated facts are relevant. There is a first half, middle, second half of the end of the age, "for one week", as it is written.

What of the two witnesses? Does it make sense their 42 month ministry would be after the A of D, concurrent with the reign of the beast? No, it does not.

If the two witnesses ministry is concurrent with the 42 month time of power for Satan and the beast then the two witnesses would be competing with the beast. Maybe. But doubtful as God gave power to the beast over the WHOLE earth. 

If the two witnesses ministry is in the second half then the two witnesses would endure the stretch of several months of God's wrath. God does not subject His people to His wrath, so this cannot be.

If the two witnesses ministry is in the second half then the two witnesses are killed in Jerusalem by the beast, and the world has a three day party at the same time the beast is wrapped in chains and thrown in the pit. This means the beast could not kill the two witnesses as prophesied. Further, is the world really going to have a three day party after God's wrath, or during?  Meaning the beast would have to kill the two witnesses at the moment of his defeat when his 42 months end, and the world will hold the big party for three days after the end of God's wrath, while the dead bodies of the witnesses lay in the street for three days; then are reanimated and ascend, then the world is scared, and their enemies behold this,  all after the fierceness of God's wrath is completed. 

That just doesn't seem too likely. 

More likely is that the two witnesses ministry is in a 42 month period before the beast is given power. Which means there is a 7 year period at the end of the age with two halves both of 42 months duration.

 The evidence is overwhelming.

It is kind of strange: what seems very unlikely to you is exactly what the bible tells us. Maybe it is because you don't understand perfectly that it seems unlikely. The truth is, the two witnesses SHOW UP right at John's first mention, which will be just 3 1/2 days before the abomination that will divide the week.  They will testify for their 1260 days, which will take them to just 3 1/2 days before the end of the week. They will then be killed and lay dead for those 3 1/2 days.

The question is, what will things be like in the world in those last 3 1/2 days of the 70th week? The days of GT will have ended sometime previous to this, for God will have shortened the days of GT as He said. I submit that the effects of the vials poured out may still be in effect. In other words, darkness.  But with modern technology, the two witnesses will for sure be on camera and be seen and watched around the world.  They will lay dead for those 3 1/2 days, when really nothing is going on. The vials of God's wrath will have stopped almost anything going on  - except for the rejoicing over the deaths of the two witnesses. 

At this time the entire world will KNOW that is a God and they He has been angry. All will be scared out of their wits wondering what will come next. But as well as God, they will have blamed the two witnesses perhaps more than God for all that has happened, including the vials of His wrath.  

After the 2 1/2 days, the FINAL DAY of the 70th week and of the Jewish age will end. there will now be only 24 hours left. And in that last 24 hours, God will raise up the Old Testament saints - and that will cause the world's worst earthquake. God will pour out the last vial and this earthquake will shake the mountains down into the earth, to be no more.

This is what is written. It may not seem "likely" but it is God's word and will surely come to pass. 

The "beginning of sorrows goes with "the end is not yet," and is church age.  The first five seals cover this age. And part of Jesus' discourse.

Then comes the first half of the week, which Jesus jumped over - with the trumpet judgments.

Then comes the midpoint marked by the 7th trumpet. 

That will begin the days of great tribulation as Satan goes first after those that fled into the wilderness, and then after the remnant of those that love Jesus. (The rest went out at the pretrib rapture - only a remnant is left.)

Then, towards the end of the last 1260 days, God will pour out the vials - in one hour, the first 6.  It will stop the murders, as the armies of the Beast will be rendered helpless. So the 1260 days will continue, but they will NOT be days of GT. 

Then the end of the week comes, with the 7th vial.

Then some UNKNOWN time later, Jesus will descend from heaven and from the marriage and supper to the battle of ARmageddon.

I know, some try to move the days of GT to the seals: that theory is MYTH, not following the scriptures.

Note carefully, the last 3 1.2 days when the two witnesses lay dead will be BEFORE Jesus comes and BEFORE the Beast is captured - perhaps 30 days before. 

Edited by iamlamad
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On 8/23/2018 at 3:33 PM, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Of course, numbers mean literal counts. What have you been smoking? If words do not have a recognized common meaning then what good are they? 1260 days are 1260 days. 1000 years are 1000 years. A (shaw-boo-ah), translated "week", is seven of something. The context determines what it is seven of. Who is teaching you this stuff? Whoever it is, quit listening to him or her.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

It is amazing how people try to put God in a box and say He cannot do something.  What if God wanted to say 1260 days and actually MEANT days? Of course God can do this!

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1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

 

Beginning of Sorrows.   1st half, 3.5 years. Two witnesses warn Israel for 42 months

A of D                             Midpoint. Two witnesses killed

Great Tribulation          In the last 1/2, undetermined duration. All the people of Jesus persecuted the rest of the world takes the mark.

Jesus Appears                In the last 1/2, undetermined timing but perhaps just months prior to the end.

Gathering                      In the last 1/2 at the time Jesus appears to the world.

 Wrath                            Balance of the last 1/2.

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3 hours ago, Diaste said:
4 hours ago, iamlamad said:
On 9/20/2018 at 7:16 PM, Sojourner414 said:
On 8/23/2018 at 1:33 PM, Steve Conley said:

Have you guys considered that the ministry of the two witnesses could overlap the first half and second half of the 70th week?

They will witness to the Jews. This has to be in the first half because at the midpoint onward, Jerusalem is invaded by the Antichrist.

They will witness to the Gentiles. Their ministry would have to overlap into the second half for them to minister to the Gentiles who trample Jerusalem for the 42 month period. This includes the calling down of plagues on the Gentiles.

When is their resurrection?. The Hebrew harvests have three components: a first fruits, a primary and a gleanings resurrection. Would it not make sense that the two Witnesses are resurrected during the primary resurrection? If the resurrection is post-trib, then they would still be here after Jesus' physical return.

The drought of the two witnesses corresponds with the famine of the third year. No rain falls during the ministry of the two witnesses. This would take place during some portion of the first week.

What about Plagues? These would most likely take place after the invasion of Israel during the second half of the 70th week.

Celebrations? Why would the nations celebrate the death of the two witnesses at the midpoint, when they wouldn't have experienced the fullness of their ministry; the plagues and withholding of the rain. Why would they celebrate at the end of the 70th week? They have just experienced the full wrath of God, and are ready for war with Him. Who has time to celebrate and give gifts?

Peace and safety after their deaths. This is highly unlikely at the end of the 70th week, when the nations will be preparing for war with Jesus. This is also highly unlikely during the first half of the week, with the ongoing wars of the Antichrist against Egypt and the western nations. Also, the Great Tribulation would have just begun. 

What about an earthquake. Rev 11:13 says an earthquake happens at the resurrection of the two witnesses. There is also one at the 7 vial, but as shown above, this is at the battle of Armageddon, and 3 1/2 days after that makes no sense..But there is a great earthquake at the seventh seal. 

So, the most likely timing for the ministry of the two witnesses is from the 3rd year to the end of the sixth year. 

Your thoughts?

 

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We don't have to guess on the two witnesses: John is clear when we understand: they show up at first mention, which will be 3 1/2 days before the midpoint. They testify for 1260 days and then are killed just 3 1/2 days from the end of the week. They will lay dead for those 3 1/2 days, and God will raise them up at the 7th vial that ends the week. They will be raised with all the rest of the Old Testament saints  - at the 7th vial.

Therefore there IS a slight overlap: 3 1/2 days.

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6 hours ago, Diaste said:

Beginning of Sorrows.   1st half, 3.5 years. Two witnesses warn Israel for 42 months

A of D                             Midpoint. Two witnesses killed

Great Tribulation          In the last 1/2, undetermined duration. All the people of Jesus persecuted the rest of the world takes the mark.

Jesus Appears                In the last 1/2, undetermined timing but perhaps just months prior to the end.

Gathering                      In the last 1/2 at the time Jesus appears to the world.

 Wrath                            Balance of the last 1/2.

I guess if you just want to make something up, that is OK, but it is NOT John's chronology. 

All 5 events that are mentioned with the 3 1/2 year period of time are for the last half of the week, INCLUDING the 2 witnesses.  They show up at first mention, just like almost every other event in Revelation. 

You are missing a parenthesis. 

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