pretrib Timing of the Rapture

[Dennis1209]

16 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Yes, he is expressing every Christian's hope beyond this world, the blessed assurance of eternal life and immortality at His return.  There's nothing to indicate that he considers it imminent.  It's just what he was looking forward to, as we should as well.  It's that blessed hope that should motivate us to live godly in a world of wickedness, which is the context of that passage.

Ever heard of "the doctrine of imminency", that the Lord could return anytime after the Day of Pentecost? In Titus 2: 12 Paul uses the word "us", meaning including him (Paul). In verse 13, he uses the word "looking", meaning awaiting, looking for, by implication anytime soon in his lifetime. Anyway, that's my hermeneutical view.

[OneLight]

10 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi OneLight,

The `last` depends on what sequence of things you are taking about - 7th (last)trumpet call of God to the wicked, or the last trumpet call to the Body of Christ. Definitely not the same.

regards, Marilyn.

I am not debating which trumpet is the last trumpet, and scripture is not clear on when it will be blown or which it is, and that is my point.  We don't know, but it will be at the last trump.  Do you disagree?

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Ever heard of "the doctrine of imminency", that the Lord could return anytime after the Day of Pentecost? In Titus 2: 12 Paul uses the word "us", meaning including him (Paul). In verse 13, he uses the word "looking", meaning awaiting, looking for, by implication anytime soon in his lifetime. Anyway, that's my hermeneutical view.

Yes, I've heard of it, and I'm confused by it.

Jesus tells His disciples to go and preach the gospel to all the nations, and oh, by the way, I might return tomorrow?  Does that really make sense to you?

[simplejeff]

24 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Yes, I've heard of it, and I'm confused by it.

Jesus tells His disciples to go and preach the gospel to all the nations, and oh, by the way, I might return tomorrow?  Does that really make sense to you?

"doctrines" of men abound on this forum, and throughout history,  throughout all (most all) of the 'churches',

and false doctrines, false teachers, false practices abound much more than truth.   "Few" find the narrow road, remember?

Jesus Himself Personally taught the Apostles and disciples in such a way as they EXPECTED EAGERLY HIS RETURN in their own lifetime   

So should we all who trust in HIM,   abiding in HIS WORD.

[Justin Adams]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

the doctrine of imminency

Mr. Darby and The Brethren.

So, pretribulationalism teaches three comings of Jesus to earth, although Dispensationalists don’t like to admit this. Along with this rapture teaching, Darby also taught his “doctrine of imminence.” That is, Jesus’ coming to rapture his church is “imminent,” meaning it could happen at “any moment.” This requires that there are no biblical prophecies that must be fulfilled prior to the rapture of the church. Past history nullifies this presupposition. For example, prior to the reestablishment of Israel as a nation in 1948, Dispensationalists were adovcates of Zionism, claiming it is prophesied in the Bible, to which I agree. But because of their doctrine of imminence, Dispensationalists would have said that this prophecy would not be fulfilled prior to the rapture, but after it, and thus they were proved wrong about that.

I was taught Dispensationalism, and thus pretribulationism, at my new church when I went to college in Houston in 1959. I believed all of it until late 1971. That’s when my personal Bible study caused me to question this teaching. I then went to Dallas Theological Seminary–the foremost Dispensational stronghold in the world–and for five consecutive days, fifteen hours each, I studied in their library books written by Darby and other Plymouth Brethren Bible teachers about this subject. I concluded that, according to the Bible, Darby’s pretribulationalism was dead wrong!

I then changed to believing what is called postribulationism. This means the Bible teaches that Jesus will return only a single, second time at the end of the tribulation and that he will then come to the earth to establish his glorious, worldwide kingdom. Thus, I no longer believed in the doctrine of imminence, which is peculiar only to pretribulationism. Actually, this posttribulational teaching, that I have held for nearly 45 years, is also called “historic premillenialism” because those early church fathers believed in it.

Darby and other Brethren teachers generally touted a hermenetic rule for interpreting biblical prophecies, and it was that they should be interpreted literally unless the context clearly indicates otherwise. But Darby and all pretribulationists seem to have been blind to fact that their doctrine of imminence sometimes prevented them from exercising this “golden rule,” as they sometimes called it, of interpreting unfulfilled biblical prophecies. That is, they had to interpret them according to the time in which they lived because of their view that the rapture could occur at any moment, and it was impossible for some of these yet unfulfilled biblical prophecies to be fulfilled within the seven years of tribulation.

An example of this duplicity in Dispensational teaching is the issue of what type of weapons will be used in fighting wars during and at the end of the tribulation. There are multiple biblical texts in which this issue arises, and foremost among them is Ezekiel 38-39. In fact, it is one of the Dispensationalists favorite eschatological texts in the Bible. It describes at length a great war in which “Gog of the land of Magog” will marshall armies of various nations (I believe all of the nations) in attacking Israel in its land. Dispensationalists usually interpreted this “Gog” as Russia or the previous Soviet Union. I think that is quite wrong and that Gog will be a man–the final Antichrist. (See my book Warrior from Heaven.)

Ezekiel the Prophet represents God in describing this multitude of forces led by Gog as an “army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed in full armor, a great company, all of them with shield and buckler, wielding swords. . . . all of them with buckler and helmet” (Ezekiel 38.4-5). But God says to Gog, “I will strike your bow from your left hand, and make your arrows drop out of your right hand. You shall fall upon the mountains of Israel, you and all your troops and the peoples that are with you. I will give you to birds of prey of every kind” (Ezekiel 39.3-4). God then adds, “Then those who live in the towns of Israel will go out and make fires of the weapons and burn them–bucklers and shields, bows and arrows, handpikes and spears–and they will make fires of them for seven years. They will not need to take wood out of the field or cut down any trees in the forests, for they will make their fires of the weapons” (vv. 9-10).

All pretribulationalists have claimed that this great war will occur either sometime during the yet future tribulation or at the end of it, as I believe. Obviously, if this scenario of primitive weapons in Ezekiel 38-39 is supposed to be interpreted literally, as pretribulationalists would otherwise do, the entire world must first disarm itself of all weapons of mass destruction as well as all other modern weapons.

But since pretribulationists believe the rapture of the church is imminent, most of them cannot accept a literal interpretation of these weapons in Ezekiel 38-39. It is because such a world disarmament obviously would require many decades to occur, thus a longer time period than a few years or a maximum of seven years after the rapture. Moreover, this pretribulationist failure to interpret these weapons in Ezekiel 38-39 literally prevents perhaps most pretribulationalists from foreseeing and advocating world disarmament of our modern weapons of mass destruction and then the less advanced weapons, such as non-nuclear missiles, bombs, guns, etc., all of which must happen if Ezekiel is right about Gog and his multitude using bows and arrows, swords, and spears to fight this great war.

That is why Hal Lindsey,in his mega bestseller The Late Great Planet Earth, and Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins, in their fiction series Left Behind, interpret such weapons in the Bible as tanks, bombs, guns, etc. They had to so interpret them because of their doctrine of imminence regarding the any moment rapture. In his Late Great Planet Earth, Lindsey inteprets these weapons in Ezekiel 38-39 as “language of accommodation.” (Lindsey and I come from the same church in Houston where we were first taught this.) On the contrary, there is nothing in the context of Ezekiel 38-39 to interpret these weapons as anything other than literal, primitive weapons. Thus, Lindsey and many other pretribulationists change Ezekiel’s language to accommodate their doctrine of imminence, and the result is that they are against world disarmament.

[http://www.patheos.com/blogs/kermitzarleyblog/2015/12/the-doctrine-of-imminence-prevents-abolishing-guns/]

[When Is Jesus Coming?]

Hi OneLight,

The `last` depends on what sequence of things you are taking about - 7th (last)trumpet call of God to the wicked, or the last trumpet call to the Body of Christ. Definitely not the same.

regards, Marilyn.

54 minutes ago, OneLight said:

I am not debating which trumpet is the last trumpet, and scripture is not clear on when it will be blown or which it is, and that is my point.  We don't know, but it will be at the last trump.  Do you disagree?

 

The last Trump refers to the prophetic Day of Trumpets which was usually held on the 1st of Tishri which is when the new moon was seen from Jerusalem on the 7th month from Aviv. However, this is not the actual last trump because every 50th year was Jubilee, when the slaves were set free, (another prophetic foreshadowing of the day God's people will be set free). Every Jubilee was announced by the blowing of trumpets but not on day 1 month 7 but on day 10 month 7 (The Day of Atonement):   

     Leviticus 25

8“ ‘Count off seven sabbath years—seven times seven years—so that the seven sabbath years amount to a period of forty-nine years. 9Then have the trumpet sounded everywhere on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement sound the trumpet throughout your land.10Consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim liberty throughout the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a jubilee for you; each of you is to return to your family property and to your own clan.

This is when the last trump will happen and Jesus returns on the clouds. 

[When Is Jesus Coming?]

On 31/10/2017 at 3:24 PM, Dennis1209 said:

No one knows the day nor the hour of our catching away. To keep my comments as brief as possible I'm omitting supporting scripture.

So... With current events and biblical prophecy, how do you all see this panning out? One thing is for certain, with each passing day the picture becomes more clear and sharper.

Jesus read this in the jubilee year of His ministry (The favourable year of the Lord):

Luke 4

17and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

18“The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, 19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

20Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

Jesus stopped short of reading the next line: 

Isaiah 61

and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn,

This is the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord. Which will also happen on a Jubilee year because Jubilee was when the slaves were set free, which was a prophetic foreshadowing of when God's people will be set free. 

Therefore 29AD + 20 Jubilee's = 2029AD

 

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, simplejeff said:

"doctrines" of men abound on this forum, and throughout history,  throughout all (most all) of the 'churches',

and false doctrines, false teachers, false practices abound much more than truth.   "Few" find the narrow road, remember?

Jesus Himself Personally taught the Apostles and disciples in such a way as they EXPECTED EAGERLY HIS RETURN in their own lifetime   

So should we all who trust in HIM,   abiding in HIS WORD.

Jesus taught His disciples to prioritize the eternal things of God above the temporary things of this earth.  This is echoed numerous times by the apostles.  For example:

• Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.  Colossians 3:2

The reason for looking for and longing for the return of Christ is that it keeps us focused on living our lives according to the will of God because none of us knows the number of our days.  In that sense, our being with Him when we die is imminent but His return is not.

• And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.  1 John 3:3

Paul did not believe that the return of Christ was imminent.  He knew that before our gathering together to Jesus at His return on the day of the Lord, that something had to take place first (2 Thessalonians 2).  His return couldn't have been imminent if anything had to happen first.

 

[simplejeff]

Instead, 'tis much better, right, to stick with what is actually written ?

for quick example:  (maybe a dozen or more) >

http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/prophet.htm

"In much of the new testament, we see Paul who also warns of the nearness of Christ's return.

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[simplejeff]

Only with regard to Jesus soon return:   (nothing to do with rapture, as far as I am aware) , from Devotion by @George .

"by George Whitten, Editor of Worthy Devotions.

Isaiah 51:5 My righteousness is near; My salvation is gone forth, and My arm [z’roah in Hebrew] shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on My arm [z’roah] they will trust.

John 5:22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,

Revelation 19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.

On December 25, 1908, a newspaper in Messina, Silicy dared God to make Himself known by sending an earthquake. Three days later, the city was destroyed by an earthquake that killed over 84,000 people.

Do we really believe that Yeshua (Jesus) is returning soon? He is – He's coming back to judge this world and no one will escape His wrath except those whose sins are forgiven

through living faith in His atoning sacrifice.

 

The world in its increasing sinfulness, rejecting His Son, seems to be daring God to bring judgment...."