50 Reasons for the Pre-tribulation Rapture

[Wayne222]

7 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

Again, we have an assertion made. Let's just look at the very first part of the first sentence:

"The rapture takes place several years before the literal advent of Christ to the Earth"

Now, we are given three verses here that supposedly prove this. I'm just going to post these verses and let everyone decide for themselves if they actually say that.

Jud 1:14  Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,

Rev 19:14  And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.

Zec 14:5  Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with You.

 

Now, it doesn't look to me like any of those verses says explicitly, or implicitly, that "the rapture takes place several years before the literal advent of Christ to the earth"... but, that's just me.

And I'm sure folks may wonder where all those saints that are with God in heaven come from that are being mentioned here. Well, actually, the bible does specifically address that!

Rev 7:13  Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" 
Rev 7:14  And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 
Rev 7:15  Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.

As an aside, notice how it mentions up there in revelation 19:14 that the armies in heaven are clothed in fine linen, white and clean? The saints explicitly mentioned in Revelation as having white robes are the ones who come out of the tribulation, in fact not once in Revelation (nor anywhere else in the bible) are we told that saints are raptured before the tribulation and put in white robes.

I agree with you. I never have believed that the saints are rapture before the great tribulation. It makes no sense of the text. People love to believe that. In Matt 24 there is no mention of it either. Or of Christ coming for the saints in those passages.  Only after the tribulation does it show Christ coming for the elect.

[Quasar93]

8 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Did not even read the list. Looked at that first one, and thought:

"An interesting admission. Imagine that, the Bible (2 Thess 2) supports post-tribulation, but we should go with a few non biblical opinions from the early church, where  imminency is expressed?"

That has always been the problem with many who hold the pre-trib rapture position. They think that commentary is more reliable that scripture.

I should also point out, that the idea of imminency as some think of it (that Jesus can return at any moment, without any further events needing to take place, is also not a scriptural one. Not going to derail that topic by going into those details, but the interested can get more info in another thread:

 

 

Dr. Walvoord was referring to Amillennialism showing up in the early Church as 2 Thess.2 did.  However, the teachings of the pre-trib rapture of the Church was in the Scriptures before the Bible was ever printed, as recorded below:

he Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church 

 Mt.24:31:
[/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

1 Thes.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.


Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!


The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf


Quasar92

[Steve_S]

16 minutes ago, Quasar93 said:

he Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church 

 Mt.24:31:
[/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven?

I think that it'd be pretty important to look at this particular verse in its actual context, since you chose it to highlight a pre-trib rapture position.

Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 
Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 
Mat 24:31  And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 

I'd ask you to keep in mind that this sequence here starts with a thought (Immediately after the tribulation...), continues the thought (Then) and then completes the thought (and). Immediately after the tribulation of those days... then... and...

I think it's interesting that you have bracketed there that the church will be raptured before the seven year tribulation begins, even though two verses prior, it is quite obvious that Christ is speaking about a period that is immediately after the tribulation. A pretty good example of the piecemeal assembly of verses that is required by pre-trib theology.

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

3 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

And with all due respect: please  don't say "we cannot understand God's ways" as a means of avoiding that issue.

I wouldn't think to do that, as it is not necessary. I will go into detail on your question soon, but not tonight, too busy. However, until I do that, suffice it to say that your proposal is build upon faulty premises, as I will demonstrate later.

[Quasar93]

24 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

I think that it'd be pretty important to look at this particular verse in its actual context, since you chose it to highlight a pre-trib rapture position.

Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 
Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 
Mat 24:31  And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 

I'd ask you to keep in mind that this sequence here starts with a thought (Immediately after the tribulation...), continues the thought (Then) and then completes the thought (and). Immediately after the tribulation of those days... then... and...

I think it's interesting that you have bracketed there that the church will be raptured before the seven year tribulation begins, even though two verses prior, it is quite obvious that Christ is speaking about a period that is immediately after the tribulation. A pretty good example of the piecemeal assembly of verses that is required by pre-trib theology.

 

 

 

Jesus ministry in His first advent was EXCLUSIVELY to Israel, He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 and in Mt.10:5-6.  The CHURCH DID NOT EXIST THEN because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, ccording to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus had ascended into heaven.  Mt.24:30-31 id addressed to Israel and has nothing at all to do with the Church.

 

Quasar93

[Steve_S]

2 minutes ago, Quasar93 said:

 

 

Jesus ministry in His first advent was EXCLUSIVELY to Israel, He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 and in Mt.10:5-6.  The CHURCH DID NOT EXIST THEN because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, ccording to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus had ascended into heaven.  Mt.24:30-31 id addressed to Israel and has nothing at all to do with the Church.

 

Quasar93

Well, firstly, if that's the case, why did you post it as proof that there's a pre-trib rapture, as your first given verse, as a matter of fact?

Secondly, where does the text say that it is specifically addressed to Israel and has nothing to do with the church?

[wingnut-]

3 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

But no one would be left in their mortal bodies to have children; if the Rapture happened at the Second Coming. Since Scripture says that there will be children during the Millennium, there have to be people who can have children, and they cannot do that if they are transformed into their eternal bodies (Scripture states that we will not procreate). The Rapture has to be before the Second coming; there's no way around that.

If we die once (with some notable exceptions throughout history) and then face a judgment/evaluation, then children who died before making a choice aren't going to come back "for a second round". Since the Church is never stated to turn against the Lord in eternity, we know the final rebellion won't come from those who were saved and are transfigured in the Rapture. The only place then that the rebellion will come from (since those who die before 100 years old will be considered "accursed", according to Isaiah) will be the children, grand children and great-grandchildren (and so forth) of those who can still have children.

They cannot do that if the Rapture happens at the Second Coming, where ALL those who trust in Christ are taken.

And with all due respect: please  don't say "we cannot understand God's ways" as a means of avoiding that issue. This isn't an issue of God's ways and ours, but of following what Scripture says. And it says during that time that children will play safely near a cobra's den.

 

That would be this group right here, which of course, is the only group in the entire book of Revelation to repent.

 

Revelation 11:13 And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

[wingnut-]

1 minute ago, Sojourner414 said:

Since the Post-trib rapture theory says it would happen at the Second cCming, those saved out of this group too would be raptured, so they wouldn't be able to have children either.

 

Well, I am not exactly post-trib, about an hour difference, so look to the verse that precedes that one, and you will see the gathering prior to it. 

[Pudgenik]

There will be a few (2 - 3) from this websight who will pass away before the tribulation, but everyone else as i will experience its beginning before your death.

There will be some who will live through all of it.

[Pipirip]

If the rapture in the Bible? To find the truth about this issue search End TimeProphecy. Google it and you will see that this teaching is not biblical.