Who and What are the Elect ?

[missmuffet]

41 minutes ago, Davida said:

Lol! that is totally false.

Quasar93  has proved everything he has said using scripture, but you have not.

When people just have opinions it goes no where with me.

[Heleadethme]

On 12/23/2017 at 11:49 AM, Justin Adams said:

I am unsure you can ignore any of Yeshua's people - Pentecost is irrelevant from you argument since it is not a scriptural benchmark to support what you are saying. If I were you, I would leave that up to the Lord to decide. You have no idea when the Lord decided the 'church' began.

I believe this is a valid point.......the Israelites coming out of Egypt was called the church in the wilderness, and all from olden days who knew the Lord through faith are part of the church......from even before Abraham (example Enoch and Noah) through both old and new testament times.....the Israel of God....of which the physical nation of Israel was an ensample (ie, was a prophetic representation of the Israel of God, the church - like a living parable). 

That said, all of Israel was called......and the gifts and calling are without repentance, ie, the Lord does not change His mind about their gifts and calling........and they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for their sakes.  So we are to pray and hope and labour for the Jews, natural Israel, to come to faith in their Messiah and fulfill their calling.  How the Lord gave me to understand it is that the church is not their replacement, rather the church is their fulfillment, so to speak....they are the natural branches of it when they come to faith in Yeshua.

[Daniel 11:36]

"Is that so? You're not a big fan of scripture are you?"

 

All of it .... not just a part

[Unfailing Presence]

Jesus used the term  " elect "  very sparingly , 4 or 5 times ,  & ONLY in direct connection  to a people He said were inextricably linked to a place revered by them as being holy . 

A " holy place "  :

                                        "  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet , stand in the holy place . "                                                                                                                                                   ( Matthew 24 : 15 )

I know many Christians , but I have yet to meet on who believes a location on earth to be a   " holy place "  to be worshiped .

And I have yet to hear on this forum any Christian say they believe a location to be   "  holy " .

If you do not believe in a physical  " holy place " then  Jesus's instruction concerning events surrounding the " holy place "   are applicable to you . 

Only to the " elect " is Jesus speaking in terms of the " holy place " . 

[hmbld]

17 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

 

Christian authority is all recognized denominations and Bible Colleges.  And from which did you receive your qualifications to teach eschatology?

 

Quasar93  

I see you esteem yourself worthy of sitting at the good seat. I prefer to sit back in the corner.  Especially if teach doesn’t recognize where authority comes from. 

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Davida said:

Lol! that is totally false.

Quasar93  has proved everything he has said using scripture, but you have not.

Certainly. I decided to edit as an expansion seems to be required.

How would Abraham, Isaac or, Jacob have scripture? The Jews were not a nation until the 12 brothers landed in Egypt. Centuries later Moses appeared. Moses wrote the Pentateuch. How did Abraham, Isaac or, Jacob know God sans scripture? Even if one believes Job lived and wrote the book that bears his name some 4000 years before Abraham, nothing says Abraham read or even knew about this book.

I'm just saying, the truth of God comes from God and not mankind.

 

Edited December 25, 2017 by Diaste

[Psalms37:4]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

Matt 24

Mark 13

Luke 21

2 Thess 2

The only gathering explicitly stated and that at the end of the last week.

Diaste,

Here's Luke 21, the entire chapter. Where does it mention a gathering at the end of the tribulation? Correction, let me put it in your own words. Where is it EXPLICITLY STATED there's a gathering at the end of the last week?

I'm not denying there will be one, rather I'm asking do you know what you're talking about when posting scripture? I would hope you do if you're gonna use words like explicitly stated.

 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke 21&version=NKJV

Luke 21New King James Version (NKJV)

The Widow’s Two Mites

21 And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury, ² and He saw also a certain poor widow putting in two mites. ³ So He said, “Truly I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all;⁴ for all these out of their abundance have put in offerings for God, but she out of her poverty put in all the livelihood that she had.”

Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple

⁵ Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, ⁶ “These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.”

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age

⁷ So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

⁸ And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ Therefore do not go after them. ⁹ But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not comeimmediately.”

¹⁰ Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. ¹¹ And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. ¹² But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you,delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. ¹³ But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. ¹⁴ Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; ¹⁵ for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.¹⁶ You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. ¹⁷ And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. ¹⁸ But not a hair of your head shall be lost. ¹⁹ By your patience possess your souls.

The Destruction of Jerusalem

²⁰ “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. ²¹ Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. ²² For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. ²³ But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. ²⁴ And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The Coming of the Son of Man

²⁵ “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; ²⁶ men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ²⁷ Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. ²⁸ Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

The Parable of the Fig Tree

²⁹ Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. ³⁰ When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. ³¹ So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. ³² Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place.³³ Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

The Importance of Watching

³⁴ “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.³⁵ For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. ³⁶ Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

³⁷ And in the daytime He was teaching in the temple, but at night He went out and stayed on the mountain called Olivet. ³⁸ Then early in the morning all the people came to Him in the temple to hear Him.

 

 

 

[ForHisGlory37]

7 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

² But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you,delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. ¹³ But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. ¹⁴ Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; ¹⁵ for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.¹⁶ You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. ¹⁷ And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. ¹⁸ But not a hair of your head shall be lost. ¹⁹ By your patience possess your souls.

Psalm37, why do you only choose Luke 21?  You know very well that in Matthew 24:29  it says,immediately after the tribulation of those days.....v. 30 AND THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  v. 31 AND he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 

Luke 21 is another perspective but it's still the same. 

v.12-19 tells you the tribulations that we as saints are going to go through.  Matthew 24 tells we will go through the tribulations and then Jesus comes whereas in Luke, it gives you more detail as to what will happen during that tribulation time, i.e. lay their hands on you, persecute you, deliver you up to the synagogues and prison.  You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relative, and friends; and they will put some of you to death.  And you will be hated y all for My name's sake. (Sounds like tribulation to me)

God's Word never contradicts itself, you should know that. 

 

Edited December 25, 2017 by ForHisGlory37

[Psalms37:4]

14 minutes ago, ForHisGlory37 said:

Psalm37, why do you only choose Luke 21?

Maybe because Diaste listed Luke 21 in his list and said  "The only gathering explicitly stated and that at the end of the last week?"

Ask Diaste why he listed Luke 21 in his list.

14 minutes ago, ForHisGlory37 said:

 You know very well that in Matthew 24:29  it says,immediately after the tribulation of those days.....v. 30 AND THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  v. 31 AND he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 

Luke 21 is another perspective but it's still the same. 

v.12-19 tells you the tribulations that we as saints are going to go through.  Matthew 24 tells we will go through the tribulations and then Jesus comes whereas in Luke, it gives you more detail as to what will happen during that tribulation time, i.e. lay their hands on you, persecute you, deliver you up to the synagogues and prison.  You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relative, and friends; and they will put some of you to death.  And you will be hated y all for My name's sake. (Sounds like tribulation to me)

God's Word never contradicts itself, you should know that. 

God's word never ever ever contradicts itself. Only people will try to force the issue. You should know Matthew 24:29-31 and Luke 21:12-19 are NOT parallel verses.

 

Matthew 24:29-31 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁹ “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ³⁰ Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ³¹ And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

Luke 21:12-19 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹² But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. ¹³ But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. ¹⁴ Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; ¹⁵ for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. ¹⁶ You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. ¹⁷ And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. ¹⁸ But not a hair of your head shall be lost. ¹⁹ By your patience possess your souls.

 

There's no gathering explicitly stated in Luke 21:12-19. 

Try another scripture.

[ForHisGlory37]

39 minutes ago, Psalms37:4 said:

Maybe because Diaste listed Luke 21 in his list and said  "The only gathering explicitly stated and that at the end of the last week?"

Ask Diaste why he listed Luke 21 in his list.

God's word never ever ever contradicts itself. Only people will try to force the issue. You should know Matthew 24:29-31 and Luke 21:12-19 are NOT parallel verses.

 

Matthew 24:29-31 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁹ “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ³⁰ Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ³¹ And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

Luke 21:12-19 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹² But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. ¹³ But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. ¹⁴ Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; ¹⁵ for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. ¹⁶ You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. ¹⁷ And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. ¹⁸ But not a hair of your head shall be lost. ¹⁹ By your patience possess your souls.

 

There's no gathering explicitly stated in Luke 21:12-19. 

Try another scripture.

I didn't say they were parallel verses... I said that Matthew tells of when Jesus comes (immediately after the tribulation)  and then Luke 21 tells what will happen before the tribulation comes.......  not forcing anything.... you just need to let the Spirit open your eyes of understanding.....

 

Here is an example of this from the movie God's Not Dead 2 on youtube God's Not Dead 2-James Warner Wallace  

In Matthew 26: 65-68 (when Jesus is brought before Caiphus) Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses?  behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.  What think ye?  They answered and said, He is guilty of death. Then did they spit in his face, and beffeted him; and other smote him with the palms of their hands, Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?  Here we ask ourselves why would it be prophesy to ask who hit you?  

Well, when we read Luke we get the answer. 

Luke 22:63-64  And the men that held Jesus mocked him, and smote him.  And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face, and asked him, saying, Prophesy, who is it that smote thee?

Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, 2 Thessalonians 2  all talk about the last days, some what will happen before the tribulation, all from different perspectives but all giving the same narrative.  No contradictions.  No forcing of Scripture.....  Precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little, there a little..............

Edited December 25, 2017 by ForHisGlory37