The Dark Side of Christianity

[FresnoJoe]

8 hours ago, missmuffet said:

John 3: 15-16  that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

If a person is promised eternal life, but then have it taken away, it was never eternal life to begin with, if eternal security is not true the promises of eternal life in the Bible is a lie.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:24

7 hours ago, HAZARD said:

They were taught that true eternal security was by walking in the spirit....
and not fulfilling the works of the flesh (Gal. 5:16-26; 6:7, 8)....

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:23-28

7 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Many men who were formerly saved....
have gone back into sin and have been lost

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 1 John 2:19

Walking

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Hebrew 3:12

Talking

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

Hope

Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost. Romans 15:13

~

Love, Your Brother Joe

[HAZARD]

3 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

How do you know they were saved, and not just merely professing to believe? It is God alone who know the heart, and God alone who changes the heart. All we can do is look for evidence of their faith in their lives. Do you suppose, that an unregenerate person (enemies of God they are called in the Bible) can believe God, turn from his sin, and then embrace God? I do not. I think that scripture indicated that God is the proactive party, He draws people to Himself, reveals Himself, changes hearts, and THEN they are able to repent and come to Him. That is why it is grace,  because the only contribution we made to our own salvation, is the sin we needed to be saved from. That is why the Bible speaks to being born from above. Spiritual birth is of God, and by that, He has seen fit to adopt us into His family, and make us coheirs with His only begotten Son.

Once having been adopted, which is a measure that parents do to make children part of the family, God does not unadopt His family. Some my be rebellious, and run off for a while, but they are still family. The true children of God, recognize their sins, and repent, like the prodigal son.

In contrast to the unregenerate people who come to God when they have no Spirit living in them and are spiritually blind, deaf, slaves to sin, enemies of God and incapable of understanding the things of God, you have true, born again believers. How is it, that a person who now has the Spirit living in him, and now spiritually sees and hears, is freed from slavery to sin, no longer an enemy of God but a lover of God who does understand . . . then choose to walk away from the love and understanding of God that he now possesses? He might have a momentary lapse in behavior, and even a temporary crises of faith, but he is now receptive to God and His calling in ways that were not even possible pre-salvation, and no one can pluck him out of God's hand, no one means not even one. Since not anyone can, that necessarily includes himself.

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:27-28).

We still wrestle, of course, we have a new nature, those of us who are actually born again, but we still have the old nature to deal with, our sin nature. Sin lives in us (Romans 7), but He who lives in us is stronger, and He gives us the ability to resist temptation (1 Cor 10:13).

18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they  went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

I suggest, that the above is a rough description of those who at first, appear to be believers, but that their eventual actions, demonstrate that they we not of the fold. There were not among those that God gave to His Son, to inherit eternal life.

How do I know they were saved? Simple question, easy answer, unless we don't have to believe what God said and did. One of many examples;

"God gave Saul another heart . . . and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied (1 Sam. 10:9-13).

If this was not an experience of the saved man then it was nothing at all. It is also recorded that  the Spirit of God LEFT HIM WHEN HE SINNED (1 Sam. 16:12-23), especially verse 14, But  THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD DEPARTED FROM SAUL, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.  

The spirit of God does not come down on an unsaved man, who is by this saved, and he even prophesied, and then leaves when the man sins, unless he was saved in the first place.

[Blood Bought 1953]

I am I free man in Christ,free to do what I want ,funny thing is ,the very second I discovered my freedom in Christ was also the very second I found that my “wants “ had been changed.The old lifestyle I lived has no appeal to me anymore.The only thing I “want” to do these days is be kind to everybody I meet. ( motivation is love.....not some fear of the jaws of hell opening up if I am not 50% perfect ,75% perfect or whatever the legalists Believe is the standard to be saved,seeing how nobody can be 100%. Right? If I violate the freedom Jesus gave me ,trust me— He knows how to get me back in line with His chastisement.I understand what Paul meant when he said “ all things are lawful to me”. Unless Paul is a liar,I should be able to go out and rape,ravage and plunder.So why don’t I ? I don’t want to.Thats the secret of Christianity....God will change the inside of the cup. It’s kind of like a caged canary.one can open the cage door and the canary can go out and be free.freedom also includes cats,storms,hunger ,cold,heat,etc.....the cage was for his own good.a wise canary stays in its cage....wisdom shows he was better- off there all along.OSAS adherents have lived this—- you have to live it to understand it.Free is free....what do you think Jesus meant when He said....” you will know the truth and the truth will make you free.free to obey out of love and an indwelt Spirit.Not fear or trying to be “ good enough” to help the Jesus who can finish what He started.Relax  a little,let Him do it.

perfect

[FresnoJoe]

3 hours ago, HAZARD said:

The spirit of God does not come down on an unsaved man, who is by this saved, and he even prophesied, and then leaves when the man sins, unless he was saved in the first place.

Donkey 

And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times? Numbers 22:28

Talk

And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. Luke 19:14

Love, Your Brother Joe

[brakelite]

When Christ walked the earth His holy and loving character was an open and constant rebuke to the selfishness and corruptions of the Jewish leaders. From the days of Cain godliness has excited opposition. Paul said that those who lived godly lives would suffer persecution. Thus it was with the early church. Those who sought to live lives in keeping with the dictates of scripture by love and purity of mind and action, were maligned, abused, tortured and killed. Those early Christians were indeed a peculiar people. The sinner's peace is disturbed by faith and blameless character when exhibited before them. So the question must be asked. 

Why is it that today our churches excite so little opposition? While there may be opposition from certain sections of society because church teachings oppose their practice such as the LGBTQ folk, in general terms what opposition we witness is not so much because of church character, but rather because we make ourselves so obnoxious by our self righteous and contradictory teaching and practice. 

I am reminded of the wisdom spoken of by Peter when he rightly declared that there is a great difference between suffering for righteousness sake, and suffering because we misbehave badly. 

I long for that day when the true image of Christ is openly apparent in the character of His followers. Not because this will incite opposition, which it will and does, but because then the coming of our blessed Savior shall be near at hand as the bride will have made herself ready. 

[mven222]

23 hours ago, DesertSW said:

Let me first start off with a disclaimer. I believe in the Word of God and in all the fundamental tenants of Christianity. I became a Christian back in 1993 when I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I gave up trusting in my good works and put all my faith in what Jesus had done on the cross, for my salvation.

The "dark side" I speak of is something that is not really talked about or discussed in churches. I've attended all types of protestant churches in the past 25 years (Baptist, denominational, non-denominational) and not one really discussed this aspect of Christianity. It is factually evident and not just experiential, although I have personally experienced it, it is backed by factual evidence.

This dark side is about how born-again Christians will betray you and the faith. I've personally experienced 10 of those betrayals over the course of 25 years. The latest one which was my wife, and her parents, was the most devastating. You can read about it here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/211844-my-marriage-divorce-testimony/

It would take quite a bit of typing to go into deep detail on these betrayals but all of them involved true Believers who ended up betraying and hurting me in such ways that left deep scars that will never go away. These betrayals involved lying, breaking promises, breaking vows/covenants, leaving the faith/church, disobeying tenants of the faith and sinning against God and breaking clear Biblical tenants, church splits and behavior that would make unbelievers blush.

Modern Christianity kind of paints a picture that once you are surrounded by other Christians, things will be OK and that they will always love and honor God. That is completely false and this dark side is not discussed because it would turn off those "seekers" or unbelievers as they would clearly see hypocrisy. If the saved Christian church is no different than the unsaved sector of society, then it offers nothing different than secular society.

If we are honest, then we should put out a disclaimer in the churches. Something like this should be in the doctrinal statement after all the major tenants of the faith are posted:

Having stated the above doctrinal positions, we want to clearly state that there are times when true believers and followers of the Christian faith will do things that will grieve and shock you, sin and dishonor God, His Word and even hurt other Christians in that process. This is part of the free will that God gives believers. Even though they are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, believers will at times hurt you and sin against you and God. These incidents will really hurt you and rock you to the core as one believes that a Christian shouldn't act that way, which they shouldn't, but can and will act that way. Pastors will sin, wives & husbands will deceive & sin, brothers and sisters in Christ will lie, dishonor, sin and hurt you.

It is important to understand this facet of the Christian faith. To enter into the Christian faith thinking that other Christians can't or will not do such things is only setting up yourself for disappointment and shock. That might, in effect, make your faith stumble. So it is best that we as a church make this disclaimer that Christians can and will do these things. It is a sad but factual truth of the human being, even when indwelt with the Holy Spirit, that they will do these things. So it is best to be prepared when those incidents occur that it is not the Christian faith that failed, but that person who failed. They failed to follow God and His Word. Christians will disappoint you, sin against you and hurt you, please be prepared that this can and most likely will occur in your lifelong journey as a Christian.

 

Desert, you have a GREAT post. Thank you.

" it offers nothing different than secular society. " What is the Church of God?

This is a global international organisation, if you will, which consists of sons of God and kings and priests. They are heirs of God and God called them: GODS too.  God commanded them to be like His Son Jesus. They are like Him! They suffer and die in tortures being martyrs. They do what their God Jesus did: they LOVE people and their ENEMIES. There is nothing better than to be with them..surrounded by them...but they are a SMALL Remnant..It is HARD to find them on our planet!!! Our churches are full of tares...but the wheat still EXISTS. Be like them looking at their Commander who is the HEAD of the Church of God - Jesus- and transform yourself in a godly and holy life to be like Him and to act like Him.

Edited December 27, 2017 by mven222

[DesertSW]

I wonder how many times the OSAS deniers will lose and gain their salvation within their lifetimes? Maybe 100? Just don't die on the day when you lost it. Typical Roman Catholic nonsense.  I don't even want to go there on the OSAS vs temporal security. That has been debated ad nauseam by millions of pastors, authors and theologians. I don't have the time or will to debate that on a website forum.

Well, the fact is that I was betrayed by 10 close Christian friends, family members and even a spouse. The fact is that churches don't talk about these very real potentials. The fact is that it is a reality and a dark side to Christianity. Once again, it is NOT the faith that is at fault but the people within it.

The Apostle Paul was betrayed by the Apostle Peter, Demas and other apostles and ministry people. So I guess it shouldn't be a surprise that it will happen to Christians today. Paul writes in 2 Tim 4:9-11

Do your best to come to me quickly, ¹⁰for Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone to Galatia, and Titus to Dalmatia. ¹¹Only Luke is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you, because he is helpful to me in my ministry.

I guess the best practice is to trust certain Christian people but even then, they can't be fully 100% trusted, as there is the potential for deceit and betrayal. Maybe just get a dog?

Edited December 27, 2017 by DesertSW

[Equippers]

i also do not agree with the whole idea that anyone who behave badly is not a real born again Christian

i personally think anyone who have enough experience at church knows that

but this is just mine take.

[Omegaman 3.0]

Well, my point equippers, is that people who have been changed by God, act like they have been changed.

as One extreme example, Saul of Tarsus / versus Paul the apostle. Peter the coward who denied his Lord, and Peter who later preach boldy and was willing to die, for his friend no longer physically present.

I can speak to changes in my own life, not on the same scale, but certainly very real. As you said, that is just your take. My take is different, and my experiences have also be. I have been affiliated with 7 churches in the last almost 40 years, and have never been mistreated in any way that I know of.

A person can claim to be a car. They can even sleep in a garage. However, if a person does not roll on there tires and high speeds, I am inclined to think they are a car in name only, nor a genuine car.

Similarly, I think the genuine Christian, has the characteristic of genuine Christians. The are known by thier obedience to their Lord, and their love for one another, there selfless acts of charity, preaching the gospel to a lost world etc. Either Jesus is right, and we know them by thier fruits, or He was wrong.

He destribed tares, those who look like Christians, but are counterfiets. I am persuaded that it is entirely possible, that the tares outnumber the wheat, in many churches, perhaps  even most. It is quite possible, that in our churches, there are many that fit what Jesus said below:

21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

but this is just my take

[Equippers]

8 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

 

I can speak to changes in my own life, not on the same scale, but certainly very real. As you said, that is just your take. My take is different, and my experiences have also be. I have been affiliated with 7 churches in the last almost 40 years, and have never been mistreated in ay way that I know of.

 

i am not you, since i do not know the specific context to your situation. but since you say this has been your personal experience, then i believe you

however, i have been in church for a long time, i have seen plenty of nasty behaviors between genuine born again believers.

 

anyway, when one type in the key words "hurt by other Christians"

there are plenty of results come up to help genuine Christians to deal with hurt by other genuine Christians

so i don't think i am alone in struggling with this issue.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Equippers