WHAT IS THE FALLING AWAY

[Steve_S]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The gathering or rapture is indeed the theme of this passage, and the very reason they wrote to Paul. Paul had taught them that the rapture will come before  the Day of the Lord, and then someone came along and told them that they were IN the Day of the Lord. Of course they were upset: I would be too. 

Paul's answer is to explain to them how to know for SURE when one would be IN the day of the Lord: if they see the man of sin enter the temple and be revealed as the Beast, then all will know the DAY has started.

This is sheer guess work, basically.

2Th 2:1  Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 
2Th 2:2  not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 

It implies that they thought the day of Christ may have come. It does not expound upon that at all. Anyone can make an assumption that paul is talking about a pretrib rapture, but the bible does not say that paul is talking about a pretrib rapture.

 

[iamlamad]

3 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

This is sheer guess work, basically.

2Th 2:1  Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 
2Th 2:2  not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 

It implies that they thought the day of Christ may have come. It does not expound upon that at all. Anyone can make an assumption that paul is talking about a pretrib rapture, but the bible does not say that paul is talking about a pretrib rapture.

 

Suppose Paul had taught them that the rapture would come at the end of the 70th week, and then someone told them they were half way through: would they be upset? NO! They would then know they only had to hold on for another 3 1/2 years.

Yet, they WERE upset - upset enough to write to Paul. A postrib teaching by Paul would not explain that. 

One day you will have to come to grips with the fact that in 3b the man of sin IS revealed, so the one restraining has to be "taken out of the way" in 3a. Otherwise, throw verses 6-8 out of your bible.

So if you don't think the restrainer being removed is found in "apostasia" show us where else in 3a anything has departed or been removed. This is not "guess work." It is using logic with what we are given. Words have to mean something. 

[iamlamad]

54 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

Edited: just noticed "making God's decisions for Him"  we never do that.

Jesus says MY sheep know MY VOICE and follow ME.

That is what we do, according to Jesus.   We (like sheep) have peace as long as we hear HIS VOICE and follow HIM.  If we go play with wolves,   haha.... well,  HE SENDS US OUT as sheep in the midst of ravenous wolves, doesn't HE?  (as HE SAYS).  but not to tempt God.  As His Witnesses, in the testimony of JESUS everywhere we go,  every day, all the time.

We don't make God's decisions ever.  We listen always, and DO as HE SAYS.  All the time:  "IN UNION with JESUS" living daily with HIM.

...

Now this I can agree with!

[Unfailing Presence]

12 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Matthew 13:18 “Hear then the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. 20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.  22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. 23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”

So already being hell doomed what are they " falling away " to ?

[Steve_S]

1 minute ago, iamlamad said:

Suppose Paul had taught them that the rapture would come at the end of the 70th week, and then someone told them they were half way through: would they be upset? NO! They would then know they only had to hold on for another 3 1/2 years.

Yet, they WERE upset - upset enough to write to Paul. A postrib teaching by Paul would not explain that. 

One day you will have to come to grips with the fact that in 3b the man of sin IS revealed, so the one restraining has to be "taken out of the way" in 3a. Otherwise, throw verses 6-8 out of your bible.

So if you don't think the restrainer being removed is found in "apostasia" show us where else in 3a anything has departed or been removed. This is not "guess work." It is using logic with what we are given. Words have to mean something. 

It is absolutely guess work. It's based on other premises that also have no direct correlative evidence. You are making a positive claim that this is definitive and it is not. A definitive statement would look like "as though the pretrib rapture had occurred." I'm not asking you not to believe what you believe, simply saying that what you believe is not specifically delineated in the text.

[Unfailing Presence]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I heard one preacher say, "where will I scare them off to? Hell number 2, or hell number 3?"

There is only one hell, and unsaved people are already on their way there. I think I disagree with you here. Why can't someone that was once "on fire" for God grow cold, quit attending church, quit praying, and quit reading His word? And if they did this, would they not have fallen away from being close to God? (However, I don't think Paul's intent was a significant falling away; I think it was a significant departing of the saints as in the rapture.)

I agree it seems Paul's words indicate something much more dramatic & sudden , urgent  happening than believers becoming bored & lazy . 

[OneLight]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The scripture is really silent about this issue except for Paul's one verse, that does not seem to include babies. I believe God is wise enough to figure out how to get babies who have no capacity to repent into heaven. 

Absolutely.   Maybe I missed something in the long thread, but I believe every aborted child will be with the Lord.

[simplejeff]

28 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Absolutely.   Maybe I missed something in the long thread, but I believe every aborted child will be with the Lord.

The question has been debated for hundreds of years,  because that is not stated anywhere in Scripture.  And going by 'feelings' or 'emotions' is not reliable nor a good test. 

[Sister]

3 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

So already being hell doomed what are they " falling away " to ?

Perdition.

[OneLight]

5 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

The question has been debated for hundreds of years,  because that is not stated anywhere in Scripture.  And going by 'feelings' or 'emotions' is not reliable nor a good test. 

Personally, I believe God to be a God of Mercy to those who cannot be held accountable.  If He is merciful enough to forgive me, who willingly sinned, how much more will He be merciful to those who never had the opportunity to ever commit a sin?