Prophecy ... Different Views Shouldn't Turn into Slanderous Accusations

[WilliamL]

On 6/15/2018 at 5:50 AM, George said:

Your end times position -- is not a salvational issue -- and if GREAT MEN of God who still have FRUIT that remains today had various end times positions, it shouldn't' startle us if we at Worthy Christian Forums have various views of the last days!

On 6/15/2018 at 5:23 AM, George said:

Over my life, I've been very blessed by Oswald Smith.  He wrote such books as The Revivial We Need and The Enduement of Power.   During his lifetime, he changed his position on the end times. 

Speaking of someone who changed his position on the End Times:

1 Pet. 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand/has drawn near; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.

2 Pet. 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Most of the New Testament writers believed and wrote that the Lord was coming in their day. Near the end of his life, Peter came to understand that was not to happen.

[iamlamad]

On 6/16/2018 at 10:13 PM, Daniel 11:36 said:

The pre-tribulation rapture was first taught by Paul .... a Mystery he said .... and the truth

What others say different from Paul are obviously wrong

Hallelujah! May the TRUTH win out.

[iamlamad]

George, 

Thanks for starting in brotherly love! It was good, but I think it was wrong. I believe Paul started the pretrib idea.

Why so many don't believe it amazes me. What also amazes me is that many resort to anything but love in their posts. I really do believe that Paul is clear in what He wrote: he tells us of the rapture in 1 thes. 4, but gives us the timing of his rapture in chapter 5. And what is that timing? 

Please allow me a brief synopsis of what Paul wrote:

A "suddenly" is coming - a sudden event with no warning. It will be the dead in Christ suddenly flying up out of their graves. 

Then, an instant later, two groups of people get two different results:

Those living in Christ will get raptured and get to "live together with Him" or "so shall we ever be with the Lord." 

Those living in darkness get Paul's "sudden destruction." Then Paul shows us that this sudden destruction will be God's wrath beginning. God will not set any appointments for us with His wrath, but rather will pull us out before His wrath. Then Paul hints very strongly that the moment of His wrath in the sudden destruction will also be the start of the Day of the Lord. It seems Paul puts the Day of the Lord back to back with the rapture so that they cannot be separated. In short, Paul shows us His coming (in the clouds) will trigger the dead in Christ rising, then the dead in Christ rising will trigger the start of the Day of the Lord. 

If we example Matthew 27 we read, "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened." I think we see a precedent here: when God raises the dead, it will cause an earthquake. Here in Matthew 27 I believe God raised the elders of the Old Covenant: perhaps 24 of them; perhaps more.  However, when God brings together the particles that once made up their body, these particles could be scatter for a  miles in all directions - or hundreds of miles for those before the flood. It will be the very same for the dead in Christ: they will be found around the world, so when God brings those bodies together in a moment of time, that event will cause a world wide earthquake. I believe Paul gives us enough information that we can be sure his rapture will come a moment before the 6th seal event in Revelation.

Then, when we examine the 5th seal, that is for the martyrs of the church age. In short they are told that God is waiting for the full number - or the final martyr  - of the church age. In short They are told they must wait for the rapture to end the church age, so that the final martyr will come in. You see, the very next martyr will be of a different group: a 70th week martyr. As I see it, the church has been waiting now almost 2000 years for the rapture and the 6th seal which will usher in the Day of the Lord and the 70th week of Daniel. 

I hear people screaming: NO! The 70th week begins with the FIRST seal. One can come to that conclusion ONLY if they pull the first seal out of its context. Turn back to chapter 5 and you will find that John saw the very moment Jesus ascended, and sent the Holy Spirit down - so circa 32 AD or around there. That is the context for the first seal. That seal is to represent the Church sent out with the Gospel. Seals 2 -4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel - but God limited them to 1/4 the earth. we can be sure that 1/4 is centered on Jerusalem where the Gospel began. 

Where then does the 70th week or "trib" start? I am convinced it will begin with the 7th seal. I believe God "marked" the 70th week wih 7's: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends the week. 

Therefore I am convinced Paul was pretrib and wrote pretrib.

My point in writing though, before I got carried away, was this: it seems that Jesus will be coming pretrib for those EXPECTING Him. 

Hebrews 9:²⁸ So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

Notice, "to them that look for Him will He appear. This cannot be His coming as shown in Rev. 19 where "every eye will see Him." 

and it seems that the only people that WILL see Him are those that are expecting Him. 

I believe therefore that Satan is making a HUGE push in these last days to get people to believe in a post trib rapture, for he thinks they will be left behind (so do I think this) and he probably thinks he can convince many of them to take the mark. 

Therefore, I believe this really could become a salvation issue.  I think we should all be expecting Him any day!

[WilliamL]

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I believe God raised the elders of the Old Covenant: perhaps 24 of them; perhaps more. ...

... Turn back to chapter 5 and you will find that John saw the very moment Jesus ascended, and sent the Holy Spirit down - so circa 32 AD or around there. That is the context for the first seal.

Matt. 27:51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

1 Peter 4:6 ...the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

John 5:25 “Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live."

The 24 elders rose from the dead shortly after Jesus did, probably on Nisan 21. The above verses tell the whys and wherefores.

In Rev. 5, we see them already in heaven when the slain Lamb appears and comes before the throne. Therefore, this cannot be "the very moment Jesus ascended," as you claim. Rather, this is End Times, so the First Seal which follows this event must therefore be End Times.

According to the types and shadows of the Day of Atonement, described in Lev. 16, the High Priest comes before YHWH twice: once for himself and the priesthood, and a second time for the people. When Jesus ascended to the Father on the day of his resurrection from the dead, that was "for himself" --

Heb. 9:12 ...with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once, having obtained [for] himself [Greek aorist participle, middle voice] eternal redemption.

Heb. 9:28 To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear out [Gr. ek] a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Under the Law, the blood had to be offered before the Throne twice. Rev. 5:6's "stood a Lamb as though it had been slain" is that second time. Our time. All of the Seals await Jesus' second time before the throne with the Blood of Atonement.

 

Edited September 20, 2018 by WilliamL

[iamlamad]

55 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Matt. 27:51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

1 Peter 4:6 ...the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

John 5:25 “Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live."

The 24 elders rose from the dead shortly after Jesus did, probably on Nisan 21. The above verses tell the whys and wherefores.

In Rev. 5, we see them already in heaven when the slain Lamb appears and comes before the throne. Therefore, this cannot be "the very moment Jesus ascended," as you claim. Rather, this is End Times, so the First Seal which follows this event must therefore be End Times.

According to the types and shadows of the Day of Atonement, described in Lev. 16, the High Priest comes before YHWH twice: once for himself and the priesthood, and a second time for the people. When Jesus ascended to the Father on the day of his resurrection from the dead, that was "for himself" --

Heb. 9:12 ...with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once, having obtained [for] himself [Greek aorist participle, middle voice] eternal redemption.

Heb. 9:28 To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear out [Gr. ek] a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Under the Law, the blood had to be offered before the Throne twice. Rev. 5:6's "stood a Lamb as though it had been slain" is that second time. Our time. All of the Seals await Jesus' second time before the throne with the Blood of Atonement.

 

Your calculating is in error.  Jesus rose from the dead, somewhere around 32 AD. It seems then that the elders were raised in 32 AD also.  

Some moment in time, around 32 AD,  Jesus rises, raises the elders, then within hours ascends, and John, looking back in time saw that moment Jesus entered the throne room. Jesus could have waited for a few hours. Perhaps He arose at midnight, at the exact moment between one day and another. Then was waiting for the women to arrive. But by this time the elders could  have already arrived in heaven.  Some may have stayed behind for a few minutes and were seen by people.  I see no problem with this scenario. 

Since you doubt, I will ask you the same three questions Jesus asked me about this passage.

Why did John not see me the moment he looked into the throne room  in chapter 4? there are a dozen verses saying that that is where I should be. Stephen SAW me there. 

Why was "no man found" in that first search John watched - the search that ended in failure? If you read ahead, you will find I was found worthy. Why then was I not found in the first search John watched?

If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was there in the throne room, yet, I said that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why then was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room? 

Good luck!  I studied for weeks trying to answer His questions. I also was trying to find "timing" and "the movement of time" which He had previously spoken to me. 

You will find (eventually) that Jesus ascended as soon as He finished with Mary and sent her away. Then He ascended and John got to see Him as soon as He entered the throne room.

Edited September 20, 2018 by iamlamad

[OldCoot]

Of course, anything we say regarding the 24 Elders is speculation, but some speculations have more scriptural support.  For instance, King David divided the priesthood into 24 divisions or courses in 1 Chronicles 24.  Obviously, there were more than 24 priests in Israel.  Same thing for the musicians.  They also were divided into 24 divisions. There were 288 musicians when David did this.

Yeshua is King in the authority of King David, being of the lineage of David.  Gabriel confirms this to Mary.

Peter stated that those he was writing to, the Church, that we are a royal priesthood. That is not said of any other redeemed group such as the OT saints.  Nor is it said of the tribulation saints.

So when we take just those particular scripture references in view, it is more substantive that the 24 Elders are the redeemed from the time of the church's beginning at Pentecost until its removal prior to the final tribulation period.

I see the OT saints of Matthew 27 as being the first fruits of the harvest that Yeshua, being our High Priest, took to the Father in accordance with Leviticus 23.  He is the first fruits of those that are resurrected, but He is not part of the harvest.  He told Mary at the tomb area not to handle or touch Him, as He had not yet ascended to the Father.  As our High Priest, He would need to remain ceremonially pure to take the first fruits of the harvest to the Father.  

Other than that, there is no scriptural support for what happened to those resurrected OT saints.  Many early church writers who either knew the Apostles or students of them state that these saints were indeed taken to the Father by Yeshua, but none of them even hint that they are considered the 24 Elders.

Edited September 22, 2018 by OldCoot

[Scott Free]

17 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said:

WORTHY'S LAMPSTAND HAS BEEN REMOVED.

Relax Sojourner414, proper interpretation of these matters is not a condition of salvation in Jesus Christ. 

Edited September 22, 2018 by Scott Free

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

If you noticed in chat, there have been many times a discussion of the Tribulation has met with mockery by others in there (some of them moderators) and you set the tone for this board, George.

And yes: this ministry can be removed when it strays from what the Lord intended.

As for "trying to silence me": you keep insisting that posts be cut ever shorter, until they are practically one sentence posts that are on the reading level of a three year old. We've had that discussion more than once in chat.

How can people learn God's truth when they cannot even read more than a few words at a time, because their attention span has been effectively lobotomized? We do them NO FAVORS by feeding this trend.

A time of repentance was allowed, but that time has passed. I thought you were turning the board away from its' errant course, but I see now that is no longer the case.

WORTHY'S LAMPSTAND HAS BEEN REMOVED.

Shabbat shalom, Sojourner414.

Excuse me, but can you show me the verse that gives YOU the authority to remove an organization's "lampstand?"

As far as reducing one's post to the "level of a three-year old," it's not a bad idea. "Out of the mouths of babes ... ."

As far as when the Lord Messiah Yeshua` comes before/within/after the Tribulation, have you noticed that one's position is determined by how one defines the "Tribulation?" Perhaps, since movement to or away from a point is described by either the movement of the observer or the movement of the point (or the movement of both), then perhaps the Time when the Messiah comes back will be based more on where you place the Tribulation than when the Lord comes.

And, there are MANY assumptions that are made by any camp to which one belongs. For instance, why does the "Tribulation" have to be 7 years long? Why is the "Tribulation" so often associated with the 70th Week of Daniel when there's no Scriptural proof for such an association? Where's the Scripture verses that prove that? That's the most FUNDAMENTAL assumption that is made about the "Tribulation" on which those who hold pretrib, midtrib ("pre-wrath"), partial trib, or posttrib have hung their belief-systems.

The problem, as I see it, is making a simple noun into a LABEL for something. What IS a "tribulation" anyway? Can there be more than one of them? How long can they be? When one realizes that the word "tribulation" is a translation of the Greek word "thlipsis" and that this one Greek word was translated in the KJV as "tribulation," "afflicted," "affliction," "anguish," "burdened," "persecution," and "trouble," then perhaps we should be looking at the verses containing these words, as well, before coming to any rash, sudden conclusions.

I have no intention of "silencing you" (not that I could), but I do feel that you need to take your emotions down a notch. We're family here, and we're trying to work through these questions together. We should be in an attitude of cooperation, not of competition or controversy. If we come to the point when we are at loggerheads, then we need simply and gently (gentlemanly) to agree to disagree. State your points clearly and with Scripture to back up what you say, and I'll have no problem with what you say or how you say it.

There are some groups that are under such urgency, that they don't think they have the time to analyze a position. They just need to latch onto that position which they've been taught, and go full steam ahead!

But, if "each one wins one a year," did you know that we could evangelize the whole world in much less than a single lifetime?

Remember the story about the inventor of chess? It's mostly just a legend now, but the story goes that the ruler of his country so loved the game that he gave its inventor the right to choose how he would be paid for it. He said simply to have all the wheat that one would get if one placed a single grain of wheat on the first square of the chessboard and double that number for each successive square on the board. So, the ruler agreed and the doubling began:

1+2+4+8+16+32+64+128+256 (first row)+
512+1024+2048+4096+8192+16,384+32,768+65,536 (second row, only six more rows to go)+
131,072+262,144+524,288 (over a bushel of wheat now)+... .

It wasn't long before the ruler discovered that all the granaries and coffers of the kingdom couldn't supply the wheat the man had asked for! Instead, so the legend goes, the inventor was beheaded for his impudence!

The same is true for evangelization, and we're not starting with just one individual, but if "each one won one a year," we would be doubling our numbers each year! And that is not even taking into consideration the power of the Holy Spirit of God, or the fact that we can certainly win more than one person a year! Just consider the Billy Graham crusades, for instance!

So, urgency is not a valid excuse for laziness in making sure we're teaching others the right things. Let's all work together on these topics.

[Last Daze]

58 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Excuse me, but can you show me the verse that gives YOU the authority to remove an organization's "lampstand?"

Exactly that.  And if he truly believes it, why is he still around?

[JoeCanada]

10 hours ago, Abdicate said:

More scripture showing the order which happens per the calendar, the date, the order, are sequential. They cannot be out of order. The Feast of Trumpets contains an event where trumpets are blown 100 times with the last one having a name BY THE JEWS called Tekiah haGadolah. The trumpet wasn’t the brass ones you see today, but a ram’s horn. Four distinct sounds, or calls, were made with it. The first one is called Tekiah, the Blast, and means Awake and to Praise God with the Tekiah, Number 10:3. The next one is called the Shevarim, three blasts, meaning Broken, as in True Repentance, Broken before God, Numbers 10:5. The third one is called Teruah and means Alarm, Numbers 10:9. The sound is intended to alert the hearer to danger or an event. The fourth sound is called the Tekiah haGadolah and means the Great Blast, and is to be blown until out of breath, the long blast, Exodus 19:16, 19. You can hear them here abdicate.net/shofar.mp4 . The shofar is blow 100 times. The three sounds are blown and repeated 3 times making a series of 9 blasts. This is repeated 11 times, making 99 and the end, the Great Blast, is also known as the Last Trump! The last trump is Rosh haShana, the First Trump is known as Pentecost, Great Trump is the Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) because it is when the Year of Jubilee is declared.

1 Tishri has many names:

• Rosh haShanna – Head of the Year
• Yom Teruah – Day of Blowing
• Yom haDin – the Day of Judgment
• Yom haKeseh – the Hidden Day
• Yom haKiddushin – Wedding Day
• Yom haMelech – Day of the King
• Yom Ziccaron Teruah – Day of Remembrance Blast
• Opening of the Books
• Opening of the Gates
• Day of the Awakening Blast
• Feast of Trumpets

 

 

 

Hi Abdicate....

This is brilliant. Loved it. Lays it out brilliantly. Well done.

(I have a shofar, but my blowing  does not sound like the blowing of the shofar at abdicate.net/shofar.mp4) ☹️