At the rapture "the dead in Christ rise first" 1 Thess 4 ... at the "first resurrection" Rev 20:4-5 which is part of the Rev 19-Rev 20:5 second coming event -- When Christ "comes again" to take all the saints to heaven "to My Father's house" as in John 14:1-3
It is after the tribulation.
How about Matt 24?
20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. ...
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
It is just ONE event - the second coming:
John 14:1 “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
Christ does not say "I will come again... and again... and again..."
It is sudden and surprising
Matt 24 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
1 Thess 5: . 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
2 Thess 1: 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction
Matthew 24 "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect"
It is at the John 14:1-3 "second coming" where "I will come again and RECEIVE you to Myself that WHERE I am there you may be also".
Thus the "Dead in Christ rise FIRST" 1 Thess 4 at the "FIRST resurrection" Rev 20:4-5 that occurs at the second coming described in Matthew 24, and John 14:1-3 and Rev 19-20:5
One Bible detail that helps us keep all this straight is to remember that all Bible timelines are contiguous units themselves. So the 70 years of Jeremiah discussed by Daniel in Dan 9:1-6 are all "contiguous years" back-to-back. No inserting "gaps of undefined time length" into the middle of the contiguous 70 year timeline. All bible timelines work that way - including the 70 week (490 year) timeline.
My Post trib position (and the Bible post-trib) is also post-wrath rapture (i.e --2nd coming) -- is clear in this text.
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect" Matt 24
1 Thess 4 "the dead in Christ rise FIRST"
Rev 21 "This is the FIRST resurrection..blessed and holy is he who has part in the FIRST resurrection over THESE the second death has no power"
Rev 19 is the 2nd coming - rapture and resurrection of the saints. It is after the 7 last plagues wrath of Rev 16.
Keys to Bible prophecy
A. All Bible timelines are contiguous -- just like Daniel 9:1-7 points out - with the 70 years of Jeremiah.
B. All apocalyptic timelines use day-for-year symbolism just like the Daniel 9 seventy week (490 day) prophecy of Daniel. .So also the 2300 days of Daniel 8, and 1260 days of Daniel 7, and Rev 11, 12,13
C. Later writers use the symbols employed by earlier writers - assuming that the reader is already informed about symbols previously explained.
There is another thread on the post-trib position but I failed to notice that it is pre-wrath. So I think I mistakenly posted thinking it was "post-trib and or post-wrath" when it was post-trib and also pre-wrath on that other thread. Which is not my view.
By Guest Omegaman
The debate continues, and I suppose it will until/if the church finds itself recognizing that the antichrist/man of sin/beast/son of perdition/abomination that cuases desolation/etc. has been revealed and recognized.
So, here is what I am asking, this is the question that this thread is about:
Where in the bible is it stated, or which combination of verses do you believe imply (evidentially, not wishfully) that there is either:
a secret coming of Jesus for the church before the great tribulation an invisible coming of Jesus for the church a two part second advent a scriptural distinction of Jesus coming for His church, versus His coming with His church From my perspective, in case it is not obvious, the only thing invisible about Jesus coming, is that it is that the pre-trib rapture is invisible in the sense that it is no where to be found in scripture.
Some of you disagree, what I am asking then, is for the biblical basis, the scriptural evidence, for one or more of the bulleted points (•) above. Some of you are so sure that Jesus will return before the great tribulation, that certainly you must have biblical evident of the truth or likelyhood, of the pre-trib return of Christ.
To those who want to reply in this thread:
Please stick to the premise of it, scriptural evidence for a coming of Jesus to catch up His church to be with Him prior to the great tribulation.
I know that I am asking a lot of people to stay on topic. I understand that people are passionate about their eschatological beliefs. However, please exercise some self control and not start in with a statement of or defense of your own, other than pre-trib persuasion.
Let's let this thread be limited to actual scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture.
Opposing viewpoints are o.k., but limit those to just enough to present an answer to any posts claiming to present scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture, without making it about what you believe instead.
To those taking up the challenge presented here, please note that I have gone to great lengths to be specific in limiting the type of posts appropriate to this thread. For example:
Stating that "the rapture is Jesus coming for His church before the trib" is a definition of your belief, and is not scriptural evidence, such a statement is just an opinion, and is evidence that you believe, not for your belief. Stating things like "the church is not mentioned after verse such and such in Revelation", is also not evidence, it is merely an argument from silence. Stating that "the church is not destined to suffer God's wrath" is also not evidence, unless you can prove that the whole to the great tribulation is in fact the wrath of God, and that if the church is present for that, that she cannot and will not be protected from God's wrath during the great tribulation Hopefully, examples like those above, will convey the idea of what I am seeking, and that you can understand the nature of evidence as opposed to statements of faith in your doctrine. The idea here, is to present some quality reasons to believe in the pre-trib rapture. So here you have an opportunity. Please, give it a shot if you think that you have scriptural evidence.
Thanks in advance
In the topic of eschatology, few things are debated with more passion than the timing of the rapture with respect to the great tribulation. In online forums there are many opinions expressed. Some of them in my opinion are so far out there that few people if any take them very seriously.
Some people read these topics and will express their opinion that the topics are not important. Somehow though, they seem to think it important to express their opinion that it isn't important. I have not quite figured that one out yet.
One of the opinions often expressed is the tongue-in-cheek position:" I am pan tribulation". At the risk of possibly offending those people who say they are pan tribulation, I say this: "The pan-trib position is supposed to be cute or humorous, and I suppose it is the first time one hears it. By now though I am sure that I have heard it over 100 times, and to me it has become a worn-out old joke. I have been hearing it since the 1970s, so pardon me if I don't laugh too hard.
Still there are those who are reading this post who have no doubt not heard of the pan-trib position even now. For their sakes I will explain the pan-trib position. "I do not care if the rapture is before, during, or after the tribulation, as long as it all pans out".
I have very little respect for the pan-trib position. I suspect that people who hold that position fall into one of several categories: Perhaps they are too lazy to study the Bible. Perhaps they feel they are underqualified to have a real opinion. Perhaps they detest debate. Perhaps they are afraid to express their opinion.
Sometimes they will make the point that eschatology is not a salvational issue and therefore is not worth having a strong opinion about. It often seems to escape their notice though, that almost all of the Bible is not about salvational issues, so I would have to guess that most of the Bible is also not important to them.
Considering how much space (in the New Testament especially) is devoted to eschatology by the apostles and even by Jesus Himself I find it extremely difficult and even disrespectful to imply that the things that Jesus said and that the apostles (who were inspired by God to write) expressed, are of little importance.
Coming up with flippant, worn-out remarks does not in my mind, justify what seems to be an aire of superiority in being wishy-washy about Scripture.
I know I am on my high horse. I know I am often on my high horse. I know that I am on my high horse frequently lately. You can reply to this post and inform me of that if you wish, but don't think you're telling me anything that I do not already know and freely admit.
As I have already stated there are many opinions and many positions in the field of eschatology. The different positions contradict each other of course and most of them (if not all of them) contradict Scripture at at least one point. No more than one position can be 100% accurate and perhaps none of them are. In spite of the fact that I have used a lot of words so far in this post, I really only want to invite comments on the following proposition: There are many reasons that people may use to explain why they believe what they believe about eschatology. With respect to the issue of whether or not the rapture is before, during, or after the great tribulation, I believe the following reasons should be discounted. The character of God argument. Some people believe that the church will not go through the great tribulation because it is not within the character of God to allow his church to suffer. This reasoning is invalid because God's people have always been allowed to suffer historically. This is true whether we are talking about the Jews or the Christians, prophets or apostles, martyrs since the time of Christ and even today, and of course Jesus himself who said a servant is not above his master. If God has allowed his people to suffer for thousands of years, how can we think that it is not in God's character to allow such suffering? Wishful thinking. It is so easy for us in the West to find the idea of suffering distasteful. Many of us have never missed a meal even one time in our entire life nor slept without a roof over our head unless it was by choice. We live in a time and in cultures where most people have access to transportation which requires no physical work, access to nearly continual entertainment and access to vast amounts of knowledge that we never had to study to obtain. I read just today that Google claims that the average Android user checks his or her Android 150 times each day. In these days of comfort and convenience, fast food and instant gratification, it is no wonder that some of us cannot conceive of going through a time of suffering and persecution lasting from 3-1/2 to 7 years. However, just because we have had it so easy does not mean there won't be a time when we will have it so hard. I have gone on long enough. I intended to list a lot of reasons which are not valid reasons for believing some of the things that we do believe. It seems to me that in the area of eschatology the only reason to believe anything is because the Bible tells us so. I am sure that many of us believe we believe what the Bible says about these things. It is my observation however that many of us if not most of us believe what we believe by taking preconceived ideas to the Scripture and then interpreting the Scripture in a way that agrees with what we already believe about it, rather than taking Scripture at its word and adjusting our thinking to align with what the Bible itself says. Do we really want to be a people who gather to themselves teachers who will tell us what our itching ears want to hear? Or do we think that the better idea is to be like the Bereans, and search the Scriptures daily to see whether these things be so?