Rapture means the wise virgins taken to the feast alive, tribulation means foolish virgins left and yell.

[iamlamad]

38 minutes ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

I believe there needs to be a distinction between the rapture and the ("first") resurrection mentioned at the end of the tribulation. The rapture involves a snatching away INTO heaven of the dead first, then those who are alive. When 'resurrection' is mentioned (like the one at the end of the tribulation) people are raised BUT REMAIN ON EARTH. The resurrection at the 2nd coming only involves those who HAVE already died (as mentioned in Revelation - those who HAVE GOTTEN victory of the Beast and the mark of the Beast).

I disagree, I think Jesus was the very first to partake of the "first" or chief resurrection (for the saved), then the church will be the second wave, the 144,000 the third wave, the martyred saints and the Old Testament saints on the third wave.

[R. Hartono]

8 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Sounds like you are now saying the "rapture" is at or near the end of the tribulation (at the 2nd coming)?

These 5th seal martyrs can just as easily point to the millions of Christians who have been martyred DURING the Church Age. It makes much more sense that they would be impatient after 2000 years instead of just 2 or 3 (or 5 or 6).

Those died in church age will be resurrected and raptured with the living saints (the great multitude)

1 Cor 15:52 : In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we will be changed.

Those died in tribulation (foolish virgins) shall appear below the altar (5th seal).

 

Edited March 12, 2019 by R. Hartono

[Montana Marv]

4 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Those died in church age will be resurrected and raptured with the living saints (the great multitude)

1 Cor 15:52 : In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we will be changed.

Those died in tribulation (foolish virgins) shall appear below the altar (5th seal).

 

Remember Jesus said. "I never knew you" to the unwise virgins. So their destiny is the Lake of Fire.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

Remember Jesus said. "I never knew you" to the unwise virgins. So their destiny is the Lake of Fire.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Not exactly an accurate statement.

• But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’  Matthew 25:12

He doesn't say that He never knew them, only that He did not know them at that point in time.  The foolish virgins brought lamps with oil, just not any extra for the long haul.

Last trumpet on the last day.  Endurance.  Perseverance.  Extra oil.  The message is clear.

[Montana Marv]

4 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Not exactly an accurate statement.

• But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’  Matthew 25:12

He doesn't say that He never knew them, only that He did not know them at that point in time.  The foolish virgins brought lamps with oil, just not any extra for the long haul.

Last trumpet on the last day.  Endurance.  Perseverance.  Extra oil.  The message is clear.

The Truth is in the preceding Matt 24:45-51 - the unfaithful servant will be placed with the hypocrites where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.  And the following narrative in Matt 25:14-30 - The one who did nothing with his talent went into darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.  Both of these were not ready when the Master/Owner came.  The same with the unwise virgins, not ready.

So the five worthless virgins Jesus did not know.  He knows the outcome of the unfaithful servant and He knows the outcome of the one who did nothing with his talent.  And yet He knows the outcome of these unwise virgins also.  They missed the boat.  They all missed the boat.  Kind of like Noah and the Ark, those who missed the boat did not live.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[R. Hartono]

7 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

 He knows the outcome of these unwise virgins also.  They missed the boat.  They all missed the boat.  Kind of like Noah and the Ark, those who missed the boat did not live.

It wont be as fatal as the flood of Noah where everybody suddenly perish by the inundation within days, the foolish virgins left behind by the rapture may regret and then repent and refuse to worship the beast if they dare so then their souls will be forgiven.

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 10:16 PM, iamlamad said:

On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 9:47 PM, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Sure, marking the 2nd coming they are "standing on the sea of glass (now mingled with fire-judgment)" and about to introduce the bowl judgments. Is it the right time to ask what the "sea of glass" represents?

These martyrs are singing the song of Moses and are described as those who have gotten victory of the beast and over his mark, and over his image, and over the number of his name. These cannot be the pre raptured believers.

Since they were taken to heaven after death, I see no reason why they will not be raised at the "first" resurrection and be a part of those seated on thrones.  Your thoughts?

The "Sea of Glass" - What is it? 

Many speak of different 'levels' of heaven, and without going into all that, the LOWEST level is earth itself. Seeing it that way, this sea of glass is first described as being "clear as crystal", then it is described as being "like fire". I can only conclude this means the "fire" refers to the tribulation period OR the time of the bowl judgments AFTER the 2nd coming. Of course, people will force it into whatever fits their outline, but it does not make much sense that the sea of glass would NOT be as if on fire DURING THE TRIBULATION.

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

On ‎3‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 11:31 AM, Montana Marv said:

Remember Jesus said. "I never knew you" to the unwise virgins. So their destiny is the Lake of Fire.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I believe you have a contradiction by connecting the "lake of fire" (comes into play AFTER the 2nd coming) with the "place of weeping and gnashing of teeth" (ALWAYS assigned in Scripture with the tribulation period BEFORE the 2nd coming). The weeping and gnashing phrase is NEVER tied in with the lake of fire, because they are separate events.

 

Matthew 8:12 ¹²But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

After the rapture - the Jews are brought to jealousy. Luke 13:28 ²⁸"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

Matthew 22:13-14 ¹³"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' ¹⁴"For many are invited, but few are chosen."

Matthew 13:42  and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.Psalm 112:10 The wicked will see it and be vexed, He will gnash his teeth and melt away; The desire of the wicked will perish.

Matt 24:51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 25:30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Lamentations 2:16 All your enemies Have opened their mouths wide against you; They hiss and gnash their teeth They say, "We have swallowed her up! Surely this is the day for which we waited; We have reached it, we have seen it."

Rev 18 The "whore" (left behind believers - or Jews if you prefer) are said to be "weeping" .

Jer. 3:21 A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God.

 Jer 9:10 For the mountains (churches) will I take up a weeping and wailing, and for the habitations of the wilderness(tribulation) a lamentation, because they are burned up (first two trumpets), so that none can pass through them; neither can men hear the voice of the cattle (why not? - because they are gone - rapture); both the fowl of the heavens and the beast are fled(Holy Spirit - white horse, and true Christians); they are gone.

Jer. 48:32 O vine of Sibmah, I will weep for thee with the weeping of Jazer: thy plants are gone over the sea, they reach even to the sea of Jazer: the spoiler (A/C) is fallen upon thy summer fruits and upon thy vintage.

Mal 2:13 And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand.

 

Isa 65:19 (AFTER the 2nd coming) And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Spock]

4 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

I believe you have a contradiction by connecting the "lake of fire" (comes into play AFTER the 2nd coming) with the "place of weeping and gnashing of teeth" (ALWAYS assigned in Scripture with the tribulation period BEFORE the 2nd coming). The weeping and gnashing phrase is NEVER tied in with the lake of fire, because they are separate events.

 

Matthew 8:12 ¹²But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

After the rapture - the Jews are brought to jealousy. Luke 13:28 ²⁸"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

Matthew 22:13-14 ¹³"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' ¹⁴"For many are invited, but few are chosen."

Matthew 13:42  and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.Psalm 112:10 The wicked will see it and be vexed, He will gnash his teeth and melt away; The desire of the wicked will perish.

Matt 24:51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 25:30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Lamentations 2:16 All your enemies Have opened their mouths wide against you; They hiss and gnash their teeth They say, "We have swallowed her up! Surely this is the day for which we waited; We have reached it, we have seen it."

Rev 18 The "whore" (left behind believers - or Jews if you prefer) are said to be "weeping" .

Jer. 3:21 A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God.

 Jer 9:10 For the mountains (churches) will I take up a weeping and wailing, and for the habitations of the wilderness(tribulation) a lamentation, because they are burned up (first two trumpets), so that none can pass through them; neither can men hear the voice of the cattle (why not? - because they are gone - rapture); both the fowl of the heavens and the beast are fled(Holy Spirit - white horse, and true Christians); they are gone.

Jer. 48:32 O vine of Sibmah, I will weep for thee with the weeping of Jazer: thy plants are gone over the sea, they reach even to the sea of Jazer: the spoiler (A/C) is fallen upon thy summer fruits and upon thy vintage.

Mal 2:13 And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand.

 

Isa 65:19 (AFTER the 2nd coming) And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So what is your interpretation or meaning of the phrase “weeping and gnashing of teeth.?” When Jesus says that, what does he mean? Be specific please. 

[iamlamad]

On 3/17/2019 at 1:33 PM, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

The "Sea of Glass" - What is it? 

Many speak of different 'levels' of heaven, and without going into all that, the LOWEST level is earth itself. Seeing it that way, this sea of glass is first described as being "clear as crystal", then it is described as being "like fire". I can only conclude this means the "fire" refers to the tribulation period OR the time of the bowl judgments AFTER the 2nd coming. Of course, people will force it into whatever fits their outline, but it does not make much sense that the sea of glass would NOT be as if on fire DURING THE TRIBULATION.

There are some who have been to the throne room and told about this "sea of Glass." I remember one who said it was made of sapphire, blue in color. She or he, I don't remember, "bit the dust" so to speak, in front of the throne, and got a good, close up look!  Perhaps the fire was a reflection of the glory from the throne. 

Exo. 24  ⁹ Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, ¹⁰ and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very^[heavens in its clarity. 

When I read fire, I think fire.