Daniel 11:40-12:1ff. : What Must Happen First?

[Zemke]

6 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hello Zwmkw

                       Not sure what this means. Are you saying these things were already fulfilled and you are using them for future events too?

I thought from the question you asked it's what you had in mind. Prophecy is prediction and fulfilment but also pattern. Abraham went down and came out of Egypt and so did his descendants and Jesus went down and came out of Egypt and we in type have come out of the world, Egypt is that type of the world in that we were in bondage to the things of this world and are now set free. "Out of Egypt, I have called my son." In context, it's speaking of the Israelites but prophetically it's speaking of Messiah.

It's why I said recapitulation. Something like that even though it was fulfilled in the Greeks, Antiochus and the Maccabees the same spiritual battles are going on in the heavens so like situations having diverse peoples but all leading up to the ultimate second coming.

It's why every generation seems to see biblical events taking place. And why some will say these seals have been opened and this seal is the next. Preterists find events to say these things have all been fulfilled. The difference now is the Jews being back in the land, more Jews all the time believing in Jesus, the natural branches are being grafted back in. The time of the Gentiles is coming to a close. Sixty years ago we couldn't say that. Now there are Jewish congregations in every major city when back then there were not. And Jerusalem becoming more of a central focus as time goes by. "Jerusalem will become a cup of trembling." 

Patterns, Jesus had three and a half years and it would seem the son of perdition will get the same amount of time. 1,260 days, time times and half a time. Elijah stopped the rain for 3.5 years. Well, all these things have something to do with understanding these things. But we always look for some tripwire of timing understanding rather than an intensity of what will be from what has already been. Birth pangs, they get more intense as the delivery approaches but there is relative calm in between. We know the baby is coming but it's the intensity that really says, "Oh ya, this is it." And there is no delay once the birthing starts. Earth tremors work the same way. "Is this the big one?" No, but when the tremors get closer and more intense everyone brasses themselves.

 

[Uriah]

8 minutes ago, Zemke said:

I thought from the question you asked it's what you had in mind. Prophecy is prediction and fulfilment but also pattern.

 

Ok, I see your position, thanks.

 

[R. Hartono]

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Daniel11

Those are events affecting the Jews from the 5th to the 1st centuries BCE (the destruction of Temple ended the Jews era in Judea), then it jump 2000 years to end times not for Daniel's understanding as it ended there.

 

Edited April 14, 2019 by R. Hartono

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

On 4/9/2019 at 3:08 PM, WilliamL said:

So the question is: what changes in the current global political scene do you think must take place first, before the events of 11:40 are likely to occur?

One key thing in all of this is that the AoD was mentioned (for the final and last time in prophecy) way back in verse 31. That covers a LOT of time and suggests that the A/C "moving to Jerusalem" also occurs LATER (or AFTER) the AoD and NOT before.

Many teach that the AoD occurs AFTER the A/C goes to Jerusalem to kick off the supposed 7 year tribulation and even place the AoD in the midpoint of that supposed 7 years?

The A/C ONLY has power for 3.5 years. 

Dan. 11:31

 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

³² And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

³³ And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

³⁴ Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

³⁵ And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

 

Now, "Who are the people in verses 32-35?" The covenant mentioned goes back to verse 22 when the "prince of the covenant" is killed. Following the logical flow of the historical Roman context in these verses, one should be able to see the first century depicted here quite plainly. The cross in verse 22, the AoD in 70ad along with the destruction of the temple. Then, the "Christians" during the "Church Age" up to the "time of the end". Verses 36-39 then are directed at the A/C and/or the "Beast" kingdom. That leaves the "time of the end" from verse 40 onward. The time frame given in Daniel 12 is ONLY 3.5 years.

My thoughts on what must occur FIRST ...

I think the one thing that would trigger the "end" is making Jerusalem the "capital of the World" or something like that. To me, it seems to be the only viable "solution" that would be acceptable by all the different people involved.

[WilliamL]

On 4/14/2019 at 11:55 AM, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

On 4/9/2019 at 1:08 PM, WilliamL said:

So the question is: what changes in the current global political scene do you think must take place first, before the events of 11:40 are likely to occur?

One key thing in all of this is that the AoD was mentioned (for the final and last time in prophecy) way back in verse 31.

Actually, the final mention of the Abomination of Desolation, and the only End Time prophecy of that event in Daniel, is found in 12:11 --

Standard translation of Daniel 12:11-12    11 And from the time that the daily/continual service shall be taken away, and an abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be 1290 days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the 1335 days.

Literal translation of Daniel 12:11-12  11 And from the time the daily/continual service has been caused to be taken away, and/even to the placing of an abomination of desolation: 1290 days. 12 Blessed/happy is the one who earnestly waits, and comes/attains to 1335 days.

For those of you who think any of the events mentioned in Daniel 11 before verse 40 is yet future, you need to do more homework. All of those events are historical, as has been shown by many historians of the era of the Greek Empire. Seleucid King Antiochus Epiphanes IV fulfilled everything from 11:21-35. The abomination of desolation committed by him, mentioned in 11:31, took place in 168 B.C. For those who might be interested, I have a 5-part series of articles on my blog called Antiochus Epiphanes and the End Times, which starts here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1411-antiochus-epiphanes-and-the-end-times-part-1-the-history/

 

 

Edited April 16, 2019 by WilliamL

[WilliamL]

On 4/11/2019 at 12:40 PM, JoeCanada said:

I don't think there is any doubt of an Iranian invasion of the Middle East. Look at the prophecy in Daniel 8:

 In the vision a ram head butts its way westward, northward and southward:

...  The Angel Gabriel informs Daniel that this vision applies to the time of the end:

He said to me, “Son of man, understand that the vision pertains to the time of the end.”  Now while he was talking with me, I sank into a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me and made me stand upright.  He said, “Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of the end.”  (Dan. 8: 17-19 

On 4/11/2019 at 9:13 AM, Uriah said:

Hello,

Anyone have  thoughts on Daniel's prophecy relating to Greece/ Antiochus/Macabees?

The view that Daniel 8 pertains to the End Times is another common misconception, based largely upon bad translations of some of the significant passages of that chapter. Case in point, the two mentions of "the time of the end" highlighted above. The Hebrew actually reads, "at a time of an end..." I dissect this chapter in some detail, showing the literal Hebrew text, in a two articles beginning here: 

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1575-daniel-924-27-examined-part-2-daniel-8ʼs-original-vision-of-“the-pesharebellion”-of-the-jews/

Here is an extensive passage from the relevant part of the second article:

Daniel 8:17 …כִּי/because לְעֶת־/for a time of קֵץ/ an end [is] הֶחָזֹֽון/the vision/revelation.

“…because the vision is for a time of an end.”

– not “the time of the end,” as this is generally mistranslated. (There is no ה/“the” before קץ.) That interpretation has imposed within it the presumption that there is only one time when there will be an end. But other prophetic, already-fulfilled times, ends, and time-of-end passages can be seen in Ezekiel 7:2-12 and 21:25, 29 (the latter verses generally mistranslated).

Daniel 8:19 …אֲשֶׁר־/what יִהְיֶה/shall happen בְּאַחֲרִית/in the latter (part/time) of הַזָּעַם/the fury/rage, כִּי/because [it is] לְמֹועֵד/for an appointed time קֵֽץ/of an end.

“…what shall happen in the latter part of the fury, because it is for an appointed time of an end.”

Again, the Hebrew does not say, as this is generally mistranslated, “at the appointed time (shall be) the end.” Like with verse 17, nothing of this event relates to our day either. To give a similar example, Daniel 11:29 prophesies “at the appointed time he [Antiochus] shall return and go toward the south,” but that “appointed time” prophecy was fulfilled in 168 B.C.

Daniel 8:23 וּֽבְאַחֲרִית/And in the latter (part/time) מַלְכוּתָם/of malkutham/their kingdom, כְּהָתֵם/while bringing to fullness [Hiphil Infin. with prefixכ: “while, when”] הַפֹּשְׁעִים/the transgressing/rebelling ones [Qal Active Participle, plural], מֶלֶךְ/a king יַעֲמֹד/shall arise…

“And in the latter part of their kingdom, while the rebelling ones/transgressors are bringing to fullness their apostasy, a king shall arise…”

These three verses, 8:17, 19, 23, are where translators and commentators often go astray, imposing words and understanding not expressed in the Hebrew. In these and similar Hebrew prophetic texts, a common default presumption of translators has been that every “time of an end,” “Day of the LORD,” and “latter day/time” must refer to the end of OUR age. This is not true at all: there have been many “ends” of kingdoms and eras prophesied that have already come to pass. For example:

Jeremiah 46:2 Against Egypt. Concerning the army of Pharaoh Necho, King of Egypt, which was by the River Euphrates in Carchemish, which Nebuchadrezzar King of Babylon smote in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah. … 10 For this is the Day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance…

This historically-famous “Day of the LORD” battle took place in 610 B.C. Other fulfilled Day of the LORD prophecies include Joel 1:15 (but not Joel 2-3), and Ezekiel 7:19 and 13:5. The final “end”/Day of the LORD/last of the last days does not come until the end of the 7th Millennium, “when He [Christ] delivers the kingdom to God the Father…[having] put an end to all rule and all authority and power.” 1 Cor. 15:24

Daniel 8:23 defines the very era of the 2300-day abasement of Jerusalemʼs Temple: “in the latter part/time of their [the Greek] kingdom.” By 168 B.C., only the significantly-diminished Seleucid and Ptolemaic kingdoms remained out of Alexanderʼs once vast empire. Therefore, the “fierce king” and ha-poshim/“the rebelling ones” of verse 23 can only be Antiochus Epiphanes and the Jewish apostates, respectively. All of the verses from 8:23-28 prophesy about the qualities and acts of Antiochus: they do not prophesy about OUR times.

 

[JoeCanada]

44 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

The view that Daniel 8 pertains to the End Times is another common misconception, based largely upon bad translations of some of the significant passages of that chapter. Case in point, the two mentions of "the time of the end" highlighted above. The Hebrew actually reads, "at a time of an end..." I dissect this chapter in some detail, showing the literal Hebrew text, in a two articles beginning here: 

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1575-daniel-924-27-examined-part-2-daniel-8ʼs-original-vision-of-“the-pesharebellion”-of-the-jews/

Here is an extensive passage from the relevant part of the second article:

Daniel 8:17 …כִּי/because לְעֶת־/for a time of קֵץ/ an end [is] הֶחָזֹֽון/the vision/revelation.

“…because the vision is for a time of an end.”

– not “the time of the end,” as this is generally mistranslated. (There is no ה/“the” before קץ.) That interpretation has imposed within it the presumption that there is only one time when there will be an end. But other prophetic, already-fulfilled times, ends, and time-of-end passages can be seen in Ezekiel 7:2-12 and 21:25, 29 (the latter verses generally mistranslated).

Daniel 8:19 …אֲשֶׁר־/what יִהְיֶה/shall happen בְּאַחֲרִית/in the latter (part/time) of הַזָּעַם/the fury/rage, כִּי/because [it is] לְמֹועֵד/for an appointed time קֵֽץ/of an end.

“…what shall happen in the latter part of the fury, because it is for an appointed time of an end.”

Again, the Hebrew does not say, as this is generally mistranslated, “at the appointed time (shall be) the end.” Like with verse 17, nothing of this event relates to our day either. To give a similar example, Daniel 11:29 prophesies “at the appointed time he [Antiochus] shall return and go toward the south,” but that “appointed time” prophecy was fulfilled in 168 B.C.

Daniel 8:23 וּֽבְאַחֲרִית/And in the latter (part/time) מַלְכוּתָם/of malkutham/their kingdom, כְּהָתֵם/while bringing to fullness [Hiphil Infin. with prefixכ: “while, when”] הַפֹּשְׁעִים/the transgressing/rebelling ones [Qal Active Participle, plural], מֶלֶךְ/a king יַעֲמֹד/shall arise…

“And in the latter part of their kingdom, while the rebelling ones/transgressors are bringing to fullness their apostasy, a king shall arise…”

These three verses, 8:17, 19, 23, are where translators and commentators often go astray, imposing words and understanding not expressed in the Hebrew. In these and similar Hebrew prophetic texts, a common default presumption of translators has been that every “time of an end,” “Day of the LORD,” and “latter day/time” must refer to the end of OUR age. This is not true at all: there have been many “ends” of kingdoms and eras prophesied that have already come to pass. For example:

Jeremiah 46:2 Against Egypt. Concerning the army of Pharaoh Necho, King of Egypt, which was by the River Euphrates in Carchemish, which Nebuchadrezzar King of Babylon smote in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah. … 10 For this is the Day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance…

This historically-famous “Day of the LORD” battle took place in 610 B.C. Other fulfilled Day of the LORD prophecies include Joel 1:15 (but not Joel 2-3), and Ezekiel 7:19 and 13:5. The final “end”/Day of the LORD/last of the last days does not come until the end of the 7th Millennium, “when He [Christ] delivers the kingdom to God the Father…[having] put an end to all rule and all authority and power.” 1 Cor. 15:24

Daniel 8:23 defines the very era of the 2300-day abasement of Jerusalemʼs Temple: “in the latter part/time of their [the Greek] kingdom.” By 168 B.C., only the significantly-diminished Seleucid and Ptolemaic kingdoms remained out of Alexanderʼs once vast empire. Therefore, the “fierce king” and ha-poshim/“the rebelling ones” of verse 23 can only be Antiochus Epiphanes and the Jewish apostates, respectively. All of the verses from 8:23-28 prophesy about the qualities and acts of Antiochus: they do not prophesy about OUR times.

 

Hi WilliamL,

Will you then claim that Antiochus caused some of the stars (angels) to fall from heaven?

"He will oppose the Prince of the princes, but he will be broken without human agency"

Antiochus didn't die without human agency.........Antiochus died from disease. 

[WilliamL]

31 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi WilliamL,

Will you then claim that Antiochus caused some of the stars (angels) to fall from heaven?

"He will oppose the Prince of the princes, but he will be broken without human agency"

Antiochus didn't die without human agency.........Antiochus died from disease. 

Answered in the first of the two Daniel 8 posts, listed above:

Daniel 8:10 And he became great unto the host of the heavens, and caused to fall [Hiphil] earthward some from the host and from the stars, and trampled them. 11 And he was made great [Hiphil] unto the sar/chief of the host… 25 “…and he shall stand against the sar-sarim/chief one of chief ones…”

Antiochus took the titular name Epiphanes, which literally means “Over-Shining One,” or more generally “Manifestation (of Godhood).” To dispel any doubt, he minted coins carrying his portrait along with the words Theos Epiphanes: “God Manifest.” He was thoroughly possessed by a heavenly sar/chief one/Power. And, as such, felt empowered to contest for preeminence over the Land of Israel and the Jerusalem Temple with the sar-sarim of heaven. Some have supposed that one to be Onias III, the pious Jewish High Priest. Others have presumed him to be the pre-incarnate Christ. But in Daniel 10:13 and 12:1, the pre-incarnate Christ tells us that “the אחד/first/foremost of the ancestral sarim” [Heb. אַחַד הַשָּׂרִים הָרִאשֹׁנִים] is the archangel Michael, who is “the great sar, the one standing over your people [Israel].” See also Daniel 10:21, Revelation 12:7, Jude 9, and Joshua 5:14.

When a man is thoroughly possessed by one of the angelic Powers, he has that power to call upon to contest with other angelic powers. Just as we do when we are operating by the power of the Holy Spirit. Just as the Son of Perdition will have in the future:

2 Thes. 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders...

Yes, Antiochus "died from disease" -- he was "broken without hand," just as Daniel 8:25 prophesied.

[JoeCanada]

18 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Answered in the first of the two Daniel 8 posts, listed above:

Daniel 8:10 And he became great unto the host of the heavens, and caused to fall [Hiphil] earthward some from the host and from the stars, and trampled them. 11 And he was made great [Hiphil] unto the sar/chief of the host… 25 “…and he shall stand against the sar-sarim/chief one of chief ones…”

Antiochus took the titular name Epiphanes, which literally means “Over-Shining One,” or more generally “Manifestation (of Godhood).” To dispel any doubt, he minted coins carrying his portrait along with the words Theos Epiphanes: “God Manifest.” He was thoroughly possessed by a heavenly sar/chief one/Power. And, as such, felt empowered to contest for preeminence over the Land of Israel and the Jerusalem Temple with the sar-sarim of heaven. Some have supposed that one to be Onias III, the pious Jewish High Priest. Others have presumed him to be the pre-incarnate Christ. But in Daniel 10:13 and 12:1, the pre-incarnate Christ tells us that “the אחד/first/foremost of the ancestral sarim” [Heb. אַחַד הַשָּׂרִים הָרִאשֹׁנִים] is the archangel Michael, who is “the great sar, the one standing over your people [Israel].” See also Daniel 10:21, Revelation 12:7, Jude 9, and Joshua 5:14.

When a man is thoroughly possessed by one of the angelic Powers, he has that power to call upon to contest with other angelic powers. Just as we do when we are operating by the power of the Holy Spirit. Just as the Son of Perdition will have in the future:

2 Thes. 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders...

Yes, Antiochus "died from disease" -- he was "broken without hand," just as Daniel 8:25 prophesied.

Hi WilliamL,

The Book of Revelation describes precisely the same event, but there it is Satan the dragon, who causes the angels to fall, and it is something that takes place in the last seven years before the return of Christ:

Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth… the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. (Rev. 12:3-4,7-9)

[WilliamL]

18 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi WilliamL,

The Book of Revelation describes precisely the same event, but there it is Satan the dragon, who causes the angels to fall, and it is something that takes place in the last seven years before the return of Christ:

Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth… the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. (Rev. 12:3-4,7-9)

I would say a similar event, certainly not the same one.

Note that if you read a little further in Rev. 12, you will find out who is to be at least partially responsible for the casting down of the rebellious angels of heaven:

Rev. 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death."

The "our brethren" with this power are those first mentioned in verse 5:

She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

-- whom Jesus had described previously in Rev. 2:26-27:

“And the one overcoming, and keeping My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—
as I also have received from My Father.

One cannot have power over the nations without first having authority over the angelic Powers that rule over those nations:

1 Corinthians 6:3  Do you not know that we shall judge angels?

 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2019 by WilliamL