Discrimination Against Gays - What Would You Base That On?

[thomas t]

Hi all,

yesterday, a fellow poster said homosexuals can be asked to leave at church.

In my view, sexuality is part of the identity of a person. It belongs to them. Asking them to leave just for entertaining a same sex relationship would mean condemning the person - not the act, I think.

Moreover, this would stand in sharp contrast to the treatment of remarried couples (marrying a divorced woman). From all I know from churches, they never get asked to leave church.

 

Disclaimer: In this thread I will be discussing discrimination only - as opposed to the question whether or not it is sin to live in a same sex relationship. I want to keep the thread as focussed as possible. Let's discuss discrimination at churches.

 

Regards,

Thomas

 

Edited May 29, 2019 by thomas t
wrong grammar

[Omegaman 3.0]

Actually, I think I agree mostly, with what I think your point it. Some churches look the other way, when there is a man and a woman living together outside of marriage. They look with disfavor, upon two men or two women living together in a marriage-like relationship.

Here is the thing though, practically speaking. These couples, whether homosexual or heterosexual, are in somewhat different situations. Usually we might consider that two of like gender, are just room-mates, sharing an apartment, unless they are vocal about the intimate details of their lives, or they volunteer information about sleeping in the same bed. People are also likely to form opinions based on stereotypes. Are two men hairdressers, interior decorators, or airline stewards etc. Dress flamboyantly, or speak with a lisp, or have limp wrists, etc. Similarly, the female stereotypes also exists, I do not need to go into details, I feel certain that most readers know what I mean.

These stereotypes, are going to happen, and some people will think the worst. Is that the right thing to do? No, but it is realistic to expect it to happen. Without certain knowledge, we should not assume the worst of people.

If a single man and a single woman, share a residence, that also will be looked upon with suspicion, unless maybe they are brother and sister. 

So, there are several things going on here, wrongly assuming and judging people without reason, and also innocent people, who do not take the admonition to avoid the appearance of evil, seriously.

You cannot keep people from thinking what they will think, but I think it is upon the leadership of the local church, to cultivate a culture of tolerance and non-judgmentalism. If we  hear from the pulpit, that we are not to judge others inappropriately, or to tolerate and welcome people who are not like us, then some of these issues just might go away. We need to keep in mind, that none of us are without sin, and that apart from the grace of God, we would not be saved, and perhaps might even be "worse" than the people we are critical of. "There but for the grace of God, go I"! Leave the stones at home, so you are not tempted to cast them!

Can homosexuals be asked to leave a church? Sure they can, if they are practicing that sin. If it is just a matter of identity, I do not think that is proper. I have lied in my life, therefore I am a liar. I have stolen in my life, therefore I am a thief. I have driven 56 M.P.H, when the posted speed limit was 55 M.P.H. that makes me a law breaker.

If I were to persist in lying, stealing, or law breaking, then I think if is a good idea to be excommunicated. If we consistently held to such practices, and we knew the lives of the individuals in our congregations, now many people could stay in the church?

Church attendance should not be our main goal. However, we also need to consider that we do not want to drive sinners away, just because they are sinners, we are ALL sinners. Jesus suffered and died for homosexuals, just as He died for me, who am I to deny them the opportunity to learn about God, and to be admonished to a life of purity, and to be encouraged and edified, by those who have become more mature in the faith? Around God's people, is were unsaved sinners should be. Saved sinners, should act in a way consistent with the will of their Lord, it is not that complex.

I think that is about all the commentary, I want to contribute to the topic!

[Who me]

Discrimination is unbiblical in all cases whether because someone is poorer, badly dressed, the wrong skin colour, wrong race,married, unmarried, living together, married a divorced person etc etc

There should not be a bias against or in faviour of particular groups.

 

That said there are also biblical standards that have to be adhered to. While people seeking Jesus are or should be welcome what ever there situation, once they become Christian then they should be counciled about the aproprate behaviour.i.e. unmarried to get married.

[BeauJangles]

In my latter teen years, I attended a church in a very small backward country town. The piano accompanist to the choir was pretty obviously gay. You could tell by the way he minced from the front pew, and sat down at the bench. He kept to himself, and seldom spoke to the rather social members after services. When he did address anyone, you couldn't mistake the effeminate lisp in his voice. The growing youth attendees felt rather sorry for him, and just accepted this guy the way he was. After all, we also were accepted with our hip appearances, the bell bottom jeans, sandals, and long hair. Although a few of the matrons would hint at getting trims.  

Anyway, the pastor's son lived in San Francisco, and would come to visit on occasion. He was also suspected by some whispers that circled in our group. Not an obvious case, but well, it was just an understanding. No one ever dared take to critical objections to either of these gentlemen. There were no question as to if they were or weren't active in the 'life style'. Perhaps things were a bit more hush-hush in those days. This was well before AIDS/HIV, and the anti-gay frenzy took hold among the nations as a whole. That too, has seemingly subsided. Have things changed for the better or worse since then? To be perfectly honest, I'm not really sure. 

Shalom, 

David/BeauJangles     

Edited May 29, 2019 by BeauJangles

[thomas t]

Hi Omegaman,

thank you for your answer.

3 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

If it is just a matter of identity, I do not think that is proper. I have lied in my life, therefore I am a liar. I have stolen in my life, therefore I am a thief. I have driven 56 M.P.H, when the posted speed limit was 55 M.P.H. that makes me a law breaker.

If you lie, confess. Jesus will brush that sin away. And then you are clean again, no more a sinner. This is at least my own theology. Even if this happens 10 times a day, the outcome is always the same.

... but when it comes to sexual orientation... we are talking about a personality trait.

So... will Jesus brush personality traits away? If so, prove it please. This is what I'd love to tell you.

Prove it, please, before you say it's just to make them leave when they make their relationship apparent.

Moreover, a close relationship belongs to your life. Jesus sees relationships as parts of your body sometimes (see Zech 2:12). Jesus never speaks about a lie as having a part of your body. So, there is a difference, I'd conclude.

Regards,

Thomas

[Billiards Ball]

5 hours ago, thomas t said:

Hi all,

yesterday, a fellow poster said homosexuals can be asked to leave at church.

In my view, sexuality is part of the identity of a person. It belongs to them. Asking them to leave just for entertaining a same sex relationship would mean condemning the person - not the act, I think.

Moreover, this would stand in sharp contrast to the treatment of remarried couples (marrying a divorced woman). From all I know from churches, they never get asked to leave church.

 

Disclaimer: In this thread I will be discussing discrimination only - as opposed to the question whether or not it is sin to live in a same sex relationship. I want to keep the thread as focussed as possible. Let's discuss discrimination at churches.

 

Regards,

Thomas

 

That is NOT what I posted. What I posted was, "unrepentant homosexuals can be asked to leave a church". AND I posted "people struggling with homosexual desire should receive love, not condemnation."

Obeying God's commands and principles for church discipline for unrepentant sin (Matthew 18) is NOT discrimination.

[other one]

I think they should be barred membership, but not barred from attendance. Their active homosexual actions should not be accepted as normal just as adultery should not. And sermons should occasionally say so. But they should never understand their lifestyle is acceptable by the Bible.

If they want to be avtively gay and be barred from entering the kingdom, it is their freedom to do so; it is our duty for that not to be a surprise when they are told that Jesus never knew them.

 

[thomas t]

52 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

Obeying God's commands and principles for church discipline for unrepentant sin (Matthew 18) is NOT discrimination.

Hi BB,

actually, it is when there are others who don't receive the same treatment: A husband who married a divorced lady living together with her... never gets banned from church (this is my impression, at least). If a church says we discipline for unrepentant sin ... they should make no exceptions. Otherwise it would be discriminating against LGBT people. Please: Never show partiality against gays and lesbians. Lets keep the peace with them. We need it.

Regards,

Thomas

 

[thomas t]

1 hour ago, other one said:

I think they should be barred membership,

Hi other one,

when man passes a judgement on others just on grounds of their sexual orientation - including partnership - for me, this goes to far. Jesus can, man shoulnd't, in my opinion.

Sexual orientation is part of our personal sphere, man should not pass a judgement based on personality, please. There are limits for judgement. Judge actions - not people (including their personality).

Thomas

[johnthebaptist]

7 hours ago, thomas t said:

Hi all,

yesterday, a fellow poster said homosexuals can be asked to leave at church.

In my view, sexuality is part of the identity of a person. It belongs to them. Asking them to leave just for entertaining a same sex relationship would mean condemning the person - not the act, I think.

Moreover, this would stand in sharp contrast to the treatment of remarried couples (marrying a divorced woman). From all I know from churches, they never get asked to leave church.

 

Disclaimer: In this thread I will be discussing discrimination only - as opposed to the question whether or not it is sin to live in a same sex relationship. I want to keep the thread as focussed as possible. Let's discuss discrimination at churches.

 

Regards,

Thomas

 

Despite your wishes, I have to take issue with your statement, “In my view, sexuality is part of the identity of a person. It belongs to them,” because the Lord said this: “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination (Lev 18:22 RSV).” 

On the other hand, I agree with your point about how, in my opinion, it would be unfair to discriminate against homosexuals, while not discriminating against people who divorce and remarry, with one proviso: People whose spouse has been guilty of unchastity are free to divorce, and, perhaps, remarry (Matt 19:9).