The Seven Heads of Daniel 7 and Rev. 17

[breathoflife]

No where in Scripture are locusts shown to be evil. Can’t make a doctrine on one verse. The entire context is showing these locust are demonic and that continues in that same manner in the prophetic use of locust is the same. These are the same locust that came up out of the Bottomless Pit.

[wingnut-]

They are not locusts, that is a metaphorical attribute based on their sheer number, that is what Joel is conveying.  And the fact that the Lord is at the head of this army means He is leading it.  He is not going to be leading an army of demons, He leads His army out of heaven, and this is them covering the earth.  It's really not that complicated.

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Let me focus primarily on your last two comments. 

The great image has feet and 10 toes of a mixture of iron AND clay.   When the stone kingdom strikes the image,  it strikes the feet of the image.   It also says that the "'iron AND clay, brass,  silver and gold", were [all] broken to pieces TOGETHER.   The 10 toes of the kingdom of the beast,  will be in existence AND destroyed (abad, Daniel 7:11) when the kingdom of God is set up. 

What you don't seem to understand is that the 7th king (of the kingdom of the beast)  is the same as the beast from the sea in Rev 13.  And then (unequivocably) the 8th king will rise after him.   And from Rev 13, we know that the 8th king arises when the 7th king received a wound unto death with 42 months to go until the advent of Jesus at Armageddon. 

The 7th king leads the conglomerate attack by the 10 horns/ kingdoms prior to the rise of the 8th.   This means that it is some [short (one hour), unspecified] period of time BEFORE the final 42 months begin.   

 
Rev 17:12-13 KJV    And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings ONE hour WITH the BEAST. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

The dominions that belong to the kingdoms of the Lion, Bear & Leopard,  are taken away at the time that the KOG is set up.  This is the kingdom (of the 10 horns)  of the beast that are taken away at that time.   The 8th king will arise 'from the earth' at that time and reign over the kingdom of the beast (previously ruled by the little horn).  This is found in Daniel 7:24 where it says that another shall rise up and subdue (the first 3 kings from the earth)  and take away their dominion and rule for 'a time,  times,  and the dividing of time(42 months) ' as per Daniel 7:25.  This is the 8th king of Rev 17.  From this point on,  the saints will rise up (in this time)  to consume the kingdom of the beast. 

Dan 7:25-27 KJV    And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and THEY [the saints] shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and THEY [the saints] shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

It's not a myth.  It's scripture! 

I was not real clear on the meaning of the 7 mountains.   It may have sounded like I said that the 7 heads ONLY represent 7 mountains.  Any additional interpretation is only an implied understanding.   My point being that 'there are also 7 kings' is a bit of information that is not implicitly implied from the interpretation of the "7 heads".  On the contrary part,  this is illustrated in Rev 13, IF we were to apply this rule of singularity to the beast from the sea.   It would not make any sense to say that "one of the 7 mountains,  literally" received a mortal head wound.   It would be an inconsistent rendering to hold to a limited understanding of the 7 heads.   The (limited) interpretation of the meaning of the 7 heads is only found in Rev 17.  So,  I would agree with you that the 7 heads are the 10 minus 3 that remain after 3 are uprooted.   But they do not represent 7 kingdoms that ruled over Jerusalem in history past. 

Imho, you have a differing belief,  because you believe that the 10 kings attack Jerusalem at the very end of the 70th week,  rather than in the middle of the week. 

The FOUR kingdoms of the great image do not represent a historical recounting because,  if they did,  there would be FIVE kingdoms (Gold, Silver,  Brass,  Iron,  and Iron & Clay) to account for,  when Daniel 2 clearly says that there are only 4.  The 4th king of Daniel 7 rules over the kingdom of iron and clay, and not just iron.   The Iron & Clay has iron teeth and brass nails, meaning that it's territorial dominion is more than just the iron kingdom. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

P.S.  I guess I should that I am not advocating a post-trib rapture,  because it says, 

1.  THE SAINTS consume the kingdom of the beast, 

2. THE SAINTS are given into the hands of the 8th king.

The saints are referring almost exclusively to the children of Israel,  the physically descendent inheritors of the kingdom, AND NOT to the church. 

Be Blessed 

 The 10 toes of the kingdom of the beast,  will be in existence AND destroyed (abad, Daniel 7:11) when the kingdom of God is set up.  Agreed. I think these ten toes represent the ten nations that at the beginning of the week OR right after the midpoint, takes out three of the 10 leaving 7, then becomes the 8th king of the 7.  This is NOT the ten horns that throw in with the Beast at the end of the week to destroy Israel and Jerusalem.

What you don't seem to understand is that the 7th king (of the kingdom of the beast)  is the same as the beast from the sea in Rev 13.  And then (unequivocably) the 8th king will rise after him.  Simple: I can't find this in scripture. Perhaps you can help me there. I think the Beast of Revelation is the Little Horn fr0m the ten that becomes the 8th King. Paul called him the man of sin. John called him the "beast."  John wrote "you have heard the antichrist shall come.." What? Do you think the 8th king is the false prophet?

And from Rev 13, we know that the 8th king arises when the 7th king received a wound unto death with 42 months to go  I don't know it , and will not believe it unless you can show it clearly in scripture. It is one of the 7 heads (a nation or empire) that receives a deadly wound, the the man of sin turned Beast.

(one hour)  Where in Revelation do we find this "one hour?" It is in Revelation 4 times: once in chapter 17 and three times in chapter 18 - and it is referring to the destruction of "Babylon" which happens at the 7th vial that ends the week. In my mind you are over 42 months off. I think this is when the world begins to know they have been deceived and hate the whore and all the nations with armies send them to Israel to wipe Israel off the map.  Remember, it is the 6th vial where demonic spirits are sent out to draw the nations in.

¹⁴ For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

I think "ten" here is symbolic for all or complete: every nation with a standing army will send troops.

The dominions that belong to the kingdoms of the Lion, Bear & Leopard,  are taken away at the time that the KOG is set up.  When do you see the "KOG" set up? It cannot be set up until after Rev. 19 when Jesus returns - and that is after the entire week. (The week ends in chapter 16 with the 7th vial.) Perhaps you see the kingdom of God set up at the 7th trumpet?

The 8th king will arise 'from the earth' at that time and reign over the kingdom of the beast (previously ruled by the little horn)  I am sorry, but the Beast and False Prophet are TOGETHER for the last 42 months. I could not disagree more here.  They are captured together and thrown into the lake of fire together.

another shall rise up and subdue (the first 3 kings from the earth)  you are not reading this verse correctly.

there came up among them another [another from the ten Daniel saw first, NOT a second "little horn."]  little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots:  It is the one and only little horn from chapter 7, the very same as the man of sinned turned Beast in Rev. 13. (There is a different "Little Horn" in Dan. 8 that refers to Antiochus.) There is only one Antichrist Beast: it will be the man of sin who gets possessed after he declares he is God.

the saints will rise up (in this time)  to consume the kingdom of the beast.   Where on earth do you come up with this stuff? It is GOD that systematically destroys the kingdom of the Beast! During the first 6 vials with plagues many of the Beast's armies will be destroyed. Then at Armageddon most of the remaining will be destroyed.

the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High   The saints don't take it, it is GIVEN to them. It is God that destroys the Antichrist's kingdom.

²⁶ But the judgment shall be set [by the court of the Most High], and they shall take away his dominion to consume it [gradually] and to destroy it [suddenly] in the end.  (AMP)

It is the "judgment" or those on the heavenly court that takes away his dominion.  The few (if any) saints that survive the Beast are not in any condition to "take" anything. They will have been "overcome" as is written. If any survive, they will not be rescued until Jesus' return after the week has finished.

It's not a myth.  It's scripture!   it is myth: it is the way you read scripture.

IMHO when it says there are 7 mountains and there are 7 kings; it is telling us that each mountain has a king.

they do not represent 7 kingdoms that ruled over Jerusalem in history past.  I think they represent BOTH the past and the future. Just my opinion.

because you believe that the 10 kings attack Jerusalem at the very end of the 70th week  Revelation 17 is after the week has ended. Prior to the end of the week, the Beast and False Prophet are still residing in Jerusalem deceiving the world.

Gold, Silver,  Brass,  Iron,  and Iron & Clay  I think this is only telling us that at the end of the 4th kingdom, there is division - like how Muslims absolutely refuse the "melting pot" theory: they refuse to "melt." They WILL NOT "mix" with the people where they go.

I agree, not the church. The "saints" there are descendants of Jacob.

[iamlamad]

15 hours ago, breathoflife said:

The 10 heads-is easy to understand if we allow Scripture to say what it says. The prophet Zechariah  tells of the coming splitting of Israel into a divided kingdom. Why is this important? When she splits the northern kingdom of Israel has ten kingdoms and of that 10 3 have been plucked leaving 10 crowns but only 7  heads. Apostate Israel will be the Harlot riding the red beast having a kingdom with 7 heads and 10 crowns. 

You are thousands of years off! The northern kingdoms were carried away into Assyria. I don't think the ten of whom 3 are plucked up have anything to do with Israel. It is JERUSALEM that is the Mystery Babylon: the Beast and false prophet will deceive the entire world from Jerusalem - the very city that God meant to show the world the GOODNESS of God!

[iamlamad]

15 hours ago, breathoflife said:

the verse is actually showing God’s sovereign rule. Just as anti-christ as the Assyrian is said to be the instrument of the Lord’s judgment. It does not mean they Assyrian is used by God to deliver His judgement. But it is tricky. Do you have access to The Treasury of Scriptural knowledge available. Great book really helps studying they link verses from the beginning of there place in Scripture to its end. Also robertson’s Greek -English. The Lord comes from heaven with His angels.  These are the angels who have been locked Thee pit waiting the time of judgement.    

The Lord comes from heaven with His angels.  These are the angels who have been locked Thee pit waiting the time of judgement.   Sorry, but this is myth. It is FALLEN angels who are locked up until judgment day.

[iamlamad]

16 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

This verse makes it fairly clear this is not a demonic army, this is the rider on the white horse from Revelation 19.  The day of the Lord is all about God's judgement, your timing is off on this one.

God bless

Without a doubt!

[douggg]

On 9/30/2019 at 1:13 PM, iamlamad said:

In Daniel 7 the first beast was a Lion with one head: perhaps to represent Babylon then and the land area today.

The second beast was a bear with one head: perhaps to represent Medo-Persia then and the land area today.

The third beast was a leopard with four heads: perhaps to represent Alexander's four Generals: Lysimachus, Cassander, Ptolomy, Seleucus

The fourth beast was a fearsome beast with one head: to represent Ancient Rome and then perhaps the Antichrist Beast of Revelation.

When I count up these heads, I get seven heads. 

The 7 heads  of Daniel 7 does not correspond to the 7 heads in Revelation 17, because the seventh head in Revelation 17 is yet to come.

The 7 heads of Daniel 7 are historic.  So it is not a match.

Edited October 4, 2019 by douggg

[breathoflife]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are thousands of years off! The northern kingdoms were carried away into Assyria. I don't think the ten of whom 3 are plucked up have anything to do with Israel. It is JERUSALEM that is the Mystery Babylon: the Beast and false prophet will deceive the entire world from Jerusalem - the very city that God meant to show the world the GOODNESS of God!

Here we go. All you have to do is prove that the splitting of the nation of Israel does not take place in the end times. . Then you need to show the northern kingdom did not have 10 shepherds 3 of who get plucked up all in the last day. There is no other nation shown at that time with ten kingdoms and 3 plucked up other than apostate Israel. Never are the locust in Scripture shown in any other light than evil.

[iamlamad]

46 minutes ago, breathoflife said:

Here we go. All you have to do is prove that the splitting of the nation of Israel does not take place in the end times. . Then you need to show the northern kingdom did not have 10 shepherds 3 of who get plucked up all in the last day. There is no other nation shown at that time with ten kingdoms and 3 plucked up other than apostate Israel. Never are the locust in Scripture shown in any other light than evil.

The locusts in Revelation that sting like scorpions are one of God's trumpet judgments and the first woe. You decide of they are evil. God uses them for his purposes.

[iamlamad]

49 minutes ago, douggg said:

The 7 heads  of Daniel 7 does not correspond to the 7 heads in Revelation 17, because the seventh head in Revelation 17 is yet to come.

The 7 heads of Daniel 7 are historic.  So it is not a match.

Hmmmm. 

²¹ As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them

²² Until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High [God], and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.

Please tell us where or when in history this took place. Perhaps you imagine that verse 21 was history but 22 is future?

It is Interesting, John tells us that some time in our future the Beast will be prevailing over the saints - which most people think is exactly what Daniel is talking about.