The Seven Heads of Daniel 7 and Rev. 17

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

I suppose it depends on your view? Constantine turned Rome into a church / state system, the state part wilted into obscurity, but the church part [RCC] continued on and thrives today. Last check, Catholicism is the world's largest religion with 1.6 billion followers, closely followed by Islam with 1.4 billion followers. That's close to half the globes population. 

Traditional scholarship has mostly maintained as you know, that the feet and toes represent European nations and there loose association. We can already see that with their borders, defense pacts, talk about a European Army and the Euro, etc., it's unstable with Brexit as an example. It seems to nicely fit scripture. I suspect it is even possible the ten toes could represent the 'ten' global economic zones the United Nations has divided the world into, and their leaders? It appears to me the U.N. is a key player in shaping up end time events with their "Agendas".

However and with that said; I've been reading and closely studying some modern scholarship, that like you said, places Islam as the legs, feet and toes. One leg representing Shia and the other Sunni, the two major branches loosely allied depending on the cause. They hate each other but they hate the Jews and true Christians even worse. I have to say, I've found no holes in their argument and it fits nicely also. 

I've always firmly believed the Bible was referring to European nations. With the advent of ecumenism and the Pope signing agreements with the Muslim's, and trying to bring all religion under one umbrella, back to the 'one true church', it's getting interesting. No doubt Islam is and will be playing a major role in end time events. I have changed some of my firm views to just watching the pieces fall into place and not be dogmatic with my interpretations. However the Lord accomplishes His will and the players involved; we definitely see the moving and shaking taking place in our very own lifetimes. 

Dennis, keep in mind that the Eastern leg of ancient Rome covers the Middle East, which is for the most part all Muslim nations - except Israel.

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's early, forgive me in advance if i'm terse.

Egypt, Assyria and Rome do not have any place in the context of this discussion. This conclusion for Egypt, Assyria and Rome is based on faulty logic forced into fragment of a sentence consisting of two words; "one is", then ignoring the bulk of evidence extant concerning this topic.

The Fourth beast is an iteration of Islam and is represented in the feet and toes of clay and iron. Not Rome. 

It's funny how we deny the evidence. Rome is long dead while Islam boasts nearly 2 billion adherents, today. In 2019. So yeah, it makes perfect sense God means Rome when Islam as a power and a people and an ideology has never ceased. Diminished for a time, but alive and well and vast in scope infiltrating every country. Waiting for the Madhi. Ready to take over the world. 

Rome, right....

 

I agree.

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

My interpretation of the heads in Daniel are the same as yours.

My thoughts on Revelation 17:3 are not conclusive and just an opinion and guess so far: 

The woman [the harlot] riding the beast is the religious system leader, a church-state system where the church leader is in charge of the Antichrist for awhile. I take the seven heads as a location, the city that sits on seven hills, Rome. Horns in the Bible usually represent 'power' or nations or countries. I personally suspect these ten horns represent a ten nation confederacy, or ten global economic trading zones like the United Nations has established. I believe the United Nations is playing a major end time role shaping up this one world global system; it's very apparent with their stated goals and "Agenda's" they have implemented. 

Taken in context, there's little doubt in my mind the "woman" and harlot is the so called 'one true church', Roman Catholicism, and it has a vicar of Christ, a holy father, full of abominations, etc. The seven heads I'll assume are the seven leaders (kings) of those ten nations or economic zones? Three of those ten will be taken out and destroyed by the Antichrist for rebelling I assume.

Anyway, there are so many opinions on the interpretations, it's hard to confirm whom is right. One thing is for sure, each day that passes, scripture seems to be popping to life in the news.

If I were you, I would go back and read it again. The woman riding the beast is a CITY: that means a population center with many houses, buildings, etc: the idea of a city has not changed over time.  John TELLS US what the angel said, "the woman is that great city..."

Picture this: God's plan was for Jerusalem to broadcast to the world how GOOD God is. In fact, during the time of Solomon, Jerusalem DID do that. But during the final 3.5 years, Jerusalem will deceive the entire world. No "religion" has come close. Yes, the entire world will be deceived by the Beast and False prophet residing in the city of Jerusalem. One thing is for sure, someone coming "in the place of Christ" will not go to the vatican! No, Jesus will come to JERUSALEM. And so will the Beast and False Prophet.

[dhchristian]

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Correct.....Daniel was shown the coming 5 Beasts {counting the Little Horn/Anti-Christ who REVIVES the Dead Beast by Conquering Israel/Mediterranean Sea Region once again. The bible is about God's Relationship with Israel. Thus the Beasts over them are shown down through history, until God {the Author of the bible} says Israel are as DEAD MEN'S BONES unto him for nigh 2000 years, just as Ezekiel prophesied in chapter 37. So once Israel is born again out come alive again unto God, and after the Rapture........when Israel is once again Conquered along with the rest of the Mediterranean Sea Region, this will be the first time since Rome that Israel were Beasted over along with this same power ruling the whole Mediterranean Sea Region. 

So Daniel is LOOKING FORWARD from his time to the coming 5 Beasts.

John is looking BACKWARDS to all 7 of the PREVIOUS BEASTS. Its just that simple. Even when they are mentioned in Rev. 13, we see the Leopard first, then the Bear and lastly the Lion. It's REVERSED. John is looking back through time. Daniel is looking forward. 

So You agree with me that the beast of revelation 13 is different from the beast of Revelation 17?

Here is how I see it.

Daniel 2's fourth beast is The U.N. New world order, a large conglomeration of nations (Many nations) This is the seventh beast of john's Revelation 17 vision, And is the beast of rev. 13 kingdom which lasts for a short while. The eighth which is of the seven is a revived regional Assyrian empire, whose main purpose is to destroy the Harlot which rides atop him. 

Daniel 7's vision of the four beasts speak of modern Kingdoms since the Zionist movements began in 1917. the fourth beast again pointing to the Antichrist led U.N. world order.... George Orwell's ministry of peace that promotes war, and is led by the Antichrist. This vision does not speak of the eighth kingdom of Rev. 17.  

[Dennis1209]

19 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Dennis, keep in mind that the Eastern leg of ancient Rome covers the Middle East, which is for the most part all Muslim nations - except Israel.

Quite right, and the Eastern leg out lasted the Western leg for about a thousand years. 

[Dennis1209]

39 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

So You agree with me that the beast of revelation 13 is different from the beast of Revelation 17?

Here is how I see it.

Daniel 2's fourth beast is The U.N. New world order, a large conglomeration of nations (Many nations) This is the seventh beast of john's Revelation 17 vision, And is the beast of rev. 13 kingdom which lasts for a short while. The eighth which is of the seven is a revived regional Assyrian empire, whose main purpose is to destroy the Harlot which rides atop him. 

Daniel 7's vision of the four beasts speak of modern Kingdoms since the Zionist movements began in 1917. the fourth beast again pointing to the Antichrist led U.N. world order.... George Orwell's ministry of peace that promotes war, and is led by the Antichrist. This vision does not speak of the eighth kingdom of Rev. 17.  

Daniel 9:27 (KJV) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. [emphasis mine]

If indeed, which I believe, we are living in the last days, we should be able to see the means or established organization that represents 'the many', or a global body we could say represents the 'world'. The League of Nations, now the United Nations, certainly fits that bill. 

As you pointed out about the Zionist movement [or Balfour Declaration of 1917]; the Jubilee number, 50 years later Jerusalem in the 1967 war regained control of Jerusalem once again. Then exactly 50 years later in 2017, the announcement from Trump of the official recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's eternal Capitol, and moving the embassy is amazing. The Temple Institute coin they made with Trump and King Cyrus, with a stamp of the future temple on the reverse a coincidence? Not to mention Isiah's prophecy of Israel becoming a nation once again in a single day; May 14, 1948. The generation that witnessed Israel become a nation once again shall not pass.

Reading the United Nations numerous "Agenda's" and resolutions... It screams, hollers and shouts a new world order and a one world global government on the horizon. The Lord sits and removes Kings [and presidents], I think Trump was specifically divinely appointed for the Lord's plan and purpose. I'm thinking if America doesn't shortly receive our overdue national judgment and / or the Rapture is tarried; based on the socialistic attitude of Americans today; the next president is going to be a socialist and globalist, then it's game - set - and match for America and the world as we know it? 

Edited October 1, 2019 by Dennis1209

[Alive]

I am not sure that the USA is going to be a major player at the end.

[breathoflife]

&0 Weeks of Years has been decreed for Daniel's people and Daniel's city. If you are going to claim this last, 70th Week, it must have as it focus Daniel's people and city. Rome won't fit, Arabs don't fit nothing but Daniel's people and city fulfills the prophecy. All one has to do to prove otherwise is show where Scripture changed that ending to Gentiles and a Gentile city. Prophecy after prophecy shows the condition of apostate Israel in that day and still excuses for others fulfilling this are suggested. Also why is the underpinnings of others having wrong motives for their belief while extolling the high moral fiber of our own beliefs. From

De. 32 As a witness against them. Shown taking anti-Christ

Isaiah 1-5 apostate Israel on the day of the Lord.

Jeremiah 1-12 apostate Israel

Ez. to many chapters One of the worst books for anyone trying to claim Gentile entities in the Last Days replacing apostate Israel.

Ez. 23 the Mother of Harlots There is no other mother of harlots. 

The list goes on and on Joel, Amos, etc. all showing apostate Israel as the central figure of those last days. There are so many prophetic teachings concerning Israel and the Last Days that even if Daniel had not said Daniel's city and people we should have been drawn to all the Last Day prophecies that reveal her over and over again. Prophecies like "virgin Israel will never rise again." Has Israel risen again? well then this destruction being spoken of here must not have been the one spoken of here. 

How do you take the Song of Moses that is to be a witness against them in De. 32 that shows them rejecting "The Rock" Jesus Christ for another small "r" rock who is anti-Christ. Knowing that this prophecy clearly shows apostate Israel taking for herself anti-Christ. Yet we come to the prophecies in Isaiah 1-5 that shows her on the day of the Lord as being so apostate she cannot get any more apostate. She wreaks of false gods, riches, power all things she had to amass when anti-Christ had been there. When no one may buy our sell. This mystery Babylon was not in full apostasy she became like that. Yet its apostate Israel referred to as the faithful city who has become the harlot. Where is any Gentile entity shown committing spiritual harlotry? Just a few thoughts on why she cannot be Gentile

[Marilyn C]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Marilyn, OF COURSE it is kings and rulers of governments that are judged, but it is a fact, Nebuchadnezzar is dead. WHO then is the "king" of that land area today?  Darius of Persia that lost the war to Alexander is long gone, but who is "king" of that land area today? Land areas never change; what changes is who rules over them.

Case in point: when Jesus the ROCK strikes the feet of the image in Daniel 2, and the whole image turns to dust - It is not going to be a judgment then again Nebuchadnezzar for he will long gone when Jesus comes. Will that judgment then come upon who is king of "babylon" now?

Do you not understand that for the last 3.5 weeks of the Jewish 70th week, the entire world will be deceived by the Beast and False prophet FROM JERUSALEM? That is John's "great city." It will be their headquarters.

Hi iamlamad,

Yes rulers change BUT God is ONLY showing which are the Gentile World Rulers. We know 4 have come & been judged so there is one left to come to a head and be judged. The Great Image is a man, representing the `times of the Gentiles ruling the world.` The parts of the image are the specific rulers. The whole image represents the whole of the Gentiles ruling.

Yes the A/C will set up his rulership from Jerusalem, as God`s word tells us, however it is AFTER God has dealt with the A/C`s rulership from Babylon.

You say Jerusalem is Babylon, but the 10 kings (of Islam) get rid of the whore, and God destroys the city of Babylon. So to that thinking, Jerusalem would be destroyed. Yet the world`s armies will surround Jerusalem, so Babylon can`t be Jerusalem. 

Marilyn.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

Yes rulers change BUT God is ONLY showing which are the Gentile World Rulers. We know 4 have come & been judged so there is one left to come to a head and be judged. The Great Image is a man, representing the `times of the Gentiles ruling the world.` The parts of the image are the specific rulers. The whole image represents the whole of the Gentiles ruling.

Yes the A/C will set up his rulership from Jerusalem, as God`s word tells us, however it is AFTER God has dealt with the A/C`s rulership from Babylon.

You say Jerusalem is Babylon, but the 10 kings (of Islam) get rid of the whore, and God destroys the city of Babylon. So to that thinking, Jerusalem would be destroyed. Yet the world`s armies will surround Jerusalem, so Babylon can`t be Jerusalem. 

Marilyn.

They will attack Israel and most certainly attack Jerusalem, and just when it looks hopeless, Jesus returns. The city is not 100% "taken" and Jews will flee the city in the new valley. The ten horns are the nations of the world that will join with the Beast for one hour  - the last hour -  to wipe Israel off the map. AT least, that is what they THINK they will be doing. OF COURSE "Babylon" can be Jerusalem. But it is "mystery" babylon: the city that deceives the entire world. The real physical city will be rebuilt, but "mystery" city will never bee seen again. Jerusalem will never, every again, be a city for the devil. The city will never again kill the prophets. All is says is they hate the whore and burn her with fire; it is not written that the city is totally destroyed. We all know that 1/3 of the Hebrews will make it through the fire - literally and figuratively. 

The Beast will arrive in Jerusalem as the man of sin just a few days before he will enter the temple and declare he is God. He never leaves except perhaps for war exploits. It is not long after the midpoint that the image and mark is created.