Does Paul tells us WHEN the rapture will come?

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

Again, the 1st 5 seals are the tribulation which agrees with what Jesus says in Matt 24. Jesus and John agree. Immediately after the tribulation Jesus comes. We see that in Rev 6, Rev 14, Matt 24

Anyone can make a verse say almost anything if they are willing to pull it out of context.  Jesus got the book AS SOON AS HE ASCENDED and began opening the seals. Therefore seal one was opened around 32 AD so God could send out the church with the gospel.  This white horse and rider rides ALONE.  The Red, the Black and the Pale horses and riders ride TOGETHER. They cannot possibly in any way represent the days of GT.  God has NO WRATH pointed to the martyrs. But if they were in the timeframe of the GT God's wrath would be poured out. 

The truth then is the first 5 seals are CHURCH AGE. You are 2000 years off here. Your argument fails yet again. 

You are trying to force TWO comings into one. You are trying to make TWO signs into one. It does not work. Your argument fails. I give up. You and I are MILES apart in our understanding.

Edited April 6, 2020 by iamlamad

[George]

40 minutes ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

In my understanding, what you are judging be an offense or attacks, in Truth it is the Spirit of the Lord, I would say worried with the salvation of the souls of them which are believing in lies, and in apostasies, and they turned away their ears from the Truth of God , and they turned to the fables, and unto them I have said to re-study,  or that they should or must discard that fake interpretations. The Word of the LORD says: James 5:v.19-20 - 19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;  20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

But if you will have a greater hope to recover someone in error when allowing the Spirit of God to do the work of restoration!

Learn this passage WELL -- 

Pro 18:19  A brother offended is more unyielding than a strong city, and quarreling is like the bars of a castle. 

How do we teach as a SERVANT of the LORD?

2Ti 2:24  And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 
2Ti 2:25  correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 
2Ti 2:26  and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. 

In a discussion, if you make it PERSONAL -- then it becomes a PERSONAL argument, and this is when PRIDE enters into the discussion.

Pro 13:10  Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom. 

Pro 13:10  Only by pride comes argument, but with those who take advice is wisdom. 

Let the Spirit have freedom to recover those in error ... then you will spend less time trying to "win an argument" and more time actually seeing the Lord work through situations.

God bless you,

Your brother in the Lord with much agape love,

George

[iamlamad]

On 4/5/2020 at 10:15 AM, The Light said:

If you can give a logical answer to the following questions, I am willing to listen. I'm not talking about something like this: ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation to fit will be proven wrong. You throw this nonsense out there but really have no answers.

1. How do we see the wrath of God coming in Rev 6 and beginning when the 7th seal is open and yet we see wrath also beginning at the end of Rev 14? How could these people be cast into the wrath of God in Rev 14 if the wrath of God is seen coming in Rev 6 and beginning when the 7th seal is opened?

Rev 14

¹⁹ And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

2. In Rev 10 we are told that when the 7th angel begins to sound the mystery of God is finished. We are told in Rev 11 when the 7th angel sounded that the kingdoms of the world are the kingdoms of our Lord. So the question is, how is the mystery of God finished when the 7th angel sounds? Don't the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord when Christ returns?

Rev 10

⁷ But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

You throw this nonsense out there but really have no answers.  Why  would you say such a thing? I try to answer every question asked.  I have great respect for John's chronology. It seems few others do. 

1. How do we see the wrath of God coming in Rev 6 and beginning when the 7th seal is open and yet we see wrath also beginning at the end of Rev 14?  Why do you say it is BEGINNING here in chapter 14? How could it be "beginning" if it has already started as in the DAY of His wrath. If the time period is the DAY of His wrath, does it not make good sense that we would find WRATH inside the DAY of His wrath?  Perhaps your "beginning" is only preconceptions. We find each vial FILLED with His wrath, but again, that does not mean wrath STARTS with the vials. 

In Rev. 11 it says "thy wrath is come." Does that mean wrath STARTS here? No, not at all. Some verses say "your wrath came." It is a Greek Aorist tense verb that in this form shows past action: something started in the past. What I see is that wrath is FIRST MENTIONED as the  Wrath of the Lamb on the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal. As for my axiom, don't throw it out: put in on a back burner, for you will one day know it is truth. 

How could these people be cast into the wrath of God in Rev 14 if the wrath of God is seen coming in Rev 6 and beginning when the 7th seal is opened? It is the DAY of His wrath that started at the 6th seal. So events inside that DAy of His wrath will of course be a part of His wrath. Perhaps I could say it this way: it takes God a long time to get angry, and it will take a long time to appease His anger - especially when men refuse to repent. 

how is the mystery of God finished when the 7th angel sounds? Don't the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord when Christ returns?  This is simple. I just bought a new house. But before I could enter "My" new house, the LEGAL aspect had to be done. I went to a closing and signs reams of papers. Once the LEGAL aspect was finished, I was given the keys. Then, LATER, I used the keys to open MY house.

Here John is told that WHEN the 7th trumpet is sounded, THEN a mystery would be solved or finished. Then in the next chapter the 7th trumpet is sounded and we see a LEGAL transaction take place (Just like the closing on a new house) . The Kingdoms of the world are taken from Satan and given to Jesus LEGALLY in the court room of heaven. It will be a LEGAL closing or transaction. The Kingdoms of the world are now LEGALLY His, but Satan is still at that moment possessing them.  But Michael will soon fix that: Satan will then be cast down, because LEGALLY He lost his legal hold on the planet. (It is my first believe that Adam was given a 6000 year lease, and at the 7th trumpet that lease will expire.)

Does Jesus then come instantly after Satan is cast down? No: John shows us that it will be over 3.5 years later that Jesus comes. WHY? Because in God's plan, God is going to allow the Beast 3.5 years of authority on earth. Understand, it is DELEGATED authority. God is still the exalted One. He is only ALLOWING the Beast to rule for HIS purposes.  

Therefore I find Revelation in perfect order, with no reason to rearrange. Further, I am convinced that any theory that must rearrange to fit will be proven wrong.

Now we will see if you are willing to listen. 

 

[iamlamad]

On 4/5/2020 at 9:11 PM, Da Puppers said:

The abomination of desolation will be seen, not established in the middle of the week.  This will be at the end of the 1290 days, and not at the beginning.  The result will be the utter desolation of Jerusalem.  It will probably only be recognized  by the Jews who are in Jerusalem at that time.  This is why Matthew and Mark has a Jewish audience in mind.  Luke has the Gentiles in view and tells us that WE will see Jerusalem encompassed with armies, as foretold in Isaiah 29.  The 1290 days will begin prior to this time when temple rituals have resumed.  You are right to believe that this will happen soon.  This will mark the beginning of the final 7 years.  With the 2000 year anniversary of the crucifixion looming about 10 years away in 2030, and the fact that his crucifixion took place 4000 years to the year since the creation,  things will be in full swing by the fall of 2022 or spring of 2023.

Be Blessed

The PuP

let's think about this:

John tells us of a 42 month countdown from a point just days before the midpoint to the end of the week. 

|.....................................................................>...|........................42 months.............................|

John tells us of a 1260 day countdown from 3.5 days before the midpoint to the end of the week.

|.....................................................................>...|........................1260 days.............................|

John tells us of a 1260 days time of fleeing starting right after the midpoint.

|........................................................................|.>........................1260 days.............................|

John tells us of 42 months of authority started some little time after the midpoint.

|.........................................................................|...>.....................42 months.............................|

Keeping with the pattern then, a 1290 day period would look like this:

|........................................................................|.........................1290 days.............................|.....| (an extra 30 days past the 1260 days)

Keeping with the pattern then, a 1335 day period would look like this:

|........................................................................|.........................1335 days.............................|.....|.........| (an extra 45 days past the 1290 days)

[iamlamad]

On 4/5/2020 at 9:11 PM, Da Puppers said:

The abomination of desolation will be seen, not established in the middle of the week.  This will be at the end of the 1290 days, and not at the beginning.  The result will be the utter desolation of Jerusalem.  It will probably only be recognized  by the Jews who are in Jerusalem at that time.  This is why Matthew and Mark has a Jewish audience in mind.  Luke has the Gentiles in view and tells us that WE will see Jerusalem encompassed with armies, as foretold in Isaiah 29.  The 1290 days will begin prior to this time when temple rituals have resumed.  You are right to believe that this will happen soon.  This will mark the beginning of the final 7 years.  With the 2000 year anniversary of the crucifixion looming about 10 years away in 2030, and the fact that his crucifixion took place 4000 years to the year since the creation,  things will be in full swing by the fall of 2022 or spring of 2023.

Be Blessed

The PuP

let's think about this:

John tells us of a 42 month countdown from a point just days before the midpoint to the end of the week. 

|.....................................................................>...|........................42 months.............................|

John tells us of a 1260 day countdown from 3.5 days before the midpoint to the end of the week.

|.....................................................................>...|........................1260 days.............................|

John tells us of a 1260 days time of fleeing starting right after the midpoint.

|........................................................................|.>........................1260 days.............................|

John tells us of 42 months of authority started some little time after the midpoint.

|.........................................................................|...>.....................42 months.............................|

Keeping with the pattern then, a 1290 day period would look like this:

|........................................................................|.........................1290 days.............................|.....| (an extra 30 days past the 1260 days)

Keeping with the pattern then, a 1335 day period would look like this:

|........................................................................|.........................1335 days.............................|.....|.........| (an extra 45 days past the 1290 days)

[iamlamad]

On 4/5/2020 at 9:11 PM, Da Puppers said:

The abomination of desolation will be seen, not established in the middle of the week.  This will be at the end of the 1290 days, and not at the beginning.  The result will be the utter desolation of Jerusalem.  It will probably only be recognized  by the Jews who are in Jerusalem at that time.  This is why Matthew and Mark has a Jewish audience in mind.  Luke has the Gentiles in view and tells us that WE will see Jerusalem encompassed with armies, as foretold in Isaiah 29.  The 1290 days will begin prior to this time when temple rituals have resumed.  You are right to believe that this will happen soon.  This will mark the beginning of the final 7 years.  With the 2000 year anniversary of the crucifixion looming about 10 years away in 2030, and the fact that his crucifixion took place 4000 years to the year since the creation,  things will be in full swing by the fall of 2022 or spring of 2023.

Be Blessed

The PuP

let's think about this:

John tells us of a 42 month countdown from a point just days before the midpoint to the end of the week. 

|.....................................................................>...|........................42 months.............................|

John tells us of a 1260 day countdown from 3.5 days before the midpoint to the end of the week.

|.....................................................................>...|........................1260 days.............................|

John tells us of a 1260 days time of fleeing starting right after the midpoint.

|........................................................................|.>........................1260 days.............................|

John tells us of 42 months of authority started some little time after the midpoint.

|.........................................................................|...>.....................42 months.............................|

Keeping with the pattern then, a 1290 day period would look like this:

|........................................................................|.........................1290 days.............................|.....| (an extra 30 days past the 1260 days)

Keeping with the pattern then, a 1335 day period would look like this:

|........................................................................|.........................1335 days.............................|.....|.........| (an extra 45 days past the 1290 days)

[iamlamad]

On 4/5/2020 at 9:11 PM, Da Puppers said:

The abomination of desolation will be seen, not established in the middle of the week.  This will be at the end of the 1290 days, and not at the beginning.  The result will be the utter desolation of Jerusalem.  It will probably only be recognized  by the Jews who are in Jerusalem at that time.  This is why Matthew and Mark has a Jewish audience in mind.  Luke has the Gentiles in view and tells us that WE will see Jerusalem encompassed with armies, as foretold in Isaiah 29.  The 1290 days will begin prior to this time when temple rituals have resumed.  You are right to believe that this will happen soon.  This will mark the beginning of the final 7 years.  With the 2000 year anniversary of the crucifixion looming about 10 years away in 2030, and the fact that his crucifixion took place 4000 years to the year since the creation,  things will be in full swing by the fall of 2022 or spring of 2023.

Be Blessed

The PuP

let's think about this:

John tells us of a 42 month countdown from a point just days before the midpoint to the end of the week. 

|.....................................................................>...|........................42 months.............................|

John tells us of a 1260 day countdown from 3.5 days before the midpoint to the end of the week.

|.....................................................................>...|........................1260 days.............................|

John tells us of a 1260 days time of fleeing starting right after the midpoint.

|........................................................................|.>........................1260 days.............................|

John tells us of 42 months of authority started some little time after the midpoint.

|.........................................................................|...>.....................42 months.............................|

Keeping with the pattern then, a 1290 day period would look like this:

|........................................................................|.........................1290 days.............................|.....| (an extra 30 days past the 1260 days)

Keeping with the pattern then, a 1335 day period would look like this:

|........................................................................|.........................1335 days.............................|.....|.........| (an extra 45 days past the 1290 days)

[iamlamad]

15 hours ago, George said:

But if you will have a greater hope to recover someone in error when allowing the Spirit of God to do the work of restoration!

Learn this passage WELL -- 

Pro 18:19  A brother offended is more unyielding than a strong city, and quarreling is like the bars of a castle. 

How do we teach as a SERVANT of the LORD?

2Ti 2:24  And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 
2Ti 2:25  correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 
2Ti 2:26  and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. 

In a discussion, if you make it PERSONAL -- then it becomes a PERSONAL argument, and this is when PRIDE enters into the discussion.

Pro 13:10  Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom. 

Pro 13:10  Only by pride comes argument, but with those who take advice is wisdom. 

Let the Spirit have freedom to recover those in error ... then you will spend less time trying to "win an argument" and more time actually seeing the Lord work through situations.

God bless you,

Your brother in the Lord with much agape love,

George

You are very gracious!

[iamlamad]

45 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

Midpoint according to whom?   Certainly not John.   Nor according to Daniel's people in his day.   There is no biblical writer to ever base time on the 360 day calendar that you are espousing to come up with 7 years equals 2520 days.  

7 years,  according to the bible can only be 86 or 87 months.   This would be 2540 or 2579 days +/- 1 or 2 days.   The most likely end time scenario will involve the fall feasts month of Tishri, the 7th month.   Even more so,  it is likely to end,  according to Zechariah at the time of  the feast of Tabernacles.  The "midpoint" would be 1270 or 1285 days; and 42 months would be ~1239 days... none of which equals 1260 days.   A 360 day prophetic calendar is just a fabrication of man.

Fabrication- creation of something that previously did not exist. 

Be Blessed 

The Pup 

P.S.  All of the events of Ezra and Nehemiah can be shown to have taken place within 100 years after the destruction of the temple in 586 BC, thereby dismantling the basis of the 30 day prophetic month based on the work of sir Robert Anderson. 

We don't or should't form doctrine on isolated verses; rather we form doctrine from ALL end time verses.  

What you miss and where you miss it: Daniel wrote that the last half of his 70th week would time, times and the dividing of time - or 3.5 years. He wrote this twice. Then John wrote of the very same period of time as 42 months, 1260 days, and time, times and half of time. With SEVEN verses to prove God uses a 360 day year in prophecy SHOULD be enough for anyone. 

Again as for the midpoint, DANIEL wrote of the midpoint (midst) as some event that would stop the daily sacrifices and divide the week into two halves. We know from Paul that the event to stop the sacrifices would be when the man of sin enters the most holy place in the temple and declares HE is the God of the Jews.  That is the abomination Jesus talked about.  He told those in Judea to FLEE when they see it. We find that fleeing in Rev. 12:2. There, my friend, is the midpoint - actually a second or two AFTER the midpoint because of reaction time. If we back up from 12:6 to look for some "event" we get to the 7th trumpet. Perhaps you should look up the Hebrew for the word "midst." 

 

You see, a 360 day year was there all along; you just did not know it.  1260 divided by 42 equals 30 - for a 30 days month. I wonder, did you ever read Sir Robert Anderson's book, "the Coming Prince?"  I leave fabrication to others.

[iamlamad]

45 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

You are assuming that 1260 days equals 42 months, not proving.  This is the same as 7 years equals 2520 days.   This premise comes from SRA's theory of the 173,880 days equals the 483 years from the decree of Artaxerxes, found in Nehemiah until some point in the first advent of Christ.  You are believing a lie when you accept that Artaxerxes ruled in the mid-5th century BC.  The chronology of the Kings of Judah and the high priestly lineage( that runs from Aaron unto Jehozadak as found in 1Chr 6, Ezra 7 and from Jeshua, son of Jehozadak, unto Jaddua as per Nehemiah 12:10,11.) proves that the 32nd year of Artaxerxes was 490 BC.  This makes Anderson's claim of the 173,880 days totally bogus.

Be Blessed

The PuP

Not "assuming;" I am taking John at his word.  Some people think Anderson missed it. I was not alive back then.  Some people think the Artexerxes command was a different year. It does matter WHO issued the command from Persia. In any case, I believe Daniel told the Jews WHEN to expect their Messiah. By the way, do you think SRA was trying to deceive anyone? 

However, there is proof in the bible, so we don't need SRA to know that a prophetic year is 360 days. I have read that was common back then. I guess SRA read Revelation also.  Will you be like the SDA's and insist that the 1260 days in Rev. really means 1260 years? I hope not.

Do you not believe the future 70th week has a midpoint?

Edited April 13, 2020 by iamlamad