How does it start?

[Uriah]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

I'm interested to hear what you see.

Most of it I have said before. For instance there is a defined period of 5 months for the plague of locusts, and more importantly the a/c is captured at the battle of Armageddon when Jesus returns. Obviously his reign of 42 months ends there. But the cataclysmic events in Revelation are very reminiscent of the plagues of the Exodus. This makes me think of the possibility of the judgments of the trumpets and vials beginning at that time-Passover, or at least close enough in that vicinity. 

It turns out that there is a couple of previous markers that would make a credible connection. Such as a five month period that would end on or near Tish b' Av. This is the time annually when Jewish people mourn for the destruction of the Temple which fell twice in history on the same date. Five months before that would take us to about a month before Passover. 1260 days before that would take us to the Feast of Tabernacles 2020. This span of time could be the ministry of the 2 witnesses.

I am pondering how the death of these two men could be the day of the stoning from God from the sky with something looking like a mountain burning with fire. THIS would bring the cataclysms that would culminate with the return of Jesus. 42 months prior to the Tish b' Av date would be the installation of the a/c, lagging behind the arrival of the witnesses  (feast of Tabernacles) by perhaps five months. 

There would then be a period of time, (couple months) until the feast of Tabernacles again when Jews worldwide will come to Israel and at that feast New Jerusalem will arrive.

 

As for the Temple for the Antichrist, no the Jews know of this theory and the former Temple Mount faithful leader quoted Zec.  6:12-13. And they would NEVER allow anyone but the high priest to enter the Holy Place if there were a temple built. I will see if I can provide  more later.

[Keras]

Signposts of the coming Apocalypse:

The Bible does not prophesy the end of the world or of total destruction, but of a whole series of carefully timed events that lead up to the great and glorious Return of Jesus. The final countdown of the end times will take years and before the first prophesied event happens, we are told of a few preliminary things that will set the stage for the political, economic and religious climate that is necessary to trigger the Lord’s action. These preparatory steps seem to be falling into place in rapid succession.

It is humanly impossible to resolve the political situation in the Middle East, many countries have failing economies and in many countries; population has outstripped their resources.

Many people today react negatively to anyone who warns about a coming reset of civilization, even though it is obvious that things cannot continue as they are for much longer. They say it is foolish to worry about what may happen, or even talk about the trends and signs that point toward the end time scenario as portrayed in Scripture.

In Matthew 16:1-4, Jesus sternly rebuked the religious leaders of His day for their failure to discern the signs of His first coming. He was fulfilling the Old Testament prophecies and performing miracles, yet they were blind to it all. Likewise today, many religious leaders are doing the same, blinded to prophecy and to the signs that point to an imminent commencement of God’s program of preparation for the Second coming of Jesus.

God is preparing the world stage for His drama of the ages. When the curtain parts, when the heavens are torn asunder, Isaiah 64:1-2, then those who have failed to understand or even to consider the more than 100 prophesies that clearly tell about the forthcoming fire judgement/punishment, they will be shocked and terrified. .

A judgement by fire will happen next and it will be a testing time for all mankind. 1 Peter 4:12

Do not hope for a rapture from this first event. The prophesies that tell of a ‘meeting in the air’ refer to the visible Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign, which is to come much later

The greatest threat facing the world is a nuclear armed Iran attacking Israel, along with their proxies and all the Islamic peoples.  Psalms 83

Bible prophecy, our sure guide with proven fulfilled predictions, tells us that this war will not happen. Ezekiel 7:14  God’s wrath destroyed the civilization of Noah’s time with a great flood; this time He will use fire to destroy His enemies. The Lord promises to save a remnant of Jews in Jerusalem, Isaiah 31:5 and around the world, all those people who take heed of the warnings to shelter and who call upon His Name for protection, will be kept safe. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, Isaiah 43:2

Do not doubt; events will unfold as the prophets have so graphically prophesied, so long ago. First this terrible judgement by fire, a massive CME will be blasted out from the Lord’s storehouse, the sun. Deut. 32:34-35 Then the world’s survivors will establish a One World Government, but the great promises of God to the Patriarchs and to His righteous people will then be fulfilled, as they gather and settle into the Holy Land.   Zechariah 10:8-10, Romans 9:24-26

                                                                           

[Uriah]

Whoa! Good job K! 

( not sure about the CME though)

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, Uriah said:

Most of it I have said before. For instance there is a defined period of 5 months for the plague of locusts, and more importantly the a/c is captured at the battle of Armageddon when Jesus returns. Obviously his reign of 42 months ends there. But the cataclysmic events in Revelation are very reminiscent of the plagues of the Exodus. This makes me think of the possibility of the judgments of the trumpets and vials beginning at that time-Passover, or at least close enough in that vicinity. 

It turns out that there is a couple of previous markers that would make a credible connection. Such as a five month period that would end on or near Tish b' Av. This is the time annually when Jewish people mourn for the destruction of the Temple which fell twice in history on the same date. Five months before that would take us to about a month before Passover. 1260 days before that would take us to the Feast of Tabernacles 2020. This span of time could be the ministry of the 2 witnesses.

I am pondering how the death of these two men could be the day of the stoning from God from the sky with something looking like a mountain burning with fire. THIS would bring the cataclysms that would culminate with the return of Jesus. 42 months prior to the Tish b' Av date would be the installation of the a/c, lagging behind the arrival of the witnesses  (feast of Tabernacles) by perhaps five months. 

There would then be a period of time, (couple months) until the feast of Tabernacles again when Jews worldwide will come to Israel and at that feast New Jerusalem will arrive.

 

As for the Temple for the Antichrist, no the Jews know of this theory and the former Temple Mount faithful leader quoted Zec.  6:12-13. And they would NEVER allow anyone but the high priest to enter the Holy Place if there were a temple built. I will see if I can provide  more later.

 I see. I struggle with likening the prophecies of Revelation with ancient holidays. The only remaining idea from the deep past is Tabernacles and that is in the reign of Christ here on earth. I can see the import of this and the meaning behind it. It's looks like it is an important representation and reminder for mankind throughout the Millennial Kingdom. 

But the rest of it I can't see. It's not that I don't understand what you say, I do. What I don't see is the correlation. The veil was rent, the Temple destroyed, the old Jewish ways ended. Is it really appropriate to look to the past in this case? 

From what I have read about the end in Rev and Matt, the beast rises first and this is the beginning. The two witnesses appear at the same moment. The ministry of the two witnesses must parallel the time before the beast is given power. The time of the witnesses cannot occur during the time of God's wrath. Neither can it occur once the beast is given power and authority for 42 months. This is because the witnesses are not going to endure the wrath of God and because the beast at some point will overcome and kill the witnesses.

If the wrath of God begins the witnesses cannot fulfill the 42 months. If the time of the witnesses parallels the time of power and authority of the beast that would mean they are only killed by the beast at the very end and their bodies would lie in the streets, and the earth celebrates, for 3 1/2 days past the end. At some point in the reign of the beast wrath begins. While the beast will continue throughout the entire 42 months and his kingdom endures wrath, the witnesses do not endure God's wrath as God never allows His righteous people to be destroyed. And it's not likely the beast will allows the witnesses to remain alive and in opposition to him once he has power.

That pushes the time of the witnesses back a full 42 months and that 42 months is fulfilled before the beast is given power and authority. Therefore, 7 years. 

 

[Uriah]

45 minutes ago, Diaste said:

 I see. I struggle with likening the prophecies of Revelation with ancient holidays. The only remaining idea from the deep past is Tabernacles and that is in the reign of Christ here on earth. I can see the import of this and the meaning behind it. It's looks like it is an important representation and reminder for mankind throughout the Millennial Kingdom. 

But the rest of it I can't see. It's not that I don't understand what you say, I do.

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What I don't see is the correlation.

I am not trying to force a correlation. There are certain Days that are called appointed days. They are in place forever. Also, I cannot pretend that there is no similarity between the Exodus plagues and those in Revelation. So, its not an exact and solid correlation but more of a theme that is hard to miss.

The veil was rent, the Temple destroyed, the old Jewish ways ended.

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Is it really appropriate to look to the past in this case?

 I wonder the same for those who look for a new temple and the re-institution of sacrifices BEFORE Jesus returns.

From what I have read about the end in Rev and Matt,

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the beast rises first and this is the beginning. The two witnesses appear at the same moment. The ministry of the two witnesses must parallel the time before the beast is given power.

I am not sure where it says that, rising and being in power are two different things? I think you said the two 42 month periods make it 7 yrs., but this says they appear at the same moment.

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The time of the witnesses cannot occur during the time of God's wrath. Neither can it occur once the beast is given power and authority for 42 months. This is because the witnesses are not going to endure the wrath of God and because the beast at some point will overcome and kill the witnesses.

As I see it, their deaths bring about the wrath of God nearly immediately.

If the wrath of God begins the witnesses cannot fulfill the 42 months. If the time of the witnesses parallels the time of power and authority of the beast that would mean they are only killed by the beast at the very end and their bodies would lie in the streets, and the earth celebrates, for 3 1/2 days past the end. At some point in the reign of the beast wrath begins. While the beast will continue throughout the entire 42 months and his kingdom endures wrath,

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the witnesses do not endure God's wrath as God never allows His righteous people to be destroyed.

Two things: they will not endure God's wrath (its likely to start the same day). It is not God's wrath that will destroy the witnesses, but it is the rage of Satan. This has been ongoing. 

And it's not likely the beast will allows the witnesses to remain alive and in opposition to him once he has power.

That pushes the time of the witnesses back a full 42 months and that 42 months is fulfilled before the beast is given power and authority. Therefore, 7 years. 

 

To recap, I think the 42 months of the a/c and the 1260 days of the witnesses will take place in this order. The witnesses will appear on the scene somewhere around the feast of Tabernacles and end shortly before Passover 1260 days later. A short time after the witnesses appear (perhaps 5 months) the a/c will will begin his reign until he is seized and thrown into the lake of fire when Jesus returns.

[Diaste]

 

23 hours ago, Uriah said:

I am not trying to force a correlation. There are certain Days that are called appointed days. They are in place forever. Also, I cannot pretend that there is no similarity between the Exodus plagues and those in Revelation. So, its not an exact and solid correlation but more of a theme that is hard to miss.

I agree there are similarities between the plagues of Egypt and the end of the age. What I meant was the correlation between the seals, trumps, etc., and the ancient feasts, celebrations and holy days. I hear it from several people and it's possible it makes sense, but I am not seeing it. When I look at Leviticus I see a period of one year for all the special days. 

 

23 hours ago, Uriah said:

I am not sure where it says that, rising and being in power are two different things? I think you said the two 42 month periods make it 7 yrs., but this says they appear at the same moment.

Yes. I think that is the case. At some point the beast will rise and be a major influence but this is before he is given power and authority for 42 months. 

1) The beast will have power until Jesus returns.

2) The beast endures the wrath of God, Rev 16:10, and this wrath happens during the 42 months of the beast's reign.

3) The witnesses being of God, and His faithful servants, will not endure the wrath of God, yet their allotted time is 42 months.

This should then be seen as two 42 month spans that either do not overlap or overlap for a short time only. Speculation based on biblical history and ancient prophecy leads me to think the beast appears on the scene at some point and is a major influence on Israel. He hides his agenda of death and destruction in the beginning and woos Israel into thinking he is the answer. It's at this point the witnesses appear to oppose the beast for 42 months, before he is fully revealed for what he truly is, 42 months later, per 2 Thess 2.

The witnesses are killed by the beast per Rev 11. Before that they pummel the earth and kill their enemies for the length of their ministry. It's so bad that when they are killed the whole earth celebrates for 3.5 days. I'm convinced this ministry cannot happen after the beast is given authority, nor can it happen during God's wrath.  I don't think this, " those who dwell on the earth will gloat over them, and will celebrate and send one another gifts" can occur during the wrath of God nor after the revealing of the beast as depicted in 2 Thess 2.

The celebration won't happen during God's wrath for obvious reasons, and when the beast is given, "authority to act for 42 months."

He will also be, "given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. " This is when the witnesses have finished their time and the beast kills them. Which I'm convinced it as the revealing as Paul said. That means there are 42 months before and 42 months after. Give or take with a possible short amount of overlap.

 

23 hours ago, Uriah said:

A short time after the witnesses appear (perhaps 5 months) the a/c will will begin his reign until he is seized and thrown into the lake of fire when Jesus returns.

I can agree here as long as the witnesses time does not run past the beginning of wrath. 

On 6/6/2020 at 5:17 AM, Uriah said:

Two things: they will not endure God's wrath (its likely to start the same day). It is not God's wrath that will destroy the witnesses, but it is the rage of Satan. This has been ongoing. 

I can see that. But that would stretch the 42 months out. I could be wrong but if the three unclean spirits go to gather the armies of the earth the 6th bowl of wrath is going to take some time to fulfill. How long I don't know. A year to gather all the armies of the earth in one spot? Maybe these spirits have come out of the Triune of Terror before the 6th bowl and have been working their black magic for some time. It looks like they appear only as the 6th bowl is poured out. Two things happen, the way is dried up and the spirits emerge. If the way is dried up then columns of men and machinery are on the march. Even if none were on foot it's going to take a few months for all of them to gather and surround Israel. 

 

[Uriah]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

We are actually pretty close in these matters.

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I agree there are similarities between the plagues of Egypt and the end of the age. What I meant was the correlation between the seals, trumps, etc., and the ancient feasts, celebrations and holy days. I hear it from several people and it's possible it makes sense, but I am not seeing it. When I look at Leviticus I see a period of one year for all the special days. 

 I am looking as God is doing a new thing! - Using those appointed days in one year (Passover thru Tabernacles at least) to begin His new agenda.   

Yes. I think that is the case. At some point the beast will rise and be a major influence but this is before he is given power and authority for 42 months. 

1) The beast will have power until Jesus returns.

2) The beast endures the wrath of God, Rev 16:10, and this wrath happens during the 42 months of the beast's reign.

3) The witnesses being of God, and His faithful servants, will not endure the wrath of God, yet their allotted time is 42 months.

Quote

This should then be seen as two 42 month spans that either do not overlap or overlap for a short time only.

This identifies where we differ. I am looking at the overlap as almost matching, only misaligned by about 5 months.

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Speculation based on biblical history and ancient prophecy leads me to think the beast appears on the scene at some point and is a major influence on Israel

Orrrr, the major influence is the imposition of a Palestinian state and the occupation and enforcement of "peace". 

. He hides his agenda of death and destruction in the beginning and woos Israel into thinking he is the answer. It's at this point the witnesses appear to oppose the beast for 42 months, before he is fully revealed for what he truly is, 42 months later, per 2 Thess 2.

The witnesses are killed by the beast per Rev 11. Before that they pummel the earth and kill their enemies for the length of their ministry. It's so bad that when they are killed the whole earth celebrates for 3.5 days. I'm convinced this ministry cannot happen after the beast is given authority, nor can it happen during God's wrath.  I don't think this, " those who dwell on the earth will gloat over them, and will celebrate and send one another gifts" can occur during the wrath of God nor after the revealing of the beast as depicted in 2 Thess 2.

Quote

The celebration won't happen during God's wrath for obvious reasons, and when the beast is given, "authority to act for 42 months."

Yes and this proves the wrath has not begun due to the fact their technology is still working at that time. This is why I say the Rev 8 asteroid/ meteors could begin on the day the witnesses are raised!

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He will also be, "given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. " This is when the witnesses have finished their time and the beast kills them. Which I'm convinced it as the revealing as Paul said. That means there are 42 months before and 42 months after. Give or take with a possible short amount of overlap.

IMO he can be doing this during the time he is reigning (increasing his reign) and the witnesses are present.

I can agree here as long as the witnesses time does not run past the beginning of wrath. 

I can see that. But that would stretch the 42 months out. I could be wrong but if the three unclean spirits go to gather the armies of the earth the 6th bowl of wrath is going to take some time to fulfill. How long I don't know. A year to gather all the armies of the earth in one spot? Maybe these spirits have come out of the Triune of Terror before the 6th bowl and have been working their black magic for some time. It looks like they appear only as the 6th bowl is poured out. Two things happen, the way is dried up and the spirits emerge. If the way is dried up then columns of men and machinery are on the march. Even if none were on foot it's going to take a few months for all of them to gather and surround Israel. 

Even this could be underway as the witnesses' ministry is nearing its end. the vast majority of the armies that will be involved in attacking Israel are in the middle east already.

 

 

I am taking a guess that your views are largely due to the 70th week teaching. That it hasn't been fulfilled yet and there must be 7 yrs.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Uriah
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[WilliamL]

On 6/1/2020 at 8:42 PM, Uriah said:

HOW will it begin? What scenario or set of events/circumstances will be upon the opening of it?

We had the same basic question some time back in the Prophecy Club. Here was the question, with my answer following:

On 6/30/2018 at 5:28 PM, Last Daze said:

...what do you see as the next prophetic event that can be tied directly to a specific prophecy?

Daniel 11:40 “At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through. 41 He shall also enter the Glorious Land... [etc.]

leading up to:

11:45 “And he shall plant the tents of his pavilion between the seas at the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him.

-- which is the Abomination of Desolation, or just before it. Immediately leading to:

12:1 At that time ... there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation...

-- which is the Great Tribulation:

Matt 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

These are the basics. My understanding is that the 1290 days begins when the King of the N0rth "enters the Glorious Land, and many are enfeebled/overthrown" (Dan. 11:42). This will be the time when "the daily/continual service [will be] taken away" (12:11), which is the event which begins the 1290 days; which period is concluded with "the placing of an abomination of desolation."

For more on the 1290, 1335, and 1260 days, see the following two blogs:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1440-the-1290-and-1335-days-of-daniel-1211-12/

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1449-the-1260-days/

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by WilliamL
added last paragraph

[Uriah]

6 hours ago, WilliamL said:

We had the same basic question some time back in the Prophecy Club. Here was the question, with my answer following:

Daniel 11:40 “At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through. 41 He shall also enter the Glorious Land... [etc.]

leading up to:

11:45 “And he shall plant the tents of his pavilion between the seas at the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him.

-- which is the Abomination of Desolation, or just before it. Immediately leading to:

12:1 At that time ... there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation...

-- which is the Great Tribulation:

Matt 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

These are the basics. My understanding is that the 1290 days begins when the King of the N0rth "enters the Glorious Land, and many are enfeebled/overthrown" (Dan. 11:42). This will be the time when "the daily/continual service [will be] taken away" (12:11), which is the event which begins the 1290 days; which period is concluded with "the placing of an abomination of desolation."

For more on the 1290, 1335, and 1260 days, see the following two blogs:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1440-the-1290-and-1335-days-of-daniel-1211-12/

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1449-the-1260-days/

 

Dan 11:2- And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.

This shows the subject(s) of the chapter. Weren't these things played out already? I doubt a Greek or Persian king will arise and turn into the a/c and impose a mark etc. Look through the chapter and see the word "he" repeated. It goes all the way down referring to an ancient king.

The reason people call this a passage about the a/c is because of certain sentences or portions thereof. It is misconceived because of similar sounding words or phrases. Like, "at the time of the end...", meaning, "of this period" or, "of this vision..." And especially ch. 12:1- "At that time". Because of the uniqueness of the word(ing) used, would be best kept short in an explanation rendered, "And at the time that..." or, "And at that time that...". 

So, the narrative in the message from the angel is allowed to move on to other matters of importance when finished with the first. We must adjust OUR way of hearing the message from the scripture rather than look at it only as we have developed our habits of looking at things.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Uriah
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[WilliamL]

On 6/10/2020 at 7:11 PM, Uriah said:

The reason people call this a passage about the a/c is because of certain sentences or portions thereof. It is misconceived because of similar sounding words or phrases. Like, "at the time of the end...", meaning, "of this period" or, "of this vision..." And especially ch. 12:1- "At that time". Because of the uniqueness of the word(ing) used, would be best kept short in an explanation rendered, "And at the time that..." or, "And at that time that...". 

It is hard to see the misconception of the words, "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Dan. 12:1-2

If you don't think this passage, which begins its narrative at 11:40, is End Times, then you probably shouldn't be into prophecy at all.