I was wrong

[TheBlade]

"That's my point, the pre-trib doctrine teaches the end time as a 7 year period complete with charts and diagrams of how the "tribulation period" is going to be. Even though no Christians are on Earth to witness the events. "

A thief comes to steal. Christ is no thief. So why would even use that word? Well when He comes.. He takes something that is His and they ever knew it saw it. Now.. will every believer go? No.. see He will never make  you do anything you don't want nor believe in. Doubt will always stop God. So we see why there will be come believers here. You know.. who taught Paul? So Paul saw/new about this Caught up and even said WE which remain. Someone told them they missed Christ coming to get them. Talk about the 2nd coming great. But Christ looked them in the eyes and said.. I am going to come back and get you so where I am you will be.

So.. ALL of us can pray and ask Him.. so caught is happening when? HE will never tell you. I read Rev 1-3 and the what happens to John? What does John here? Then.. hmm why can't I find the Church? Thats on the earth still?

To step out side a bit. I do read how some believe the Church goes up and then Gods now deals with Israel as if time was some how stopped with grace and then started again and now its all about Israel. Well those 7 years .. the time they still owe God. The Antichrist is not out to get Christians.. but Israel. And since Christ left.. the two that come back are from the OT, no one from the NT. Those two are preaching and doing things Israel once saw in the OT..that we have never seen. The 144k are preaching. An angel from heaven is preaching. The Church that some say is still here, all those MILLIONS are doing what?.. nothing..not a word.

Hmm so He is coming to get His bride.. just like an old Jewish wedding. So I am ready NOW! I will not miss Him. And I believe this because I read it from the bible. I have heard a brother .. so wise yet.. say "you would never come away with pre trib from just reading the bible". Not sure why he can even say that. Yet.. thats how I got it. And he still says that..sad for its not true.

Jesus told you He will come back and get you so where He is you will be. You can try to pray and ask.. they have been since He left and He has told no one. So..why not just live in the moment He gave you and live expect Him now? Or doubt.. and see where that and your personal belief gets you

[wingnut-]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't see this army as a lead into to anything. It looks to me like this army is on the way to meet the Lord for the final battle in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, per Ezekiel 38.

 

I agree with everything you said, including the timing of this particular event not occurring until the very end.

 

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

I have heard this a few times and still have not been convinced it points to Pergamum as the physical seat of power. I'm more of the mind it's symbolic of the idolatry and false gods rife in ancient Pergamum. Pergamum is a ruin today. I had hoped to find it a bustling city but all it is rocks on hill outside the city of Bergama. Maybe that doesn't mean anything according to the prophecy but I would think if Satan dwells there physically it would still exist. So my conclusion is it's where evil is practiced that Satan rules in the spirit of man.

 

I agree if we limit this to the ancient city specifically, but keep in mind that Pergamum was more than just a city, it was a region, and one of the larger regions of Turkey at that time which contained all 7 of the churches that John wrote to.  Not sure if this will work, but I found some maps that I will attempt to post to show you what I mean.  They aren't the greatest maps, but the best I could manage on the computer.  The first one gives you an idea of the region of Pergamum, the second one will show the location of the churches and also includes Patmos.

 

Region

 

churches

 

 

 

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

I agree with everything you said, including the timing of this particular event not occurring until the very end.

I agree if we limit this to the ancient city specifically, but keep in mind that Pergamum was more than just a city, it was a region, and one of the larger regions of Turkey at that time which contained all 7 of the churches that John wrote to.  Not sure if this will work, but I found some maps that I will attempt to post to show you what I mean.  They aren't the greatest maps, but the best I could manage on the computer.  The first one gives you an idea of the region of Pergamum, the second one will show the location of the churches and also includes Patmos.

Region

churches

Interesting maps. I had no idea. If I remember I'll look at this a little deeper. 

[wingnut-]

On 6/14/2020 at 11:42 PM, TheBlade said:

A thief comes to steal. Christ is no thief. So why would even use that word?

 

The symbol of the thief is first given to us by Jesus Himself when He addresses the disciples on the Mt. of Olives.

 

Matthew 24:42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

 

The symbol of the thief is incorporated in the writings of the apostles Paul, Peter, and John in later prophetic passages.

 

On 6/14/2020 at 11:42 PM, TheBlade said:

will every believer go? No.. see He will never make  you do anything you don't want nor believe in.

 

This is what is known as a scare tactic, but it is flawed at its foundation when we apply scripture.  Not believing a doctrine of men, is not a reflection on a persons faith in Jesus Christ.  The only requirement for eternal life is to be born again, sealed by the Holy Spirit.  A person either is, or is not, and our acceptance to eternal life will be determined on that basis alone, not doctrinal differences.

 

II Corinthians 5:5  He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

 

On 6/14/2020 at 11:42 PM, TheBlade said:

I read Rev 1-3 and the what happens to John? What does John here? Then.. hmm why can't I find the Church? Thats on the earth still?

 

Maybe you weren't looking in the right place?

 

Revelation 13:5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear:

10 If anyone is to be taken captive,
    to captivity he goes;
if anyone is to be slain with the sword,
    with the sword must he be slain.

Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.

 

Here we see that believers (saints) will be under great duress from the beast for the entirety of his 3 1/2 year reign.  Some will be killed, and some will be taken captive.

 

On 6/14/2020 at 11:42 PM, TheBlade said:

The Church that some say is still here, all those MILLIONS are doing what?.. nothing..not a word.

 

They are being killed or imprisoned, as shown in the above passage from Revelation 13.

 

On 6/14/2020 at 11:42 PM, TheBlade said:

The 144k are preaching.

 

Absolutely not true, not a single word about them preaching in scripture.

 

 

[Diaste]

On 6/14/2020 at 9:42 PM, TheBlade said:

A thief comes to steal. Christ is no thief. So why would even use that word? Well when He comes.. He takes something that is His and they ever knew it saw it.

The idea of coming like a thief is the unexpected moment not stealing. "Be ready, be alert, be waiting" is the prescription to avoid being taken by surprise. That's the teaching, being prepared and watchful.

On 6/14/2020 at 9:42 PM, TheBlade said:

so caught is happening when? HE will never tell you.

But he did. 2 Thess 2:1-8 and Matt 24:30-31. After the revealing of the beast, after the sign of the coming of the Son of man, and after great tribulation. A theme common to the whole of the Revelation.

On 6/14/2020 at 9:42 PM, TheBlade said:

Hmm so He is coming to get His bride.. just like an old Jewish wedding.

Modern Pretrib appropriates everything Jewish in the quest to legitimize the doctrine. Pretrib uses Lev 23 to show timing and prove two gatherings, relies on Talmudic writing from time to time, and here even grabs the Jewish wedding tradition and uses it as their own. But then when it comes to the uncomfortable parts Pretrib distances their dogma from the Jews like the Jews are the weird cousin no one wants to associate with, per the following:

On 6/14/2020 at 9:42 PM, TheBlade said:

The Antichrist is not out to get Christians.. but Israel.

Why? 

[Zemke]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

The idea of coming like a thief is the unexpected moment not stealing. "Be ready, be alert, be waiting" is the prescription to avoid being taken by surprise. That's the teaching, being prepared and watchful.

But he did. 2 Thess 2:1-8 and Matt 24:30-31. After the revealing of the beast, after the sign of the coming of the Son of man, and after great tribulation. A theme common to the whole of the Revelation.

Modern Pretrib appropriates everything Jewish in the quest to legitimize the doctrine. Pretrib uses Lev 23 to show timing and prove two gatherings, relies on Talmudic writing from time to time, and here even grabs the Jewish wedding tradition and uses it as their own. But then when it comes to the uncomfortable parts Pretrib distances their dogma from the Jews like the Jews are the weird cousin no one wants to associate with, per the following:

Why? 

I do agree with you on the odd selectivity of the Jewish relationship. The new covenant was made with the House of Israel and the House of Juda. The former rain was on the Jews and most likely the latter rain also will be on the Jews. In between it rains here a little and there a little. Being the time of the Gentiles.

As Paul said, "We should not boast". The church is going to go through, and in many places is, a refining that will provoke the Jews to Jealousy. The west is approaching its' day. Ever listen to people who have been imprisoned and tortured for their faith? They provoke us to jealousy because they have a relationship with Jesus that we who are comfortable lack.

 But at some point there is a rescue as stated in Daniel 12 and I think the terminology of "like a thief" does imply a snatching, a theft of sorts. Not a surprise to believers but a very timely theft, thieving from "The Thief" himself, Lucifer, in his dragon role, the persecutor. He is the thief and Jesus is going to come like a thief and harpazo those who are alive and remain. A gambit. But to those who have ears to hear it will not be a surprise at all. And it will not be secret as pre-trib prescribes. The world will see. 

Micah 7:9b-10

He will bring me out to the light, and I will see His righteousness. Then my enemy will see, and shame will cover her who said to me, "Where is the Lord your God?" My eyes will look on her; At that time she will be trampled down like mire in the streets.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Zemke

[Revelation Man]

On 6/8/2020 at 8:25 AM, ENOCH2010 said:

What event needs to happen for the pre-tribbers to say, wow I was wrong, there will be no pre-trib rapture. 

Why worry about the impossible ? Just get ready to fly in the Spirit, don't be part of the Left Behind Series. 

[RonaldBruno]

I frankly would prefer the Pre-Trib rapture, but I think we have to go through part of it - to the Seventh Trumpet. I think we are in the Beginning of Sorrows with the pestilence upon us. But the locusts in Africa will create a famine that will kill much more. When the events start to mount, one catastrophe after another, and we start seeing them literally in scripture _ the Seal events and Trumpet events _  where billions die _  then the Pre-Tribbers will have to come to grips with themselves.

Right now they are denying that we are in the beginning of the Great Tribulation. I would call this a very stressful time like no other, but it will increase. It's as if the world didn't stop spinning, but it slowed down. A big scare came over us. Immediately people stopped doing the non-essentials, separated, put on masks and washed there hands vigorously. We raided the grocery stores to make sure we were covered. And what was one of the most important activity that was stopped? Church congregation. It was a brilliant way to separate us, says Satan to Screwtape - one of his best achievements. "Yes Satan, says Screwtape, we are conditioning them right now to willingly accept the mark later -- they'll get in line for it. Fear is our motivating force."

God says fear not. Fear is actually the opposite of Faith. So Satan is on the move and behind this. But the Pre-Tribbers will say, "Nope, not yet, the Temple has to be built first and then the AOD and then ...

[Last Daze]

12 minutes ago, RonaldBruno said:

God says fear not. Fear is actually the opposite of Faith. So Satan is on the move and behind this. But the Pre-Tribbers will say, "Nope, not yet, the Temple has to be built first and then the AOD and then ...

Hopefully everyone's understanding is still pliable.  I think it depends on how much pride has been mixed in.  Pride hardens the heart quickly.