7 year tribulation

[JoeCanada]

 

On 8/18/2020 at 8:31 AM, Spock said:

Nicely written Joe,

Please explain this one week part. Thanks.

“And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week"

Hi Spock...

Let's first consider what "covenant" means. 

Is it a covenant under law or religion?

If it's under law...." A covenant, in its most general sense and historical sense, is a solemn promise to engage in or refrain from a specified action."

If it's under religion...."In religion, a covenant is a formal alliance or agreement made by God with a religious community or with humanity in general. The concept, central to the Abrahamic religions, is derived from the biblical covenants, notably from the Abrahamic covenant.

²⁴ “Seventy ^[a]weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to ^[b]finish the transgression, to ^[c]make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and ^[d]prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. ²⁵ So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a ^[e]decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until ^[f]Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with ^[g]plaza and moat, even in times of distress. ²⁶ Then after the sixty-two weeks the ^[h]Messiah will be cut off and have ^[i]nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And ^[j]its end will come with a flood; even to the end ^[k]there will be war; desolations are determined. ²⁷ And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of ^[l]abominations will come one who ^[m]makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who ^[n]makes desolate.”

It seems like it's a covenant under "religion"

The only covenant that can be strengthened....firmed up.... is the New Covenant, because the New Covenant involves an infilling of the Holy Spirit. So, this aspect can definitely be strengthened. 

Might the Holy Spirit lavish gifts upon believers during the 70th week, to assist them in their mission to overcome the evil one? These gifts might include such things as......... the power of healing....or the gift of tongues....or the raising of the dead....or the casting out of demons? Scripture tells us that believers are told ...."not to worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say, for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say".....Luke 12: 11-12

We can see from Scripture that demonic activity will increase during the 70th week....exponentially so.

Doesn't it seem just as likely that God will ramp up on the supernatural gifts available to believers....in an Acts 2 sort of manner.....in order to counter act this activity?.........................Highly likely!

I don't believe that the "church" will be raptured out of here before the 70th week. Why would God remove the only witness that He can use before the end?

Yes, there will be "the two witnesses" in Jerusalem. But how will the world benefit from their testimony?...If the internet is censored?...If the news is censored?....

Maybe the "two witnesses " testimony will only be heard in Israel?.....I don't know....maybe.

But the millions of believers all over the world could certainly "witness  ..... and have the testimony of  Jesus".....don't you think?

 

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

On 8/23/2020 at 10:39 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Diaste.

This is a poor translation of Daniel 9. First, there's no "of the Temple" in the Hebrew; that has been SUPPLIED by over-zealous, fixers-of-the-text wanna-be's! The Hebrew word "knaf" does mean a "wing," but it is a "SPREAD-OUT wing," an "EXTENDED wing," and like the feathers in such a wing, the text is talking about the "radiating outward" or "spreading" of the detestable things. This why the translators of the KJV chose the words "overspreading of abominations." And, the Hebrew word, "shiqquwtsiym," translated "abominations" IS plural, btw! Also, the Hebrew doesn't say that determined is poured upon the "desolator"; it's poured upon the "DESOLATE," those who were left in such a condition by Yeshua`!

Actually it's not. The word form here for desolate in 9:27 denotes the one who is the cause: "׳שׁ as noun horror-causer, appaller, Daniel 9:27." You and others affix the incorrect usage by the wrong form.

On 8/23/2020 at 10:39 PM, Retrobyter said:

YES, He DID! Who determines when a slaughter becomes a sacrifice? Wouldn't that be the One to whom the sacrifice was being made? This is the reason for pointing out Hebrews 10:8-18! When Yeshua` made the ULTIMATE Sacrifice for all human beings everywhere, and at any time in human history, that was the END of the picture, the real thing taking its place!

THIS was why Yeshua` spoke the word translated as "It is finished." "Tetelestai" in Greek was always put on bills that were paid off. They were marked "Paid in full" by that ONE word! 

It's a passionate argument to be sure but not a very strong one.

"...and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease".

First we would have to determine what week and then find the acts that designated the middle of that week, and that would have to witnessed and recorded as unequivocal or the prophecy would not have come to pass. Second, it's not said the spiritual meaning and significance of the the type and shadow of the sacrifice and the oblation would cease. That is your argument and it's not implied here. This is clearly the physical act of ritual and liturgy aside from the spiritual and eternal truth of the once for all atonement of Christ. 

 

On 8/23/2020 at 10:39 PM, Retrobyter said:

 

When Yeshua` pronounced the Jews of Jerusalem "desolate" (Matthew 23:38), the clock started ticking. Forty years later, in 70 A.D., the Temple was destroyed and the Diaspora began. This WAS prophesied in Matthew 24:15. Technically, let's get the order staight: It was the abominations (Matthew 23:1-37) that caused the Messiah to make them "DESOLATE" (Matthew 23:38, the fulfillment of Daniel 9:27b), but it was the desolation - the emptying of the Temple - that was an abomination to the Jews, and the signal to God's faithful to head for the hills (Matthew 24:15-16)!

No, that determined - that decided against them - was poured out upon the "DESOLATE!" Those who were MADE DESOLATE by the Messiah in Matthew 23:38, the JEWS!

That's all well and good but none of that shows the prophecy has come to pass, it's just a belief and a hope.

We are told by Jesus to look to Daniel for the truth of the A of D. This particular A of D as spoken of Jesus and recorded in Matt and Mark is associated with the end of the age near to the time when Jesus will return. This A of D as foretold must come to pass near to GT and the return of Christ; and all witnessed by the terminal generation. Didn't happen yet. 

[Diaste]

On 8/23/2020 at 9:35 PM, Retrobyter said:

 

Weren't you following along?

Based upon the squeeze play of the positive conclusion that "Messiah" in verse 26 MUST be the subject of the verbs in verse 27 and the negative conclusion that "the prince that shall come" or rather "a prince the comer" in verse 26 CANNOT be the subject of the verbs in verse 27, then "Messiah" IS the subject of the verbs in verse 27.

Seriously...I can just hear the dialogue after the Olivet discourse.

Luke: Daniel said "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week" What's the antecedent?

John: Yeah, you can't have the antecedent in a prepositional phrase.

Luke: What he said.

Matthew: So are you going to destroy the Temple?

Mark: Yeah, it sounds like you are making a 7 year agreement.

Matthew: And like, your the prince of some other people?

Luke: Wait, you are going to destroy the Temple?

Jesus: (I need different disciples.)

On 8/23/2020 at 9:35 PM, Retrobyter said:

Then, understanding that the covenant which the Messiah confirmed (by submitting to being baptized) was the DAVIDIC Covenant of 2 Samuel 7:11-16 and 1 Chronicles 17:10-14 (supported by God His Father responding audibly with "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased" [Matthew 3:17], partially fulfilling the prophecy associated with that Covenant, namely, "I will be his father, and he shall be my son." [2 Samuel 7:14; 1 Chronicles 17:13]), then we understand that this Covenant is all about David's Seed (Yeshua` the Messiah) becoming a King in like manner to David himself.

Since David reigned over His own tribe, Yhudah or "Judah," for 7 years (2 Samuel 2:1-4; 1 Kings 2:11; 1 Chronicles 29:27) prior to becoming King of all Israel (2 Samuel 5:1-3; 1 Chronicles 11:1-3), then His Seed should also reign over His own tribe, Yhudah, the "Jews" for 7 years prior to becoming King of Israel. Indeed, Yeshua` was NAMED "King of the Jews" by the Magi shortly after His birth (Matthew 2:2)! Even the superscription on the portion of His cross over His head contained the same words: "This is Jesus (Yeshua`), King of the Jews" (Matthew 27:37). However, the public offer of the Kingdom to the Jews was rejected, Yeshua` Himself being rejected as their King, and He was only able to offer the Kingdom for 3.5 years before they rejected Him and crucified Him! Prior to the crucifixion, Yeshua` left THEM "desolate" in Matthew 23:38, and 3.5 years is half of the expected 7-year reign. Since He was crucified immediately after leaving them "desolate," this corresponds to the Messiah being "cut off" in Daniel 9:26. So, specifically, the "AFTER (7 Sevens +) 62 Sevens (= 69 Sevens) shall Messiah be cut off" refers to half-way through the last Seven, when He is ACTUALLY "cut off."

And you have no evidence, just opinion. In all your logic in the above it is only your opinion that "He was only able to offer the Kingdom for 3.5 years before they rejected Him and crucified Him" correlates to the middle of the week from Daniel 9. It's as farfetched as anything I have seen, and remember I have been in this forum for some time. 

"Since He was crucified immediately after leaving them "desolate,"" You would have to provide some direct evidence for this for it to be true. Was it the next hour? The next day? A week later? Where is the statement Jesus was crucified immediately following "Behold, your house is left to you desolate."?

 

 

On 8/23/2020 at 9:35 PM, Retrobyter said:

No. "Adding to the Scriptures" implies that what is added stems from one's own opinions or theological position.

When one takes all the evidence and comes to a conclusion based upon that evidence, one has not added a thing that isn't already there! One must just be sure of the evidence prior to making one's conclusions. After all, a conclusion made upon a poor set of evidence is just as bad as forming a conclusion based upon one's opinions.

Using what I have shown in the post above, let's take the MAJOR points:

A(---------Z?------->

and the MINOR points WITHIN the MAJOR points:

<--a---c---b---Z]: Z is 1/2 of the 70th Seven

and combine them:

A(---a---c---b---Z]: Z is 1/2 of the 70th Seven

What we can read from this combination is, A (the end of the 69 weeks) comes before a (confirming the covenant with many for 1 Seven) which comes before c (for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate) which comes before b (in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease) which comes before or ON Z (which is 1/2 of the 70th Seven).

Then, one can add the Scripture verses that mark the fulfillment of each:

A(---a---c---b---Z]: Z is 1/2 of the 70th Seven
|  |      |       |       |       |
|  |      |       |       |       +--Matthew 27:50-51; John 19:30b
|  |      |       |       +------John 19:30a; Hebrews 10:8-18
|  |      |       +----------Matthew 23:1-38
|  |      +--------------Matthew 3:16-17
|  +-----------------Luke 16:16b
+-------------------Luke 16:16a

Again, hope this helps.

Well that's just subjective and arbitrary. When did I agree to what constitutes major and minor points? Your approach is incorrect. This expedition to truth is a mining operation not mathematical equations. I reject your approach and conclusions as it's not based on solid detective work but on variables. 

[Spock]

14 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 

Hi Spock...

Let's first consider what "covenant" means. 

Is it a covenant under law or religion?

If it's under law...." A covenant, in its most general sense and historical sense, is a solemn promise to engage in or refrain from a specified action."

If it's under religion...."In religion, a covenant is a formal alliance or agreement made by God with a religious community or with humanity in general. The concept, central to the Abrahamic religions, is derived from the biblical covenants, notably from the Abrahamic covenant.

²⁴ “Seventy ^[a]weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to ^[b]finish the transgression, to ^[c]make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and ^[d]prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. ²⁵ So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a ^[e]decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until ^[f]Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with ^[g]plaza and moat, even in times of distress. ²⁶ Then after the sixty-two weeks the ^[h]Messiah will be cut off and have ^[i]nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And ^[j]its end will come with a flood; even to the end ^[k]there will be war; desolations are determined. ²⁷ And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of ^[l]abominations will come one who ^[m]makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who ^[n]makes desolate.”

It seems like it's a covenant under "religion"

The only covenant that can be strengthened....firmed up.... is the New Covenant, because the New Covenant involves an infilling of the Holy Spirit. So, this aspect can definitely be strengthened. 

Might the Holy Spirit lavish gifts upon believers during the 70th week, to assist them in their mission to overcome the evil one? These gifts might include such things as......... the power of healing....or the gift of tongues....or the raising of the dead....or the casting out of demons? Scripture tells us that believers are told ...."not to worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say, for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say".....Luke 12: 11-12

We can see from Scripture that demonic activity will increase during the 70th week....exponentially so.

Doesn't it seem just as likely that God will ramp up on the supernatural gifts available to believers....in an Acts 2 sort of manner.....in order to counter act this activity?.........................Highly likely!

I don't believe that the "church" will be raptured out of here before the 70th week. Why would God remove the only witness that He can use before the end?

Yes, there will be "the two witnesses" in Jerusalem. But how will the world benefit from their testimony?...If the internet is censored?...If the news is censored?....

Maybe the "two witnesses " testimony will only be heard in Israel?.....I don't know....maybe.

But the millions of believers all over the world could certainly "witness  ..... and have the testimony of  Jesus".....don't you think?

 

 

 

 

 

Joe,

you still didn’t answer my very simple question....in fact no one has.....Charlie, retrobyter, none of the its all about Jesus guys .....have offered any answer to what the 7 year covenant means.  And Daniel is very very clear....it was a covenant for one week....seven years.......  Well, I take that back.....Charlie, to his credit did answer it when he said, “I got nothing!”  

I expected one of the other guys not named Charlie to at least try Some magic.....like maybe go into the Hebrew and pull out some rabbit out your hat to at least have some explanation. You do realize no answer means GAME OVER.....time to trash this agenda and go find the truth. 
 

So, one last time....what does Daniel mean when he says, “he will confirm a covenant with the many FOR ONE WEEK.”? 
 

Who confirmed a covenant for one week? This  means......

[Charlie744]

Very nice!

[Charlie744]

That was a “very nice” .

[JoeCanada]

3 hours ago, Spock said:

Joe,

you still didn’t answer my very simple question....in fact no one has.....Charlie, retrobyter, none of the its all about Jesus guys .....have offered any answer to what the 7 year covenant means.  And Daniel is very very clear....it was a covenant for one week....seven years.......  Well, I take that back.....Charlie, to his credit did answer it when he said, “I got nothing!”  

I expected one of the other guys not named Charlie to at least try Some magic.....like maybe go into the Hebrew and pull out some rabbit out your hat to at least have some explanation. You do realize no answer means GAME OVER.....time to trash this agenda and go find the truth. 
 

So, one last time....what does Daniel mean when he says, “he will confirm a covenant with the many FOR ONE WEEK.”? 
 

Who confirmed a covenant for one week? This  means......

Spock....

I thought that I DID answer the question both times. So, I will try once more.....in plain English.

It is Jesus who confirms a covenant with the many for one week......Jesus will pour out the Holy Spirit on believers ....this is the strengthening of the covenant, the New Covenant.

Yes, believers receive the Holy Spirit when they come to Jesus in the new birth. But the Holy Spirit just might strengthen believers during the final 70th week. And why not....demons will be having a field day with deception and all sorts of displays after the workings of Satan. 

Is this the answer you are looking for....maybe?

[WilliamL]

3 hours ago, Spock said:

So, one last time....what does Daniel mean when he says, “he will confirm a covenant with the many FOR ONE WEEK.”?

Who confirmed a covenant for one week? This  means......

Which just goes to shows ya that you should spend more time reading my blogs!

Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 6: Do Verses 26b-27 Prophesy Future Events?

Daniel 9:26b “…and people of a leader/commander, the one coming in, he shall cause to destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end shall be with a flood of attackers, and unto an end of battle/warfare, desolations being decreed. 27 And he shall cause to prevail/confirm (or, shall make strong) a covenant for the multitude one week; and in the midst/middle of the week, he shall cause to cease blood sacrifice and offering. And upon/over a wing/corner shall be abominations/idols of a destroyer, even until a (the) consummation/complete end so having been decreed shall be poured out upon a desolator.”

These verses speak about a number of very specific events, and three specific people. An itemization:

1) A commander of a military force shall cause his army to destroy both Jerusalem and its Sanctuary.

2) That commander shall come/go in – in context, into the Land of Israel.

3) The Sanctuary shall be overwhelmed by a flood of attackers.

4) The commander shall cause his people to make or confirm some kind of covenant with a multitude of the people of Israel for seven years.

5) Either approximately or exactly (the Hebrew text allows for either) in the middle of the seven years, the commander shall be the cause of an end to blood sacrifice and other offerings.

6) “An intensive desolator” = “a destroyer” shall commit abominations, and/or bring idols over or upon a wing/corner of the Temple. Nothing indicates that this destroyer is the commander

7) That idolatry shall continue until a complete end, one having been decreed or determined at some point, shall be “poured out upon a desolator.” This water metaphor “poured out” hearkens back to verse 26ʼs words “its [the Sanctuaryʼs] end shall be with a flood.” Likewise, the ʻdecreed endʼ of verse 27 likely refers back to the ʻdecreed desolationsʼ of verse 26, at least in part.

from: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1605-daniel-924-27-examined-part-6-do-verses-26b-27-prophesy-future-events/

Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 7: Were Verses 26b-27 Fulfilled Historically?

Here is some of the historical viewʼs evidence, showing that Daniel 9:26b-27ʼs seven specific prophecies have already been fulfilled:

1-2) Vespasian, a widely-revered Roman military commander, arrived in the Holy Land in early 67 A.D. Emperor Nero had sent him to quell a revolt begun in 66 by many of the Jews against their corrupt Roman overlords. Vespasian established (caused) these two Roman policies for the duration of the Jewish War of 66/67-73:

I) Any Jew who peacefully re-submitted to Romeʼs authority was to be spared, and be allowed to live in peace. See #4 below.

II) Any Jew who continued to resist that authority was to be ruthlessly subdued. In the Spring, Vespasian, accompanied by his son Titus, three legions, and auxiliary troops altogether amounting to more than 60,000 men, began to war against the rebels in Galilee.

1, 3) Vespasianʼs policy #II ultimately caused the Roman army to destroy both Jerusalem and its Sanctuary, because the Jewish rebels continued to use both places as fortresses of defense.

4) Vespasian, by means of his policy #I, made covenants of peace with a number of important non-resisting cities. Essentially, he was merely “confirming” Romeʼs original covenant with the Jews, which allowed them – uniquely among the peoples of the Empire – to practice only their own mono-theistic religion, provided that they submitted to Roman civil authority.

According to the record by Josephus,

The Jewish War, Whiston version; Preface 8: [Vespasian] took…some of its [Galilee’s] cities by treaties, and on terms.

III:2:4 …the inhabitants of Sepphoris…the largest city of Galilee…received Vespasian, the Roman general, very kindly, and readily promised that they would assist him…

III:9:8 Now the seniors of the people [of Tiberius]…fell down before Vespasian, to supplicate his favor… Vespasian…accepted of their rights hands by way of security…[and] the citizens opened to him their gates…

from: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1611-daniel-924-27-examined-part-7-were-verses-26b-27-fulfilled-historically/

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by WilliamL

[Spock]

18 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Spock....

I thought that I DID answer the question both times. So, I will try once more.....in plain English.

It is Jesus who confirms a covenant with the many for one week......Jesus will pour out the Holy Spirit on believers ....this is the strengthening of the covenant, the New Covenant.

Yes, believers receive the Holy Spirit when they come to Jesus in the new birth. But the Holy Spirit just might strengthen believers during the final 70th week. And why not....demons will be having a field day with deception and all sorts of displays after the workings of Satan. 

Is this the answer you are looking for....maybe?

Show me in the Word where it says Jesus confirmed a covenant for 7 years (one week).

[Charlie744]

Spock, I have to agree with your own / earlier comment - it is most likely time for you to move on to another topic.  

There indeed has been a significant amount of information presented by some talented folks in this site but it appears you are still comfortable with your own interpretation—- and that is fine!

And even though you will never agree- Daniel IS writing about the Messiah, He IS writing about the covenant mentioned in Jeremiah, he is writing about the crucifixion where He was cut off in the midst of Daniel’s last week, he IS writing about Daniel’s last week- the final 7 years of the 70 weeks prophecy, and .... well, I think we are done here....

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and you seem happy with yours... NEXT!