Great tribulation

[douggg]

On 1/14/2021 at 6:31 PM, iamlamad said:

I must disagree: He remains for a moment in the clouds and then returns to heaven. His presense does not remain on earth for 7 years - not that I can read anywhere. Since you believe this, show us scripture.

The scripture which Jesus returns at the end of the 7 years and will be present on this current earth is in Ezekiel 39:21.     Following Armageddon in Ezekiel 39:17-20.     Jesus Himself speaking in verse 21.

 

17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.

20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

_________________________________________________________________________________

 

Backing up the above verse, from Psalms 2...

6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2021 by douggg

[iamlamad]

On 1/14/2021 at 2:20 PM, WilliamL said:

 Just as the Presence of the Lord came to the Israelites and remained with them, whether visible or invisible, so will the Presence be from the Rapture onward.

Can you back this statement up with any scripture? We could say "His presence" is here now, because the Holy Spirit is here now. But what is now cannot be compared to His coming and continued presence as seen in Rev. 19. 
 

I believe, when He returns to heaven with His Bride, His "presence" goes back with Him.

[iamlamad]

On 11/20/2020 at 6:16 AM, kenny2212 said:

Rev 7:14 - 

 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

I used to think that the great tribulation in this passage referred to the final 7 years. I have now though come to the conclusion that it refers to the first 5 of the 7 seals.

Tribulation is only tribulation before God steps in. When God steps in it becomes God's wrath. Take for example the Israelites in Egypt - You would agree that they sure did have tribulation but that all changed when God stepped in. 

We've been told in the bible that only the 144000 Jews (out of all Christians) remain here (Rev. 7:1-8) during the final 7 years. They will be protected (verse 3) just as the Israelites were in Egypt.

Any questions or comments?

Thanks for reading.

Comments: it seems this post escapes reality in several ways.  First, your heading was "Great tribulation." These two words together was used in Revelation only twice, and it seems neither use was for the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of. I suspect, when people see your title, they immediately think of the days of GT Jesus spoke up.

When you use the verse in Rev. 7, indeed it does use those two words together, but the meaning here is far different that when Jesus said GT. Here John is talking about the raptured church seen in heaven before any part of the 70th week has been covered in John's narrative. Here the term "GT" seems to mean the entire church age with all the combined days of tribulation suffered by the saints at every time of tribulation. 

Therefore, this verse in chapter 7 does indeed refer to the first 5 seals, but perhaps not in the way you think: The first five seals cover the entire church age! Seal one is the church sent out with the gospel. Seals 2 through 4 represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. God has allowed him to use wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts - but limited him to only 1/4 of the earth.

Indeed, the 144,000 are seals AFTER the rapture of the church, so one could say they "remain." However, they "remain" only until the midpoint of the week or so, because when John sees them again, they are seen in heaven. 

[WilliamL]

On 3/23/2021 at 10:25 AM, iamlamad said:

Can you back this statement up with any scripture? We could say "His presence" is here now, because the Holy Spirit is here now. But what is now cannot be compared to His coming and continued presence as seen in Rev. 19.

I believe, when He returns to heaven with His Bride, His "presence" goes back with Him.

Sure. For one example, here is what the Lord will do to protect Israel from an Edomite army during the Wrath:

Isaiah 63:1 Who is this who comes from ^aEdom^a, with dyed garments from ^aBozrah^a? This one who is glorious in his apparel, traveling in the greatness of his strength?

I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

2 Why is your apparel red, and your garments like one who treads in the winepress?

3 I have trodden the winepress ^balone; and of the people there was none with me^b: for I trod them in my anger, and trampled them in my fury; and ^ctheir blood has been spattered upon my garments, and I have stained all my robes^c.

4 For ^dthe Day of Vengeance [i.e., Wrath]^d is in My heart, and the year of My redeemed has come.

5 I looked, but ^bthere was no one [else] to help^b, and I wondered, because ^bthere was no one [else] to uphold^b;

Therefore My own arm brought salvation for me, and ^dMy own fury^d, it sustained Me. ...

Isaiah 34:5 For My sword shall be bathed in heaven, indeed it shall come down on ^aEdom^a,

And on the people of My curse, for judgment.

6 The sword of the LORD is filled with ^cblood^c…

For the LORD has a sacrifice in ^aBozrah^a, and a great slaughter in the land of ^aEdom^a.

7 Because it is ^dthe Day of the LORDʼs Vengeance^d…

Revelation 6:17 For ^dthe Great Day of His Wrath^d has come, and who is able to stand?

Must not the things above – and specifically, this bloody battle fought with the Edomites by the Lord alone – come before this?

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven having been opened, and behold a white horse; and the one sitting upon him being called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. … 13 And [he] having been ^cclothed with a garment having been covered in blood^c: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And ^gthe armies which were in heaven followed him^g… 19 And I saw the Beast, and the kings of the earth and their armies, having been assembled to make war with Him who sat on the horse and with his army.

Are not these TWO distinct events that take place separately? Namely,

1) The Lord ^balone^b, getting ^cHis garment stained with blood^c.

2) The Lord ^gwith the armies of heaven^g, “with ^ca garment [already] having been covered/stained [perfect passive participle] in blood^c,” going out to another battle sometime after the former battle.

At that later battle, at which time heaven will be opened, Revelation 19:11-13 testifies that Jesus’ clothing will already have been covered in blood. Blood only comes from bodies of flesh. Bodies of flesh and blood only dwell upon the face of the earth. Therefore, what other explanation for this blood is possi-ble than this? – Jesus’ clothing will become blood-soaked on earth sometime before his descent in Revelation 19 to fight with the Beast and his allies.

 

Two other events that take place between the Rapture and the Rev. 19 judgment are found in Ezek. 20:33ff. and Genesis 49:25. See the full article on these things here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1135-when-does-the-lord-smite-edom/

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by WilliamL

[Buddy D. Mouse]

Rev 7:14

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

It does not say THE great tribulation. Greek has a definite article - it is NOT used here.

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Sure. For one example, here is what the Lord will do to protect Israel from an Edomite army during the Wrath:

Isaiah 63:1 Who is this who comes from ^aEdom^a, with dyed garments from ^aBozrah^a? This one who is glorious in his apparel, traveling in the greatness of his strength?

I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

2 Why is your apparel red, and your garments like one who treads in the winepress?

3 I have trodden the winepress ^balone; and of the people there was none with me^b: for I trod them in my anger, and trampled them in my fury; and ^ctheir blood has been spattered upon my garments, and I have stained all my robes^c.

4 For ^dthe Day of Vengeance [i.e., Wrath]^d is in My heart, and the year of My redeemed has come.

5 I looked, but ^bthere was no one [else] to help^b, and I wondered, because ^bthere was no one [else] to uphold^b;

Therefore My own arm brought salvation for me, and ^dMy own fury^d, it sustained Me. ...

Isaiah 34:5 For My sword shall be bathed in heaven, indeed it shall come down on ^aEdom^a,

And on the people of My curse, for judgment.

6 The sword of the LORD is filled with ^cblood^c…

For the LORD has a sacrifice in ^aBozrah^a, and a great slaughter in the land of ^aEdom^a.

7 Because it is ^dthe Day of the LORDʼs Vengeance^d…

Revelation 6:17 For ^dthe Great Day of His Wrath^d has come, and who is able to stand?

Must not the things above – and specifically, this bloody battle fought with the Edomites by the Lord alone – come before this?

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven having been opened, and behold a white horse; and the one sitting upon him being called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. … 13 And [he] having been ^cclothed with a garment having been covered in blood^c: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And ^gthe armies which were in heaven followed him^g… 19 And I saw the Beast, and the kings of the earth and their armies, having been assembled to make war with Him who sat on the horse and with his army.

Are not these TWO distinct events that take place separately? Namely,

1) The Lord ^balone^b, getting ^cHis garment stained with blood^c.

2) The Lord ^gwith the armies of heaven^g, “with ^ca garment [already] having been covered/stained [perfect passive participle] in blood^c,” going out to another battle sometime after the former battle.

At that later battle, at which time heaven will be opened, Revelation 19:11-13 testifies that Jesus’ clothing will already have been covered in blood. Blood only comes from bodies of flesh. Bodies of flesh and blood only dwell upon the face of the earth. Therefore, what other explanation for this blood is possi-ble than this? – Jesus’ clothing will become blood-soaked on earth sometime before his descent in Revelation 19 to fight with the Beast and his allies.

I believe the Isaiah 63 narrative will happen before Armegeddon or perhaps during. He is GOD and can move at the speed of light. He could be in Bozrah one instant and be in Meggido in another.

 

As for Rev. 19:  " he was clothed with a vesture dipped [dyed, covered, soaked] in blood:"

I submit that this is HIS blood. His shed blood is how He became the King of Kings and gave Him the right to lead these armies of heaven.

[seeking the lost]

On 3/23/2021 at 11:25 AM, iamlamad said:

Can you back this statement up with any scripture? We could say "His presence" is here now, because the Holy Spirit is here now. But what is now cannot be compared to His coming and continued presence as seen in Rev. 19. 
 

I believe, when He returns to heaven with His Bride, His "presence" goes back with Him.

Omnipresence is a term in theology that means present everywhere.  That would mean that Jesus Himself is here just as He said.  Matthew 28:20 (NIV)
and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”  When Jesus appeared to John to give revelation this is how He identified Himself.  Revelation 1:8 (NIV)
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”  Not only is He to come but also "is".

The one who promised never to leave us is not absent from us.  He is here and it is impossible for Him not to be here.

[iamlamad]

48 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

Omnipresence is a term in theology that means present everywhere.  That would mean that Jesus Himself is here just as He said.  Matthew 28:20 (NIV)
and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”  When Jesus appeared to John to give revelation this is how He identified Himself.  Revelation 1:8 (NIV)
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”  Not only is He to come but also "is".

The one who promised never to leave us is not absent from us.  He is here and it is impossible for Him not to be here.

My point was, He will "come" (only to the clouds) and when He "comes" then His presence will certainly be different than what it is today, for today He is not in the clouds for He has not "come."

When He does come to the clouds to call His bride up, He will not stay, but will return back to heaven, so that special presence will also return. 

Then 7 plus years later He will come to stay, and then His presence will certainly be different than it is today: He will be VISIBLE.

[seeking the lost]

23 hours ago, iamlamad said:

My point was, He will "come" (only to the clouds) and when He "comes" then His presence will certainly be different than what it is today, for today He is not in the clouds for He has not "come."

When He does come to the clouds to call His bride up, He will not stay, but will return back to heaven, so that special presence will also return. 

Then 7 plus years later He will come to stay, and then His presence will certainly be different than it is today: He will be VISIBLE.

You are missing out on so much if you do not know the presence of the Father and Jesus in this life.  John 14:23 (ESV)
Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

They can not make their home with us if He is not here.  Of course you do have to obey and love Jesus then they take up residence.

The part about is to come is not about His presence but a change in roll and activity.  You may not know this but according to Isaiah 6 the whole earth is full of His glory.  That will not change but we will be able to be aware of it.

Isaiah 6:3 (ESV)
And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!”

Habakkuk 2:14 (ESV)
For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, seeking the lost said:

You are missing out on so much if you do not know the presence of the Father and Jesus in this life.  John 14:23 (ESV)
Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

They can not make their home with us if He is not here.  Of course you do have to obey and love Jesus then they take up residence.

The part about is to come is not about His presence but a change in roll and activity.  You may not know this but according to Isaiah 6 the whole earth is full of His glory.  That will not change but we will be able to be aware of it.

Isaiah 6:3 (ESV)
And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!”

Habakkuk 2:14 (ESV)
For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.

All this may well be so, but when He comes as shown in Rev. 19, it is going to be far different that it is now.