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Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture


George

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16 hours ago, n2thelight said:

So how can it be imminent ?

His purpose is His Word

Hi n2thelight,

Nice to discuss with your again. Sorry if I gave the impression of Christ`s imminent return. I don`t believe that as Eph. 4: 13 tells us that the Body will be brought to the unity of the faith, and the knowledge of the Son of God......by the Holy Spirit. That is still in process I believe.

God`s purpose is in His word - God `purposed in Himself that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth - in Him.` (Eph. 1: 10)

The Body of Christ has a part, an inheritance within that great purpose. Thus we need to know our part, so as to understand when God will send Jesus to `catch away` His Body.

regards, Marilyn.

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On 12/1/2018 at 6:19 PM, Marilyn C said:

Also God does clearly say WHEN the `catching away` is.

Hi Marilyn....

Been a long time. Hope you are well.

Soooooo, can you shed some more light as to "God does clearly say WHEN the `catching away` is."......"so as to understand when God will send Jesus to `catch away` His Body."

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2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Marilyn....

Been a long time. Hope you are well.

Soooooo, can you shed some more light as to "God does clearly say WHEN the `catching away` is."......"so as to understand when God will send Jesus to `catch away` His Body."

Hi JoeCanada,

Thank you for your interest. I am recovering from major surgery, but the Lord is good and taking me through. Now to your question and very glad you are interested.

It is CLEAR when you understand a few very important points regarding the Lord.

We know that the Lord is far above all, returned to the Godhead, at the right hand of the Father. This `throne,` authority is beyond all created realms. (Eph. 1: 20 & 21) Now we know that each of the created realms have authority positions under God. (Col. 1: 16) At the moment there has been rebellion but soon Christ will begin to put down all rule and authority. (1 Cor. 15: 24 & 25)

Soon Christ will begin to operate in the authority and power given of the Father in the highest created realm. (Rev. 4: 2)This realm was where Lucifer was a kingpriest. He was found unworthy, ( Ez. 28: 16)but the authority position is awaiting the worthy one. (Rev. 5: 2) That inauguration of the glorified Son of Man, (& Son of God) as Kingpriest will come about with His order of kingpriests. (Rev. 4: 4)

We know from God`s word that the Body of Christ are those kingpriests who will rule and reign with Him on His very own throne, (His authority). (Rev. 1: 6  &  3: 21)Together they will judge the world system and fallen angels. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3) This occurs during the tribulation. (Rev. 12: 7 - 9, Rev. 18: 21) And from then on the Lord will be putting down all rule and authority through the tribulation and the millennium, till it is all wrapped up. (1 Cor. 15: 25 - 28)

God sends Jesus for the mature Body of Christ (Eph. 4: 13) when it is time for the restoration of all things, with the focus on rulership. ( Acts 3: 20 & 21) And the first rulership position is the investiture of the glorified Lord Jesus Christ in the third heaven with His Body. 

regards, Marilyn.

 

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On 12/1/2018 at 6:18 PM, Steve Conley said:

How does one defend the indefensible?

One thing that really escapes many people is that is not within anyone's pay grade to defend the plans of YHVH.  We are finite creatures trying to understand the plans of an infinite Lord.   Most of us probably got some of the plan right and some of it wrong.  No one has a total lock on everything to make such a bold statement of "How does one defend the indefensible".   That exhibits a weakness of character wherein the only hindrance of the truth is from those who think they already have it.

All we can do is show scriptural support for various views and hash them around with each other in order to get closer to the truth.  But from what I see from anti pre-trib folks is an almost bizarre desire to go thru the GT period just so they can gloat on the other end about how they were right.  

I think many come at the issue with a lot of egotistical baggage.   And I am not convinced they truly understand justification.  It seems that a lot of misconceptions like purgatory is in play.  The justified having to go thru the tribulation period to prove themselves worthy is nothing more than purgatory on steroids.  It shows a disbelief in Sola Fide... salvation by faith alone.

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On 3/15/2019 at 8:15 AM, OldCoot said:

 But from what I see from anti pre-trib folks is an almost bizarre desire to go thru the GT period just so they can gloat on the other end about how they were right.  

I think many come at the issue with a lot of egotistical baggage.   And I am not convinced they truly understand justification.  It seems that a lot of misconceptions like purgatory is in play.  The justified having to go thru the tribulation period to prove themselves worthy is nothing more than purgatory on steroids. 

Strawman. No one I know says that.

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9 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Strawman. No one I know says that.

It was a fallacious comment to get the point across.  A metaphor.  Apologies to those who never studied literature.  I sure wasn't quoting anyone that I am aware of.   

I think the reaction to the comment is telling though.  Some folks really do seem wound too tight.  When I catch myself getting that way, I break out my Triumph motorcycle and spend a few hours just getting away from everything.  Just focusing on the beauty God has created and letting the wind hit me in the chest.  

But each person has their own way.

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The mind wrenching argument goes on and on among rapture fans - without end, seemingly.   

None of them are sure about the arrival of their departure, but they are absolutely certain it will happen even if there's absolutely NO contextual support for the idea. The fact they have no idea what they're talking about and constantly argue with one another about fine points of a dream world they wish for is proof positive.  The rapture is a doctrine of demons and the imaginary world of fools.

Object to this demonic doctrine and you will eventually get censored by a moderator.  Free exchange of thought is not allowed.   Object to this poppycock and you'll start a religious fist fight that will result in all sorts of insults - supported I must add by the moderators themselves.  Point out the flaws and the language being used and censorship will take its toll.

Nobody and I mean nobody realizes the rapture is the doctrine of cowards, religious bigots, liars and profit hungry con artists.

"I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one." - Jesus as quoted by John 17:15

Which part of NOT do rapture fans NOT understand?  

All of it, apparently.  It will generally be ignored, because of course Jesus didn't know what He was talking about did he?   It can also be suggested the quote is taken out of context even though the entire rapture nonsense is based on about a half-dozen verses scattered here and there in scripture having nothing at all to do with the doctrine except that it sounds good when used outside of the body of work from which it's lifted.

The rapture is a doctrine of cowards because it suggests gullible American Protestants will be wisked away from earthly trouble before they get their little tail feathers twisted.  The doctrine refuses to acknowledge that God will be with His disciples THROUGH any difficulty.  The entire Bible context attests to this attitude of the Most High.   God hates a coward (Revelation 21:8), but that is exactly what rapture dogma doesn't teach.   Jesus encourages His followers to be stalwart and of good courage.  Rapture fans sit in their pews and nod their bobble-heads and agree with whatever buzz words come their way. 

The rapture doctrine is anti-semitic and exclusivist.   ONLY American Protestant Christians will be allowed to "beam out".   The doctrine explicitly excludes Jews and all the rest of Christendom including Roman Catholics and the Orthodox denominations - which form the majority of Christendom by the way.   Of all the worlds' three major religions, only American Protestants believe they are somehow exceptionally endowed with Tinkerbell dust so as to fly away when things get dicey.

"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man can reason away." - Doobie Brothers WHAT A FOOL BELIEVES song of the year 1980

It goes without saying that fools who believe the rapture doctrine to be truth can not and will not be reasoned with.  Instead they cling to their dogma and refuse to accept the rest of the Bible's teaching.   Emmanuel is God with us.  What for?  So that he can punch a lottery ticket to beam American Protestants into the clouds -OR- so that He can comfort and encourage us in the midst of trouble?

Rapture fans seem to forget that part, or using double-minded logic somehow think they can have both at the same time.   That's impossible too, but they won't buy that logic either.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

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1 minute ago, choir loft said:

The mind wrenching argument goes on and on among rapture fans - without end, seemingly.   

None of them are sure about the arrival of their departure, but they are absolutely certain it will happen even if there's absolutely NO contextual support for the idea. The fact they have no idea what they're talking about and constantly argue with one another about fine points of a dream world they wish for is proof positive.  The rapture is a doctrine of demons and the imaginary world of fools.

Object to this demonic doctrine and you will eventually get censored by a moderator.  Free exchange of thought is not allowed.   Object to this poppycock and you'll start a religious fist fight that will result in all sorts of insults - supported I must add by the moderators themselves.  Point out the flaws and the language being used and censorship will take its toll.

Nobody and I mean nobody realizes the rapture is the doctrine of cowards and liars and profit hungry con artists.

"I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one." - Jesus as quoted by John 17:15

Which part of NOT do rapture fans NOT understand?  

All of it, apparently.  It will generally be ignored, because of course Jesus didn't know what He was talking about did he?   It can also be suggested the quote is taken out of context even though the entire rapture nonsense is based on about a half-dozen verses scattered here and there in scripture having nothing at all to do with the doctrine except that it sounds good when used outside of the body of work from which it's lifted.

The rapture is a doctrine of cowards because it suggests gullible American Protestants will be wicked away from earthly trouble before they get their little tail feathers twisted.  The doctrine refuses to acknowledge that God will be with His disciples THROUGH any difficulty.  The entire Bible context attests to this attitude of the Most High.   God hates a coward (Revelation 21:8) and that is exactly what rapture dogma teaches.   Jesus encourages His followers to be stalwart and of good courage.  Rapture fans sit in their pews and nod their bobble-heads and agree with whatever buzz words come their way. 

The rapture doctrine is anti-semitic and exclusivist.   ONLY American Protestant Christians will be allowed to "beam out".   The doctrine explicitly excludes Jews and all the rest of Christendom including Roman Catholics and the Orthodox denominations - which form the majority of Christendom by the way.   Of all the worlds' three major religions, only American Protestants believe they are somehow exceptionally endowed with Tinkerbell dust so as to fly away when things get dicey.

"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man can reason away." - Doobie Brothers WHAT A FOOL BELIEVES song of the year 1980

It goes without saying that fools who believe the rapture doctrine to be truth can not and will not be reasoned with.  Instead they cling to their dogma and refuse to accept the rest of the Bible's teaching.   Emmanuel is God with us.  What for?  So that he can punch a lottery ticket to beam American Protestants into the clouds -OR- so that He can comfort and encourage us in the midst of trouble?

Rapture fans seem to forget that part, or using double-minded logic somehow think they can have both at the same time.   That's impossible too, but they won't buy that logic either.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

That's rubbish.

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2 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

That's rubbish.

Which part?   Prove the assertion wrong.   Don't just sit there and object to it.  

Now let me see..........first thing that may happen is posting of a number of scriptures taken out of context to support the rapture dogma.   Second thing is empty opposition such as "this is rubbish".  Third thing is direct personal character assassination - supported by moderators by the way.  I've seen it all.

What I've rarely seen is agreement that Biblical context supports courage and a resolute faith in the ability of God to save - right here, right now, in the midst of trouble.   Character and faith is made perfect in the midst of trouble.   What does the doctrine of cowards - the rapture - do except to deny courage and base a fool's hope on a cowardly escape from it?

THINK

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

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7 minutes ago, choir loft said:

Which part?   Prove the assertion wrong.   Don't just sit there and object to it.  

Now let me see..........first thing that may happen is posting of a number of scriptures taken out of context to support the rapture dogma.   Second thing is empty opposition such as "this is rubbish".  Third thing is direct personal character assassination - supported by moderators by the way.  I've seen it all.

What I've rarely seen is agreement that Biblical context supports courage and a resolute faith in the ability of God to save - right here, right now, in the midst of trouble.   Character and faith is made perfect in the midst of trouble.   What does the doctrine of cowards - the rapture - do except to deny courage and base a fool's hope on a cowardly escape from it?

THINK

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Which part?  All of it!

The Rapture of the Church before the Tribulation.

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them. Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that you may be accounted worth to escape all these things of, Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before the Son of man,”  Luke 21:34-36. These two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John 14:1-3, are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the Rapture. Jesus did not reveal this, it was revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor. 15:51. The disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things through His power. The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul explained how they were to escape.

The Rapture of the church should never be confused with the second coming or second advent  of Christ, for He does not come to the earth at that time.

The Rapture is a distinct coming in itself, not to the Earth, but in the air where Christ meets the saints and then takes them back to Heaven to present them blameless before God the Father, John 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16, 17.

The Rapture takes place several years before the literal advent of Christ to the Earth, for they, the saints come back with Him at that time. The saints are in Heaven before God, and not in the air, from the time of the Rapture to their coming again with Christ to reign as kings and priests, Jude 14; Rev. 19:14; Zech. 14:5.

At the Rapture, the Lord comes from Heaven as far as the air, or Earthly Heavens and the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

At the second coming, the saints are not raptured, and neither is Christ, but both will come back to the Earth together. The rapture takes place before the Tribulation, whereas the second Advent takes place after the Tribulation. The Rapture could occur at any time, whereas the second Advent cannot occur until after the tribulation.

Daniel’s Seventieth Week and the Tribulation. Dan. 9:24-27.

The Tribulation will begin to affect Israel before the seventieth week begins. And when the Antichrist rises at the beginning of the Week, Israel will be undergoing persecution by the whore and the ten kings of Revised Rome who are dominated by the whore until the middle of the week. The Antichrist will make a seven years covenant with Israel assuring them protection in their continued establishment as a nation, Dan. 9:27.

The Jews will not accept Catholicism when it again dominates the nations of the old world and begins to murder all heretics as it has done in the past. Because Jews will not submit, there will be a widespread persecution of the Jews and “theywill be hated of all nations” during the time of “the beginning of sorrows” when the Antichrist will be endeavoring to conquer all these nations, Matt. 24:4-12.

Antichrist will need Jewish moral and financial support to help him rise over these nations, so he will make an alliance with them for seven years. Therefore, the time of the Tribulation is during the whole of Daniel’s Seventieth Week, Dan. 9:27. It will end at the second Advent, Matt. 24:29-31.

Jesus said that the angels don't know when the rapture will happen, He also said that even He does not know. So if the angels don't know then Satan also doesn't know when it will happen. Only the Father knows according to Jesus.

Mark 13:4, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Jesus replied,

Mark 13:32, But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Scripture also states that Satan knows that he has but a short time.

 

Revelation 12:12,Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

Taking in the fact that we and Satan live in eternity future, Satan knew he had but a short time the day he rebelled against the Father, and the fact the Jesus defeated him by His death and resurrection. Any length of time cut from a life to be lived in eternity, no matter when this occurs will be but a short time.

 

The disciples asked Jesus when will this all occur?

 

 

Mark 13:4, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

 

5, And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

    

6, For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    

7, And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.

    

8, For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

 

9, But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

    

10, And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

 

All these things so far at one time or another have been happening since Jesus returned to Heaven and sent the Holy Spirit to keep us and guide us. The only thing I can see that has not yet occurred is the fact the gospel has not yet been preached among all nations.

 

There have been tribes found deep in South America, Papua New Guinea, and other parts of the Earth that have not yet even heard of God, the gospel, or Jesus.

 

The Rapture of the Church before the Tribulation.

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them. Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that you may be accounted worth to escape all these things of, Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before the Son of man,”  Luke 21:34-36. These two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John 14:1-3, are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the Rapture. Jesus did not reveal this, it was revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor. 15:51. The disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things through His power. The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul explained how they were to escape.

The Rapture of the church should never be confused with the second coming or second advent  of Christ, for He does not come to the earth at that time.

The Rapture is a distinct coming in itself, not to the Earth, but in the air where Christ meets the saints and then takes them back to Heaven to present them blameless before God the Father, John 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16, 17.

The Rapture takes place several years before the literal advent of Christ to the Earth, for they, the saints come back with Him at that time. The saints are in Heaven before God, and not in the air, from the time of the Rapture to their coming again with Christ to reign as kings and priests, Jude 14; Rev. 19:14; Zech. 14:5.

At the Rapture, the Lord comes from Heaven as far as the air, or Earthly Heavens and the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

At the second coming, the saints are not raptured, and neither is Christ, but both will come back to the Earth together. The rapture takes place before the Tribulation, whereas the second Advent takes place after the Tribulation. The Rapture could occur at any time, whereas the second Advent cannot occur until after the tribulation.

 

Daniel’s Seventieth Week and the Tribulation. Dan. 9:24-27.

 The Tribulation will begin to affect Israel before the seventieth week begins. And when the Antichrist rises at the beginning of the Week, Israel will be undergoing persecution by the whore and the ten kings of Revised Rome who are dominated by the whore until the middle of the week. The Antichrist will make a seven years covenant with Israel assuring them protection in their continued establishment as a nation, Dan. 9:27.

The Jews will not accept Catholicism when it again dominates the nations of the old world and begins to murder all heretics as it has done in the past. Because Jews will not submit, there will be a widespread persecution of the Jews and “theywill be hated of all nations” during the time of “the beginning of sorrows” when the Antichrist will be endeavoring to conquer all these nations, Matt. 24:4-12.

Antichrist will need Jewish moral and financial support to help him rise over these nations, so he will make an alliance with them for seven years. Therefore, the time of the Tribulation is during the whole of Daniel’s Seventieth Week, Dan. 9:27. It will end at the second Advent, Matt. 24:29-31.

 

"And the gospel must first be published among all nations."

 

WHEN WILL IT OCCURE.

 

Mark 13:33, Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

    

34, For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

    

35, Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

    

36, Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

    

37, And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

 

So when will it be? Lets forget the word "SOON."

 

Only the Father knows, and Jesus knows this much, Jesus commands us to be ever ready, for it can happen any time!

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