YOUR OPINION ON THIS VERSE?

[Your closest friendnt]

7 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

RAPTURE - FALLING AWAY

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (KJV) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (ESV) Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction

Geneva Bible: 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any meanes: for that day shal not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, even yͤ sonne of perdition,

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

The rebellion in this verse (ESV) has been the topic of much discussion. Various translations also use falling away (KJV) or apostasy (NASB). It is argued that earlier Bibles prior to King James, such as the 1599 Geneva Bible, show the translation of this Greek word differently and correctly. This version states: “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.”

As you can see, it speaks of a departing. That’s quite different than apostasy. Interpreted as a rebellion or falling away implies that there will be a massive turning from the truth of the Gospel, i.e., away from belief in God. If seen as a departure, it is considered as a description of the Rapture.

There are good arguments on both sides of this issue. I’m agnostic about it. If it means that a wholesale turning away from the Lord happens prior to the Rapture, I’m good with that because we’re certainly seeing that in these latter days. If instead it means that the man of lawlessness can only be revealed once the Rapture occurs, that’s even better in my book.

Regardless of these two interpretations, something dramatic happens, and only then can the Antichrist come forth onto the world stage. There is a restraining force in play that keeps him hidden. It is God Himself who holds back lawlessness until the right time (2 Thessalonians 2:6).

The Restrainer, of course, is the Holy Spirit. The mystery of His restraint is that He indwells every believer. In addition, He is integral to and indwelling the true church of Jesus Christ in its ability for the saints to assemble. Paul states in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8:

“For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.”

The restraint of the Holy Spirit remains until He is removed (Rapture). Then, and only then, can Antichrist be made known. Is it the apostasy or the departure that enables this to occur? Yes. The apostasy inevitably leads to the Rapture. However, one wants to define the term, the snatching away of believers by Christ in the clouds, and by extension, the removal of the church as a dwelling place for the Spirit on earth, must happen as the first move of God to allow all other events in the end-times scenario.

So, are we talking apostacy or Rapture here? All my Greek lexicons support: 646.  ἀποστασία apŏstasia, ap-os-tas-ee´-ah; fem. of the same as 647; defection from truth (prop. the state) [“apostasy”]:—falling away, forsake.

James Strong, in A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2009), 15.

I posted the context in chapter one. Perhaps if you read it carefully you may realize on your own how far away you have allowed yourself to go from the guidance of Paul to Thessalonians who at that time were suffering severe persecution, from all fronds they were attacked by their enemies, those who opposed the Gospel of Jesus Christ who were bribed by the Jews in their city. 

Thessaloniki was a dirty  commercial city sold to bribery and politics. 

And they were frustrated as to why the Lord does not do something about that, and put the people who suffocate them in a place where they will stopped oppressing them and harassing them. 

And Paul is telling them that Jesus won't tarry for too long, that he will come down from Heaven and not alone to fight for you and deal with your enemies, in other words destroy them.  

Sorry about how you want to hung around those scriptures and use them to advance something that Paul had never intended to do.

You bring a lot of things into his writings that are enough to make him angry or to make him turned around in his grave in the common language of people who want to emphasize that Paul did not say anything about a rapture the way in your post Paul is portrayed to have said. 

*****2 Thessalonians ch.1v.1-12.

1. Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

² Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

³ We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;

⁴ So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

⁵ Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

⁶ Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

⁷ And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

⁸ In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

⁹ Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

¹⁰ When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

¹¹ Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

¹² That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ

Edited January 7, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[TheBlade]

Goes tad deeper the more you study..not that you or anyone did. I was just thinking of me. All I will say . this just can really open a can of worms.. why can of worms? No clue to many worms. Can of dimes? Can of sugar...haha anyway

Many years ago that verse did use a different word.  It does mean.....yet can also mean. Can mean many falling away can also mean departure.  So you can see how some can use it any way they want. Its hard not to think its means falling away as we look at this world and how Christ has been taken out of so much and its getting far worse. 

[kwikphilly]

6 hours ago, Selah7 said:

The day that Jesus Christ returns shall not come except there be a falling away first.  Many will be deceived and will worship Satan (fall away and depart from the Truth) when Satan appears at the 6th trump claiming to be Jesus.  Jesus Christ returns at the 7th Trump.

Blessings Brothers & Sisters......

 What Selah has pointed out is key" deceived"..... This particular statement & many other verses of Scripture confirm that the " falling away" is not to be confused with " taken up" or as many prefer to say "Rapture"

 This great deception is what leads many into their departure from the Truth of the Gospel- so there is a " falling away"

Many will argue OSAS but the Word of God also says ""if"" when referencing those who are truly Born Again.... The deception will be so great that even the " elect" will be deceived IF that were possible( Matthew 24:24)- which it is not!

 This apostasy will be so convincing that if it were not for Gods Power through the true Believers Faith in Christ Jesus then we ( Born Again Believers) could not Perservere....Gods GRACE is greater, we are Overcomers, more than Conquerors in Christ.. Sealed, Sanctified, Saved for Redemption

Paul spoke about " the Day of the Lord" to the Thessalonians- they thought they were already in the Tribulation back then- there was much confusion regarding these things so Paul did go over it again by writing sort of an amendment ("2 Thess) to clarify the Day of the Lord, Christs Return & the Second Coming..... The " Restrainer is probably the Church( Body of Christ) who of course is Indwelled by Holy Spirit..., after all, Holy Spirit is Omnipresent so how can He Leave anywhere?The Born Again Believers indwelled by Holy Spirit will be taken up-

The timeline for the order of events can be confusing because we also have a hard time distinguishing sin, wickedness& evil apart from " lawlessness" which is rebellion towards Gods Divine Law....2 Thess expounds on the mysteries of lawlessness( what they saw back then & what we see now) After the church is removed it will go even further, into pure evil with the arrival of the antiChrist......

With love, in Christ- Kwik

 

[angels4u]

9 hours ago, missmuffet said:

The Holy Spirit will still be present during the 7 year tribulation. There will be a lot of people saved during the 7 year tribulation. If the Holy Spirit was not present during that time no one would be saved. 

The Fifth Seal: The Martyrs
9And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.…Rev.6:9-10

[Ray12614]

14 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

 

So, are we talking apostacy or Rapture here? All my Greek lexicons support: 646.  ἀποστασία apŏstasia, ap-os-tas-ee´-ah; fem. of the same as 647; defection from truth (prop. the state) [“apostasy”]:—falling away, forsake.

James Strong, in A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2009), 15.

Good topic Dennis. I do enjoy your posts.

Something else to consider . . . apostacy OR rapture.  Why couldn't that OR be replaced with AND? Instead of mutually exclusive, both conditions could co-exist at the same time?  Just asking .  .  .

There is no doubt that we are seeing a falling away at least in the USA. Falling away from principals taught in the Bible, an falling away from assembling together, and a falling away from prayer and the reading/studying of scripture. All of which is clearly taught as things that the Lord Himself expects from His people who are 'abiding in Him' as we should be doing.

I think it may be a world wide condition happening, but, having never traveled to other countries I have no idea if that is the case or not.

Grace and Peace . . . Ray . . . 

 

[Starise]

Things are very sequential in 2 Thess 2:1-2.

Lets look at the sequence.

What happens first? In 2 Thess 2:1?

we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 

Don't become unsettled or alarmed- Don't worry or become overly concerned.

Concerned about what?

A false teaching that the day of the Lord has already come.

Who is the audience?

The people of Thessalonica in 51AD Paul's second letter addressing end times concerns raised.

Even then, there were false teachers misleading the people. Paul wrote in order to alleviate the concerns of that church. Verse 1 leads to verse 2 where Paul further explains how events will actually take place.

Paul is essentially saying, what you have been told is false and here are the real events.

 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

"For that day will not come" 

What day? 

The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ spoken of in verse 1.

What are the sequential events stated in verse 2,3,4?

A rebellion occurs>a man of lawlessness is revealed>THEN and ONLY THEN will the day of the Lord can take place.

What day of the Lord? 

The day He comes back to claim us to Himself. 

Additional thoughts-

Verse 5 and onward describe "holding back" by the power of God until the time is determined.What are we holding back? This should be obvious. It isn't us being held back or the return of our Lord, it's the the evil one and his ways.

Once again the sequence-

Rebellion occurs>a man of lawlessness is revealed>the day of the Lord takes place where the Lord comes back for us all.

The recipients of this letter are long since dead. This does not change the fact God TOLD them what was going to happen and He told them the SEQUENCE in which it was going to occur.

What does this mean for us as Christians much later in time?

The same things apply to us. These same false teachings abound. The difference is some of us might be around to SEE the man of lawlessness BEFORE the Lord returns.

This is an INDIVIDUAL this man of lawlessness propped up and directed by Satan. WE can see similarities to this individual in the papacy, yet this is not a lineage or transition of MEN. This is an INDIVIDUAL claiming to be God who rebels against all things Godly.

 

 

 

[missmuffet]

4 hours ago, angels4u said:

The Fifth Seal: The Martyrs
9And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.…Rev.6:9-10

That is the tribulation saints.

[Guest]

15 hours ago, missmuffet said:

The Holy Spirit will still be present during the 7 year tribulation. There will be a lot of people saved during the 7 year tribulation. If the Holy Spirit was not present during that time no one would be saved. 

I believe that the Holy Spirit will be present, but that there will be no guarantee of Salvation like we have now. People will have to work to maintain their Salvation.

[missmuffet]

8 minutes ago, Rick_Parker said:

I believe that the Holy Spirit will be present, but that there will be no guarantee of Salvation like we have now. People will have to work to maintain their Salvation.

I think just like now if a person in the 7 year tribulation asks Jesus Christ into their life they will be redeemed. But most likely they will die for their faith in God. They will also be affected by many of the judgments and wrath that God will put on this earth at that time.  There will be a small group of Christians who will remain unharmed by the Antichrist at the end. They may have to go underground which would be a very dangerous operation to partake in. With technology today it would be easy for the Antichrist to find them. 

[Guest]

I think that during that time, if you subsequently reject Christ after accepting His Salvation, that you will be lost. Unlike today, where even if you "reject" Christ after being TRUELY saved, you will still be saved.