Trinity or Oneness?

[mrs]

onwings, the Trinity is not a Catholic belief at all, it is a Christian belief. Catholicism did not come up with the Trinity, the term was used and established over a century before Constantine made Christianity legal.

To say that God is one, and not three Persons in one is heresy of the highest degree. You will say that God is one, and there are three manifestations of Him. But Scripture teaches three distinct Persons in One. Just because our finite mind cant fully grasp this idea, doesn't give us the right to change clear teaching to only mean ' manifestations'.

The idea of 'manifestations' makes nonesense of familiar and well-known passages. Take for example the prophecies in Isaiah 53 where God talks of crushing the Messiah etc. Why wouldn't He just say He was gonna crush Himself? I mean the idea is nonsense, truly nonsense.

[kat8585]

when Jesus was being baptised by John, and the voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased" was that Jesus throwing his voice?

Plus, the Holy Spirit decended like a dove. So all three of them were there.

When Jesus prayed, who was He praying to, Himself?

[other one]

QUOTE

Exod 24 10Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet (15) there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.

QUOTE

John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, ' AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

46 Not that any man has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed.

Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from Him.

So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of, is not what that the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament.

Looking further:

QUOTE

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life and the life was the light of men.

QUOTE

John 1:9 There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world and the world was made through Him and the world did not know Him.

John 8:57-59

57 The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

NASB

It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament days. Jesus in this form was with the Father from the beginning.

It seems to me that the people of the old testament days were not aware of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he existed in before he became flesh.

Further:

QUOTE

Philippians 2:5+ Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with god a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the old testament times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the Father on earth.

Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the fleshly body.

QUOTE

John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me;

QUOTE

John 17:20 Jesus prayed " I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their work: that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me"

It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the Father as the Father knows us. Thus we now can do the work of the Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit

QUOTE

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also come the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put al His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection, it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection, to Him. And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, That God may be all in all.

Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him........ The Father.

I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He was the word nor in the flesh. He is on the same level as the Father( as to authority) because the Father gave Him that authoruty: however, He will also be subject to the Father after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over all and giving it to the Father.

1 Cor 8:5-6

5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

NASB

[sososo]

onwings, the Trinity is not a Catholic belief at all, it is a Christian belief. Catholicism did not come up with the Trinity, the term was used and established over a century before Constantine made Christianity legal.

To say that God is one, and not three Persons in one is heresy of the highest degree. You will say that God is one, and there are three manifestations of Him. But Scripture teaches three distinct Persons in One. Just because our finite mind cant fully grasp this idea, doesn't give us the right to change clear teaching to only mean ' manifestations'.

The idea of 'manifestations' makes nonesense of familiar and well-known passages. Take for example the prophecies in Isaiah 53 where God talks of crushing the Messiah etc. Why wouldn't He just say He was gonna crush Himself? I mean the idea is nonsense, truly nonsense.

Obviously there are distinct qualities as written in scripture but, beyond a literal reading is the word 'persons' that I think bring in a debate. I have no problem with using the word 'manifestation' for lack of a better word. The context of which word to use in referring to a concept which as you say is a thing our finite minds can't fully grasp is all important.

Personally I put no limits on who God is in terms of what is possible or not. As God is outside the limits of time and space in our physical reality this is also difficult to grasp in terms of past, present and future in a time space sense. If this is as you say nonsense of the familiar and well known passages, a person could contend that a fundamentalist is a bible idolizer who is comfortable only with the familiar.

Our understanding is in the divinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Is there a 'distinct' divinity, [?] no.

I do understand the conviction of faith but, using words such as ' heresy of the highest degree ', is an uncalled for judgment in a reply where you state 'nonsense' but haven't provided clear understand to 'onwings'.

Just some thoughts

Edited November 4, 2007 by sososo

[kari21]

quote by kari19 Ummmm....when Jesus was being baptised by John, and the voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased" was that Jesus throwing his voice?

sosos thank you,and karti19 I am sorry you are so limited in your knowledge of the scriptures aswell as the unlimited power of God to do as he wills and be where he wants and complete His plan of salvation through his son born of a woman or how that man could still be the omni present God of heaven and earth.2nd cor 5:18 say that God recenciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ.We all know that we are recenciled to God by Jesus but here the scripture say God himself recenciled us to Him self because Jesus is and was and always will be God,The Father manifest in the flesh 1st tim 3:16.I am sure that most will dis agree with me because the trinity is the predominant teaching in the church.The trinity is a catholic belief and when the prodestants split from the catholic they denounce most of their heretical teaching but some how the trinity teaching slipped through.If you choose to disagree use scripture not childish assumption or jokes about Jesus throwing His voice it just makes you look foolish.

If you choose to disagree use scripture not childish assumption or jokes about Jesus throwing His voice it just makes you look foolish.

OK then, here's the Scripture: "For he did not know what to say, for they were exceedingly afraid. And a cloud overshadowed them, and a voice came out of the cloud, "This is my beloved Son; listen to him." " (Mark 9:6,7)

"Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, "Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased." " (Luke 3:21,22)

Again, (for the sake of sounding "foolish"), was Jesus throwing his voice? Who was Jesus speaking to when he asked, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" in regard to those crucifying him? (Luke 23:34)

Or, "Father, into YOUR hands (not MY hands) I commit my spirit" when he died on the cross? (Luke 23:46)

Was Jesus asking himself to remove the cup of wrath from himself when he was praying in the garden of Gethsemane?

"He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." "(Luke 22:41.42)

It sounds to me that it's you who needs to go back and read the Scripture a little more carefully..

[kat8585]

I just thought of something else. Jesus said He didn't even know when He was coming back, only the Father knows.

[Mutzrein]

I just thought of something else. Jesus said He didn't even know when He was coming back, only the Father knows.

Exactly!

[damo1]

quote by kari19 Ummmm....when Jesus was being baptised by John, and the voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased" was that Jesus throwing his voice?

sosos thank you,and karti19 I am sorry you are so limited in your knowledge of the scriptures aswell as the unlimited power of God to do as he wills and be where he wants and complete His plan of salvation through his son born of a woman or how that man could still be the omni present God of heaven and earth.2nd cor 5:18 say that God recenciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ.We all know that we are recenciled to God by Jesus but here the scripture say God himself recenciled us to Him self because Jesus is and was and always will be God,The Father manifest in the flesh 1st tim 3:16.I am sure that most will dis agree with me because the trinity is the predominant teaching in the church.The trinity is a catholic belief and when the prodestants split from the catholic they denounce most of their heretical teaching but some how the trinity teaching slipped through.If you choose to disagree use scripture not childish assumption or jokes about Jesus throwing His voice it just makes you look foolish.

damo1 to onwingseagle

high please explaine then how the god head works if one is to say what you left for kari i am very grounded in gods word my self i belive in the god head i belive in what heppend in acts and i use the same gifts like laying on hands speaking in tounges and even having sevral prophets in my church that do bring in gods word and even translating it back to the body when some one does use al the gifts of the spirit

also explaine how then can a humen be convicted if you seem to say you only belive in god i can go deep with you if you want to as i just recently encounterd some one else on this thread who took off after being drilled not just by me but sevral other so if i wear you i would be very care ful when it comes to what christ did for us on the cross or was it god him self who was nailed on the cross

who took that joy out of you the child like faith that jesus talks about who took your innocence do you remember what happend at the altar cal when you said the sinners prayer so if one is going to jump on board and begin to question a sister in the lord then one needs to have back up and very hard evidance

like this one person was saying kings james bible is the only bible and we are to get rid of our bibles are reading from and stick to the kings james

the all work together not against each other so please be very care full hear i am wiling to hear you out but at the same time if you are hear to preach and to correct i would think very hard on what you are saying hear

so know i am going to weight to see what responce i get from you

also onwigns eagle explaine this verse mark 2 verse 17 when jesus heard it he said to them those who are well have no need of a physican but those who are sick i did not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance

every time a new christian is seeking advice are we going to led that new christian down the wrong path and fill their head with man made doctrine

when jesus warns us that on judgment day he wil deal with those who make it hard for new christians to move forward why is it so hard for some one to say they only belive in god and ignore what ever else is said in gods living word

and why do people like your self like to hide behind bible pasages its like sifting what we want to hear and when it comes to the hard stuff we put it aside and only stick with the simple stuff

i am sure you are aware that we wil all face god on judgment day and wil have to give account

their has been a fair bit of this latley on this thread wear it seems to me some have nothing better to do then take that joy that is in a new christian becaus we have had bad personal experiances our selves

i mean the bible is so simple to under stand the holy spirit is hear to help he is never hear to lead us down a wrong path i mean the bible is very simple to understand if we have a teachable spirit

what gets up my nose is when people like your self and like the one i encounterd early on this thread is you seem to think you have all the answers and are able to just say as you please with out thinking and think that you can distort gods word to the point wear you have those that are in spirit filled bible beliving churches arguing among them selves

is this what you are trying to do hear my friend have us question what we have learnt in church by good decent stable men and women who are grounded in gods word and who understand this verse in hebrews

hebrews 13 verse 17 obey those who rule over you and be submissive for they watch over your souls as those who must give acount let them do so with joy and not with greif for that would be unprofitable for you

or do you fall in this frame of thinking

james 1 verse 5 if any of you lacks wisdom let him ask of god who gives to al liberaly and with out reproach and it wil be given to him

6 but let him ask in faith with no doubting for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind

7 for let not that man suppose that he will recive anything from the lord

8 he is a double minded man unstable in all his ways

are you asleep to the warnings of what is written down in gods word ?

i mean you are as human as i am human we both read from the same bible we both should know of what was done for us on the cross

do you die to the spirit of the world daily or do you walk as those who are worshiping the spirit of this world ?

do you alow christ to have full controll that means your body is bought at a price you belong to him know and that means your bodie also has the holy spirit living in it that means gods spirit

how does the god head work then if you are to say if you only belive in god ?

i am not attacking you but who ever has been preaching to you needs to go back to the source of gods word and rethink what he or she has been preaching

as you do not want god rebuking you when the whole world faces him on judgment day

how open are you to gods word as it seem like to me you fit in on the same path as what i pointed out in james to you are you a double minded person or are you a person who treads very care full that means respecting your other brothers and sisters and wiling to walk in unity and wiling to form healthy relationships

also i have noticed its so simple to hide behind bible passages and just go by what ever you read with out thinking i did this my pastor did this and many in my church did this and we have had to repent of hiding behind gods word and not just what i have said also doctrine and also this religouse spirit

so please show some respect and try not to lead no one astray we al come from difftent denominations but we al belive in the god head and we al pray to the same god and we all know what christ did for us on the cross

was it god him self in the court yard when the soldires layed into jesus ?

was it god him self when the crown of thorns was driven into his scull ?

i think you need to go over your bible and alow the holy spirit to open the truth of gods word to you

and alow others to also have their say

i love you as a brother but i wil not have it when you bluntly attac with out thinking

gods word is never wrong we are the ones who get it wrong when we only hear what we want to hear and ignore the rest which is what i call the hard stuff dont you know the truth sets a person free

from your brother in the lord damien

[mrs]

From what I understand, Other One was saying that Jesus wasn't equal to the Father, at least in authority.

To that I say, have you read Hebrews 1?

Heb 1:1 God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.

Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Jesus sat down at the right hand of himself? That doesn't make any sense at all. And if He isn't equal with God in authority then why does God say in Philippians 2:11 that we are to worship Christ? Only God is to be worshipped.

[damo1]

damo1

high owingsaseagles by the way are you related to poor in spirit in any way ? if not please forgive me but just whistling in the dark to see if you are connected to this person ?

i also had a Catholic up bringing i am an Orthodox Catholic so by you saying this is a Catholic teaching i am saying you have a religious spirit with in that needs to be rebuked my hole family are Orthodox Catholics

so if some one like my self who had an Orthodox Catholic up bringing can be open to the god head and allow the holy spirit of god to lead me threw gods word and has a teachable spirit also

how then can i understand what the god head means and what the trinity means its so simple to understand all the books Matthew is very easy to understand

mattew 3 verse 11 i baptize you with water for repentance but after me one wil come who is more power full than i whoes sandles i am not fit to carry he wil baptize you with the holy spirit and with fire

the baptisem of jesus

14 then jesus came to galiee to the jorden to be baptized by john

15 jesus replied let it be so know it is proper for us to do this to fulfill al rightousnes then john consented

16 as soon as jesus was baptized he went up out of the water at that moment heaven opend and he saw the spirit of god decending like a dove and lighting on him

17 and a voice from heaven said this is my son whom i love with him i am well pleased

so i am also going to do this to you

as too me you seem to be the fool hear

so tel me have you got a religious spirit in you basing mans doctrine as you seem like the pharisees one poster said they agree with you and i went over what you said to see how this poster was agreeing with you

and i had to go over my notes in my own bible on the passages you wear quoting from

what translation are you reading from and how are you reading the bible you have ? are you as i said in my last post to you sifting threw gods word who head strong is your preacher

as my bible is very simple to understand my friend

only the father knows when Jesus is coming back so wear are you getting AL this marvels

knowledge from my friend as too me you just make me crack up

Jesus came to reconcile man back to god as the father saw the state of the world and what was being done to his people

so god sent his son in the form of a man who is Adams of spring even Adam knew who Jesus was as if you go over the blood line in Matthew you Will see this for your self

Kari said so Jesus threw gods voice i am going to say who is leading you and who are you listening to ?

you seem to be very unstable in your thinking and in the way you read gods word

i mean i know a lot of spirit filled Catholics that have left the Catholic church and in my partners country the Catholics are very mad with born again Christians as Pentecostals and spirit filled Christians are even winning traditional Catholics back to god this is what Christ was doing when he was walking the earth

Jesus took 12 ruff men and these 12 ruff men even followed him when he said come follow me

my grand mother wanted me to be an altar boy when she was taking me to the Catholic church in our village in Yugoslavia yet because of the story's i heard of what the Catholic priests wear doing to some of the young boys in the village i was in i was tended of even though i loved my grandmother and grandfather very much i could not see my self wearing that pansy robe the altar boys wear and pouting up with fake Catholic priests who knew gods word but wear fulfilling their human desires

so this is coming to you from the mouth of an Orthodox Catholic Will you dare to get me to question what i am saying to you

i new of a Catholic priest that use to come to the strip club i use to work in kings cross and in uniform to let every one know he was a Catholic he would each pay day pay in cash for two workers and the women would take him up stairs then when he was finished he would try to preach gods word to me and the other strippers and even the manager of the club and i would just plainly tell the Catholic priest to shut up and leave before i introduce him to the stairs we have as we had a big stair well leading to the up stairs bar and area wear our girls would walk around and i sent several flying down these stairs and each time i did this we would just crack up and when i said this to the priest he just left

so i do not like hearing hypocrites preach gods word and still think they can fulfill their fleshly desires and god wil not know i use to also do out reach work in a gay bar in canberra called the heaven my self and 5 very strong brothers in the lord from diffrent denominations like one was a spirit filled baptist one use to be an open brethren and settled with the church i was going to another from vission fellowship in canberra and sevral from my church would pray for 2hrs and sing some worship songs and then we would pay to enter the club

we would take one pool table to our selves and we would just crack up when a cathlic priest would walk in he would see us preaching or talking and then you see him run out the door very fast i rebuked one cathlic priest who was openly in an embrace with a man on the dance floor and he even left we did this for 7 months straight and not even the bouncers on the door picked on us as i use to be a bouncer my self we had free reign over the club and we wear not afraid or ashamed of the gospel or what christ did for us on the cross

think hard my friend and please as i said do not make no one question their faith you are the one that needs to go over gods word and question who is preaching to you

see how this can get to wear some one else begins to question what you say to another sister in the lord ?

i wil be praying for you from your brother in the lord damien