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I am not riled, I am tired of double standards. Why don't you DEFEND the TRUTH instead of attacking me when I DEFEND not only against personal attacks to my integrity but more importantly to the integrity of a simple biblical declaration being abused in word games huh? TELL me. YOU speak English, tell me, What does this say : John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Does it say, "God thy God", just being poetic prose, which Therese says it means whilst saying that I AM TWISTING THE SCRIPTURES like I were a bad character of dubious intentions, or is it Jesus explaining WHERE He is going and to tell Mary to give the SAME message to the Apostles so THEY would know WHERE He was going to BEFORE He came to see them? Please ANSWER.

Those who try to interpret, or accept man's or demon's interpretation, don't understand because the interpretation for them can change minute to minute, or century to century, or year to year. God says not to interpret. That's so simple, they cannot get it. Just plain read what is written. God reveals the Truth to those seeking Him; not to others. Of course, to those who are not disciples of Jesus, it remains a mystery unknown.

I love this moss....nice! Glad you are growing in grace and humility here.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23 If you asked the average person whether or not they would like to live forever, almost everyone would say “Yes”. If you asked the same people if they would like to receive God’s gift of eternal life, they would probably give you a blank stare. For the average person, “There is no such thing as a free lunch”. Then why should the most precious thing – eternal life – be a free gift? And because such is human reasoning, the vast bulk of humanity is involved with some kind of religion, even if it consists of self-worship. All religions require human effort in order to be accepted by God, and even then, there is no certainty of acceptance. But when we come to the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, we are shocked to find that God literally offers us the gift of eternal life freely. So why is eternal life a free gift and not something to be earned with our own efforts at being righteous, moral and good? 1. We must be as perfect as God (Matthew 5;48) 2. We can never be as perfect as God (Romans 3:9-23) 3. We would all be separated from God unless He did something for us (Romans 3:24-26; 5:6-11) 4. Christ has paid the full penalty for all our sins (2 Corinthians 5:21; 1John 2:1,2). 5. Eternal life is therefore a free gift to those who repent and believe the Gospel (1 John 5:1-13).

Hello. I am wondering if demonic oppression can be somehow passed down through bloodlines or target a specific family. I have tried searching around online but the results have varied quite a bit with a lot of 'interesting' videos and such. I wanted to just talk to some actual people in the end and so I searched for forums that are okay with non-religious people asking questions. This is the background information that has lead me to wondering about this: There have been a lot of issues in both of my bloodlines (paternal and maternal, but especially the paternal line) that in present day are considered to be mental health issues, but some things don't fit quite right, and I haven't had any luck with treatment for my own issues over the years (am 27 now). This is going to be long, apologies, but I never have anyone to talk about this stuff with who I don't think will call me crazy or otherwise mock/judge me. The furthest back I know about on my father's side is my great grandfather. He was harassed by voices telling him to harm others, especially his own family. He committed suicide because he was afraid that he would wind up harming his family due to the voices. He was never diagnosed with schizophrenia, though, and in fact was still holding down a steady job (construction) at the time of his death. His daughter was my paternal grandmother, who has also always been able to function in society, however she would get "attacks" and would scream and lock herself in her room at times. She joined an evangelical church at some point and from then on would never leave her house except to go to church, and the attacks ceased at some point. She has also never been evaluated by a psych professional. Her husband, my paternal grandfather, is similar, in that he has always functioned well in terms of employment, socializing in public and so on, but he has a history of "anger attacks" in which he would become violent and raging out of nowhere, and also isolate himself for weeks at a time. They had three children, my father, uncle and aunt, and all of them have had serious issues, but my father's issues have been the worst by far over the years. Yet for most of his life, it was the same. He held down a job, could appear perfectly normal in public, took care of maintenance around the house, etc. But sometimes it was like he was "possessed" and he would become very violent, perverse and crazy, and would have a wild but dead look in his eyes, very predatory. He was very abusive, and he also traumatized me in regards to religion when I was a child, because he often used religion (the whole family is religious) to justify his abuse. He also taught me that it was blasphemy to think that God would ever do anything kind for me. I once caught a baby turtle, and it was in a place that was an unlikely spot for a baby turtle, and I loved turtles, and so I thought that God had given me the turtle as a gift, and when my father heard this, he became immediately angry and threatened and shamed me for thinking what I did. As a child I didn't analyze all of this very much, but as an adult looking back on it all, it is disturbing and strange. He eventually became an alcoholic and developed alcohol dementia, and became homeless. He always refuses any help (like finding him a rehab center who will accept him) and gets nasty of attitude with others who want to help, I don't even know where he is right now because once again he has run away to be homeless and drunk. For my mother's side, my great grandmother was wild and malignant/manipulative, she often had affairs with married men and tried to be a home wrecker. One of these affairs resulted in my grandmother. My grandmother also seemed to be harassed by something and turned to religion for help. She became very religious. However to this day, she hears the voices of both demons and angels (according to her), and also claims to have seen angels. Some psych professionals would consider some of her experiences to have been psychosis, but again she has always been able to function, work, be social, etc and doesn't engage in any destructive behaviors. My grandfather seems to be completely normal and is a total sweetheart. They had three children, my mother, and then another uncle and aunt. My uncle hasn't shown any signs of issues, nor has my aunt. My mother is a bit narcissistic but overall very high-functioning. She was religious when she met my father as high school "sweet hearts", but was also traumatized away from religion by my father / her husband. Well now I have also been dealing with strange and horrible things for years, and have been through the mental health system multiple times with no luck as far as getting better. Recently I have been thinking about my experiences, my family history and my upbringing regarding religion. I think the church we grew up in may have been corrupted. This is going to sound nuts, I had a hard time talking about it even to a therapist. But for one I was never baptized like the other children and for no apparent reason. I was treated like an outcast for the most part but didn't understand why. My father's views on religion were very warped (that I can see in retrospect) such as trying to justify racism using the Bible, as one of many examples. However his parents (my grandparents) held high sway and leadership in the church. They also did an animal sacrifice every spring, where they sacrificed a large pig from a local farm, but I can't remember why we did this. They made it into a party with games, and since I was a kid, I mostly just remember the games, to be honest. Plus, my two sets of grandparents tried to arrange to have their three children (each) marry each other, as though they wanted to merge the bloodlines completely. Like my mother's brother married my father's sister out of pressure, but the youngest set, my mother's sister and my father's brother, both wound up leaving the state as soon as they were able and never came back. I considered all of this stuff to be the results of mental illness and such, until I started to develop the issues, myself. Even though it's very creepy and stressful, I am able to understand a lot more what my father and other family members may have been experiencing. I get voices inside of my mind that are very antagonizing, and I also get intrusive images in my mind often of things that are just horrible, I don't even want to go into details about it, but it's just horrible and I don't understand how my brain even comes up with these things. There was one thing that I thought my mind had made up completely, but weeks later by chance I stumbled upon it online and realized that it was real, and that really shook me up wondering how did I know about it when I didn't know about it. I also get strong obsessions with supernatural things and wind up feeling completely nuts. I also often feel like there is something attached to me and watching me, something malignant, and sometimes I feel like I am being physically influenced, like it will feel like something is gripping my shoulder very hard, or parts of my body will get burning sensations. Now I consider myself pretty rational and open-minded, so when I was told that I have a mental illness, I was basically like yeahp, makes sense, runs in the family. But over the years I have noticed that what I experience is not like stereotypical mental illness. For one, I always have insight when it is happening, and I am able to reality test and walk/talk myself through it. I also have insight/awareness in that most people wouldn't believe what I experience or would just think it is crazy, so I know enough not to talk about it with people (aside from professionals) and also not to let any behaviors of mine reflect my disturbances in front of others. Also when I interact with the entities, they are intelligent and make sense. They often want to debate deeper things but their views are more psychopathic in nature. They also try to motivate me to harm my loved ones, which always makes me thing of my great grandfather would committed suicide. In addition, I've never really had any super out-there stereotypical psychotic beliefs, I just experience antagonism, harassment and so on from perceived entities. Sometimes I get worn down by them and I can feel my personality and thoughts start shifting. One therapist thought this was DID/alters but that didn't fit me, either, unless my entire "DID system" was a bunch of evil sickos who make no effort to hide themselves from me, which isn't typical for DID. I also haven't been responsive to medications or "EMDR" and such. I have also seen them looking at me through my own eyes in the mirror, not any Hollywood crap, but just seeing them in terms of like, seeing that it's not my soul in the mirror, in my eyes, and that it is malignant. It has been so frustrating and confusing. All of this has made me think of all the people in my family who had these severe mental health symptoms, yet were able to function without any medication or anything, with the exception of my father when he turned to drinking and damaged his brain. I've just had the notion nagging me lately that this is something that is more spiritual in nature, and that may be haunting my entire bloodline. Even though I haven't been religious since my childhood, I have had the thought like, "Even if it might not be real, what is the harm in trying something like being saved or baptized?" But the problem is that I literally can't even go that route. If I were to try to talk to God, my throat would seize up. Even trying to read about this stuff makes me feel like something is grabbing the muscles in my neck/shoulder and I get burning sensations. I would feel terrified to go to a church. I feel like if God exists then he probably hates me. I think this was confirmed because I read that if you blaspheme against God it is game-over, and when I was a kid, in a moment of anger over my father, I said something that was definitely blaspheme against God. The entities remind me of this frequently and that I cannot be "saved". Sorry this was so long and all over the place. If you read all that, thank you so much for your patience. Do you think this sounds like a possible spiritual/demonic problem? I feel so lost and confused at this point in my life and don't know what to believe, I feel a combination of numb and scared most of the time. What would you advise a person to do if they literally can't pray or say anything out-loud against demons, or anything like that, do to a paralyzing, seizing fear? Also do you think it's true that I could never be saved now, since I verbally lashed out in anger against God when I was a child (and it was some foul language)?

I understand this is how you interpret this. I disagree. Peace.

Hi Bro FrescoJoe, I agree we are very close to the Lord`s return. And yes the Biblical calculations are for Israel. Marilyn.

You are NOT a nobody; you are a one of a kind miracle wrought by the Most High God. He showed you this because He decided you are His. I envy you. Please treasure what you have been shown.

Eternal life is not free...... Jesus paid a terrible price for it.

Ok, not sure what you mean by Pharisaic notions about the role of Israel in the Abrahamic promises. I think the role of Israel in Abrahamic promises is pretty clear. God promised Abraham a chosen son, Isaac. Isaac also had a chosen son named Jacob, who was renamed Israel. God promised Abraham land which went thru Isaac and Jacob. God promised that his linage, thru Isaac and Jacob would be the line of the Messiah. And God promised that Abraham would be the father of many nations, which I believe includes to physical nations and one spiritual nation. The spiritual nation is called the sons of Abraham. The children of Israel have the forefathers of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. All believers in Jesus are sons of Abraham. The children of Israel are sons of Israel/Jacob. Unfortunately, I think you throw around the term Pharisaic way to much.

We are believers in Jesus, we don't believe in luck we believe in being blessed.

Yes God is our real Father. And I would respectfully ask that when referring to God the Creator of the universe you use a capital G. He is not a god (more the one) But God the true One and only God. You will most likely never hear an audible voice but you will know beyond a shadow of a doubt when He speaks to yours to your heart. The Holy Spirit will always make Himself known to you. When you pray what do you ask for? Do you pray in His Will or do you just ask for things in amiss. He will not always give you what you want, but He will always give you what you need. Please understand too that you do not have to use the King James Version of the Bible. Get a version that is easy for you to understand. I myself use the New King James version. God can and will speak to you through other versions. Just be open to His Voice and know that He is God.

Something's wrong - I would report it.

Miguel, Welcome. Those equations are not found in the Bible so you will have to explain their relevance.

other one, Jesus saw satan fall from heaven to the earth. I'm sorry but I think you've gotten so wrapped up in the demonic realm that at times you've been listening to the wrong voices and they are leading you astray.

Thanks dude I believe that that is a fitting piece of the puzzle. God bless you.

That context is one of the saddest chapters in the Bible to me. It's where God has been so betrayed. For all His labor in loving Israel, He asks for his wages and what does He get in return?.... 30 pieces of silver. Zec 11:12-13 Then I said to them, "If it seems good to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them." And they weighed out as my wages thirty pieces of silver. (13) Then the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"—the lordly price at which I was priced by them. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD, to the potter. In two chapters earlier, God has sent them their true Shepherd... Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your king is coming to you; righteous and having salvation is he, humble and mounted on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. The True Shepherd they reject and repay God's love by murdering his Son. That's what the 30 pieces of silver were for. That's all He was worth to them. You can feel the anguish and sadness of God being betrayed. Even from Judas's kiss, by the hand of His people, the Jews, whom He died for. Mat 26:14-16 Then one of the twelve, whose name was Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests (15) and said, "What will you give me if I deliver him over to you?" And they paid him thirty pieces of silver. (16) And from that moment he sought an opportunity to betray him. Because of this rejection, He delivers them into the hands of a 'worthless shepherd.' We know who he'll be. He's been announced over and over again in scripture. The next chapter, interestingly, Israel gets attacked by all the nations. We know from other verses that the nations are led by the antichrist. He's even going to punish the the evil shepherd. In one verse, He installs him and in the next verse, He then sets out to punish him for being evil too. Zec 11:16 For behold, I am raising up in the land a shepherd who does not care for those being destroyed, or seek the young or heal the maimed or nourish the healthy, but devours the flesh of the fat ones, tearing off even their hoofs. Zec 11:17 "Woe to my worthless shepherd, who deserts the flock! May the sword strike his arm and his right eye! Let his arm be wholly withered, his right eye utterly blinded!" What's astounding to me is that after His rejection He still loves them and has not ultimately abandoned them. He gives them justice and then remembers His love for them and becomes their true shepherd again. Zec 9:16-17 On that day the LORD their God will save them, as the flock of his people; for like the jewels of a crown they shall shine on his land. (17) For how great is his goodness, and how great his beauty! Grain shall make the young men flourish, and new wine the young women. Oh, the mercy of God!! May we love as He loves. In John, Jesus contrasts worthless shepherds with Himself. Joh 10:10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. (11) I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. (12) He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. (13) He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. (14) I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, The 'thief' fits the definition of a false christ or antichrist.

1st Seal Reveals: Parousia/Being-Near of Christ : False Christs Arise True Disciples : False Prophets 2nd Seal Reveals: Shields of Faith : Violence Escapes : Murders 3rd Seal Reveals: Lord's Provision : Famine Wealth in Common : Poverty-Amidst-Wealth 4th Seal Reveals: Healing : Pestilence Order : Chaos Stability: Quaking 5th Seal Reveals: Shielded from the Fire : Martyrs of the Faith 6th Seal Reveals: Great Earthquake, Heaven : Great Earthquake, Earth Every Eye Sees Him The Elect Gather/Unite and Ascend : Israel Looks Upon and Mourns : The Heathen Scatter and Hide The 144,000 Israelites Are Light-Sealed in their Foreheads The Elect, their Garments Having Been Purified, Appear Before the Throne

I think you missed the point of my question.

Because we are told in many Scriptures that this child Jesus "will rule all nations with a rod of iron" (Rev 12:5). There is nothing metaphorical about that prophecy since it pertains to the Millennial reign of Christ on earth. The "rod of iron" is Christ's absolute and strict rule over every nation. Normally a sceptre represents the absolute authority of a monarch. The rod of iron represents a severe sovereign.

why is the child not also a metaphor placed among other metaphors?

Interesting. Where is the scripture to support this? The woman is Israel. Whether or not she is a harlot here is a good point. We know that she started out a young bride and later became a harlot. Jeremiah 2:2 "Go and proclaim in the hearing of Jerusalem, Thus says the LORD, I remember the devotion of your youth, your love as a bride, how you followed me in the wilderness, in a land not sown... 20. "For long ago you broke your yoke and burst your bonds; and you said, 'I will not serve.' Yea, upon every high hill and under every green tree you bowed down as a harlot. It is important to understand the two Israel's within Israel. One spiritual and one fleshly. Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, God knows His real people on earth. Zion is the deeper prophetic true nation of God chosen in Israel>Jerusalem, but you say," So Israel cannot be Zion. " I don't think is correct and not based on scripture. Jerusalem/Israel was intended to be Zion on earth. The daughters of Zion are all going to be saved and so will Jerusalem which represents God's kingdom on earth. That is why is He is going to purify it for His name's sake. Zion will be established as God's city on earth. It does identify with Israel and Jerusalem as you can see below. Psa_51:18 Do good to Zion in your good pleasure; build up the walls of Jerusalem; Psa_69:35 For God will save Zion and build up the cities of Judah, and people shall dwell there and possess it; Psa_74:2 Remember your congregation, which you have purchased of old, which you have redeemed to be the tribe of your heritage! Remember Mount Zion, where you have dwelt. Psa_76:2 His abode has been established in Salem, his dwelling place in Zion. Psa_78:68 but he chose the tribe of Judah, Mount Zion, which he loves. Psa_87:2 the LORD loves the gates of Zion more than all the dwelling places of Jacob. Psa_102:13 You will arise and have pity on Zion; it is the time to favor her; the appointed time has come. Psa_149:2 Let Israel be glad in his Maker; let the children of Zion rejoice in their King! Isa_3:16 The LORD said: Because the daughters of Zion are haughty and walk with outstretched necks, glancing wantonly with their eyes, mincing along as they go, tinkling with their feet, Isa_4:4 when the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning. Isa_10:12 When the Lord has finished all his work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, he will punish the speech of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the boastful look in his eyes. Isa_10:32 This very day he will halt at Nob; he will shake his fist at the mount of the daughter of Zion, the hill of Jerusalem. Isa_30:19 For a people shall dwell in Zion, in Jerusalem; you shall weep no more. He will surely be gracious to you at the sound of your cry. As soon as he hears it, he answers you. Isa_31:9 His rock shall pass away in terror, and his officers desert the standard in panic," declares the LORD, whose fire is in Zion, and whose furnace is in Jerusalem. Isa_33:20 Behold Zion, the city of our appointed feasts! Your eyes will see Jerusalem, an untroubled habitation, an immovable tent, whose stakes will never be plucked up, nor will any of its cords be broken. Isa_59:20 "And a Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who turn from transgression," declares the LORD. ...

The child is Jesus. Dragon tried to devour it, caught up to heaven, to rule the nations with a rod of iron... Metaphors do not have to include everybody. The personification of Israel as a woman or Satan as a father or dragon are the metaphors. The child is not. It would be like me saying, " My car is a dragon that flies over the mountains breathing fire." The care is literal where everything else is metaphor.

I just finished, almost, reading Jeremiah too, and I was thinking like your closestfriendnt recently said, and then noticed it sounded also like in Revelation as you posted above but didn't think much more of because I didn't think anything would really click. The more you read the more things seem to come together. It's a big book.

Jeremiah 25:11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. Jeremiah 25:15 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it. Jeremiah 25:16 And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them. Jeremiah 25:17 Then took I the cup at the LORD'S hand, and made all the nations to drink, unto whom the LORD had sent me: Jeremiah 25:18 To wit, Jerusalem, and the cities of Judah, and the kings thereof, and the princes thereof, to make them a desolation, an astonishment, an hissing, and a curse; as it is this day; Now the nations who will serve the King of Babylon for 70 years are all listed here; Jeremiah 25:19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, and his servants, and his princes, and all his people; Jeremiah 25:20 And all the mingled people, and all the kings of the land of Uz, and all the kings of the land of the Philistines, and Ashkelon, and Azzah, and Ekron, and the remnant of Ashdod, Jeremiah 25:21 Edom, and Moab, and the children of Ammon, Jeremiah 25:22 And all the kings of Tyrus, and all the kings of Zidon, and the kings of the isles which are beyond the sea, Jeremiah 25:23 Dedan, and Tema, and Buz, and all that are in the utmost corners, Jeremiah 25:24 And all the kings of Arabia, and all the kings of the mingled people that dwell in the desert, Jeremiah 25:25 And all the kings of Zimri, and all the kings of Elam, and all the kings of the Medes, Jeremiah 25:26 And all the kings of the north, far and near, one with another, and all the kingdoms of the world, which are upon the face of the earth: and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them. Jeremiah 25:27 Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you. Jeremiah 25:28 And it shall be, if they refuse to take the cup at thine hand to drink, then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Ye shall certainly drink. Jeremiah 25:32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth. Jeremiah 25:33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground. So after the 70 years is fulfilled, all these nations will be punished. Every single nation of the earth did not serve the old King of Babylon, but do today. So instead of trying to use man's wisdom explaining it with history, it just doesn't fit this prophecy. I am looking at this through God's eyes, he is giving the specifics here and he says "all the kingdoms of the world" which are "upon the face of the earth". So when the 70 years are up, all these nations will be punished. I am trying to show that it is easy to put prophecy into the past, and miss what God is saying about the future, because the eyes only catch certain parts, and miss the rest of what the chapter is speaking of. It's easy to do, I've done it myself. Revelation 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Revelation 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

Here are some factuals from the same book of Jeremiah. The Nations round, about; Jeremiah 27: from the bigining. The Lord said to Jeremiah, to make yokes and bonds and put them upon thy neck, and sent them to the Kings of Edom, Moab, Ammon, Tyrous, Zidon, And tell the that I have given all your lands to the King of Babylon Nabuchudenezzar, and All your Nations shall served him and his Sons. And the Nation that will not served him, it will be destroyed by me, said the Lord. And for The Kingdom of Juda and their Kings, because the have served other Gods, I sent Nabuchudenezzar king of Babylon to destroy them, and take them captives, the walls shall fall and the temple will destroyed, by the Nations who are allied with the King of Babylon, the Chaldeans, the Medes, the Assyrians, the numerous smaller other Nations of the regions round about. Jeremia was in Jerusalem talking to all the people, And the priest, with their prophets and the Elders try to Kill him, for telling them that the Lord has sent the King of Babylon together with his Alies the other Nations from the regions round about to destroyed them and take them captives to Babylon. In the books of II Kings chapter 24: and 25: are recorder all the factual events as they happen. First Jerusalem and the round about regions were under the Nation of the South "Egypt", and later the Nations of the North, with the king of Babylon Nabuchudenezzar and the Chaldeans and all the other Nations round about as their alies destroyed Jerusalem and the wall, and the Temple, and destroyed, Juda and the Nations round about.

This passage is both historical and prophetic. Judah did go into captivity, and at the end of 70 years came out of captivity. Babylon was replaced by Medo-Persia, but since Babylon and Mystery Babylon are found on earth just before the Second Coming of Christ, there is a future judgement of Babylon (hence "perpetual desolations").

Ok let me try again; Jeremiah 25:1 The word that came to Jeremiah concerning all the people of Judah in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that was the first year of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon; Jeremiah 25:9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, (What family's?) saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land (what land?), and against the inhabitants thereof (who's inhabitants?), and against all these nations round about (what nations?), and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. So can someone please tell me who all the family's of the north are who came with the king of Babylon against this land to destroy, and also to destroy all the nations about, (which nations?) and when were these nations utterly destroyed and made perpetual desolations if they still exist & operate today? This is all I am basically asking. Now something interesting I noticed in Daniel. Daniel 1:1 In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it. Daniel 1:2 And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with part of the vessels of the house of God: which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the vessels into the treasure house of his god. In Jeremiah 25, Jerusalem has already been beseiged.. So why prophesy it should it come when it already happened a year before? And how does this have a dual meaning? Is there something that I am missing?

Did someone say, "donuts?"

LOL, nah, I'd definitely have no interest if it was about donuts .. Well I'll just get straight to the point & will just answer the question straight up .. 1948 - 2018. (thereabouts) Israel's time to worship the king of Babylon (the Great) is up around 2018. Doesn't necessarily mean she'll be attacked in 2018 in my opinion, but for every year after 2018, expect that attack to come at any time.

Gen.16:9-12 The Angel Of The Lord Told Hagar That God Would Multiply Her Descendants Exceedingly So That They Should Not Be Numbered. Her Son Ishmael? Would Be A Wild Man His Hand Would Be Against Every Man. And Every Man's Hand Against Him. - The Multitude Of This Prophetic Legacy Continues...

Abraham had only one Son and he love him dearly, and had dreams about him that one day he will inherit his wealth, Abraham loved his Son for the rest of his life. This all happen not only before the circumcision, but also at the time of the circumcision, later on Abraham intercede for his only Son to God, and all this happen before Sarah even had conceive. After Isaak was born, and the death of Sarah, Abraham had twelve Sons, and the scripture called them Prince. Ismael was one, but here we have twelve Prince with the same blessing upon them as Abrahams first born Ismael. And all this happens before Jesus Christ, who died for all, who gives the same blessings equally and without mesure to all his children, not only to the ones from his chosen wife, but to the children from all the other wifes from among the other Nations. Jesus has many Wifes, and the children from the Gentile wifes they are a lot more, than the children from the chosen wife. Just like Abraham, his children from the other wifes from the neibours around him, and the Egyptian, are a lot more than his children from the chosen one. And the same for Jacob, his children from the foreign wifes, they are a lot more, than the children of the chosen wife. And Jesus Christ him self he carried the blood of numerous gentile women. Who is against Jesus Christ? Who is not going to receive the blessing of God, this is the eternal life, and that not according to genetic inheritance but according to their unbelieve in the Savior.

We can avoid leading our selfs in deferent directions by doing what you have suggested, I like the way you put it "Identifying the players", the parties that are involved, this is also part of studying the context. Like the story of Adam and Eva, they have introduce the apple, and all the time I had come to believed that they literaly had something to eat from a tree. and that it was literaly the tree of life in the Garden, with ready fruit to eat, something like that. Then when I began to study the specifics, and identifying the players, I notice something that had to do with Jesus Christ. He said to Nicodemus, when you believe in me after you see me on the Cross, just they way Moses lifted up the serpent in the dessert, and the people were invited to look to him for their healing, that's it, the serpent on the tree, was rediating Life , life came from the serpent to those who had be bitten, while yet alive, they had death in them. Nicodemus new that he was alive not only the way everyone in the world is alive, but alive also to the Lord God, as he was not only a Jew, but he was obedient to the Mosaic Law. Nicodemus also new, because of the Human inheritance that hey were seperated from God and that the Law of Moses could no do away with the seperation and remove the death in them. Then one day later on, he heard Peter inviting the people to look to the one who had been lifted up on the tree, to have LIFE in them, that the life comes from him,then Nicodemus must have remember the words of Jesus that the life will come to people from him, but first he must be lifted up on the tree, The fruit of the tree of life, that 's what Peter was doing inviting people to eat from the tree of life. The only way for man to eat from the tree of life, it was for the tree of life to enter our world. God made the way that the tree of life to come to us.

Yes I recognized that instantly too .. also note : Jeremiah 25:9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. So yes, the Lord was bringing Neb and his northern (north of Israel that is) vassal nations with him to attack .. I had to go over it a few times to make sure I understood where Sister was coming from, and THEN comparing the rest of her personal narrative I realized it was just the way she worded it and not what she meant .. sometimes we don't always clarify the specifics so as to keep it as short as possible since most don't like long posts / explanations .. after reading what else she said that is .. So naughty Sister .. please be a little more specific when identifying the 'players' instead of over generalizing .. which causes 'gaps'.

All the families AND Nabuchudenezzar (this is one unit together, the Nabuchudenezzar as the leader and his allies, the families of the north, not the families of the south, like Egypt, Ethiopia, and e.t . ) "Nabuchudenezzar my servant". The Lord is saying that he has recruit Nabuchudenezzar, for a mission, he has propose to do something and he has given the go ahead to Nabuchudenezzar, that he is not going to oppose Nabuchudenezzar in his plans, and that he the Lord is his allie. That he has given Nabuchudenezzar his plan, what to do and how to do it, and that he will prosper Nabuchudenezzar in this mission. The Lord is saying that he is with Nabuchudenezzar in this matter and not Israel. Go and ask a Rabi.

Hi Serving I stopped because I think I must be on everyone's ignore list! If I did a post about donuts, I'm sure it would attract more interest. No-one has the faintest clue what I'm on about, so be my guest.

Hi Sister, Yes I agree. I too noticed the duality hidden within those verses a while back myself. Would you like me to answer the question as to the timing of the 70 years according to my understanding? Or do you want to keep adding more evidence til then?

Who is the true King of Babylon? So when God is addressing Nebuchadrezzar, who is he really speaking to? Who was standing behind him? And if all the nations are serving the King of Babylon for 70 years, and it DID NOT HAPPEN, because all those nations did rise again, and were not made perpetual desolations, then when does the 70 years start, and when does it end? Jeremiah 25:12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

Jeremiah 25:29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts. Jeremiah 25:30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth. Jeremiah 25:31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD. Jeremiah 25:32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth. Jeremiah 25:33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground. Jeremiah 25:34 Howl, ye shepherds, and cry; and wallow yourselves in the ashes, ye principal of the flock: for the days of your slaughter and of your dispersions are accomplished; and ye shall fall like a pleasant vessel. Jeremiah 25:35 And the shepherds shall have no way to flee, nor the principal of the flock to escape. Jeremiah 25:36 A voice of the cry of the shepherds, and an howling of the principal of the flock, shall be heard: for the LORD hath spoiled their pasture. Jeremiah 25:37 And the peaceable habitations are cut down because of the fierce anger of the LORD. Jeremiah 25:38 He hath forsaken his covert, as the lion: for their land is desolate because of the fierceness of the oppressor, and because of his fierce anger.

Well no one is arguing, so I guess you can all see that this chapter is yet to be fulfilled.

Keep reading, it will get clearer Jeremiah 25:15 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it. Jeremiah 25:16 And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them. Jeremiah 25:17 Then took I the cup at the LORD'S hand, and made all the nations to drink, unto whom the LORD had sent me: Jeremiah 25:18 To wit, Jerusalem, and the cities of Judah, and the kings thereof, and the princes thereof, to make them a desolation, an astonishment, an hissing, and a curse; as it is this day; Jeremiah 25:19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, and his servants, and his princes, and all his people; Jeremiah 25:20 And all the mingled people, and all the kings of the land of Uz, and all the kings of the land of the Philistines, and Ashkelon, and Azzah, and Ekron, and the remnant of Ashdod, Jeremiah 25:21 Edom, and Moab, and the children of Ammon, Jeremiah 25:22 And all the kings of Tyrus, and all the kings of Zidon, and the kings of the isles which are beyond the sea, Jeremiah 25:23 Dedan, and Tema, and Buz, and all that are in the utmost corners, Jeremiah 25:24 And all the kings of Arabia, and all the kings of the mingled people that dwell in the desert, Jeremiah 25:25 And all the kings of Zimri, and all the kings of Elam, and all the kings of the Medes, Jeremiah 25:26 And all the kings of the north, far and near, one with another, and all the kingdoms of the world, which are upon the face of the earth: and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them. Jeremiah 25:27 Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you. Jeremiah 25:28 And it shall be, if they refuse to take the cup at thine hand to drink, then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Ye shall certainly drink.

Hi Spock Yes at a quick glance we would presume it is speaking of that. But look deeper. All the families of the North? When did this happen? When did God bring Babylon against all these nations? When where they destroyed? Babylon which is Iraq now still exists, so do all the nations round about. Are they not still rejoicing? and are they are not still getting married? It still exists and people are living there doing all of the above. Babylon was taken over by the Medes & Persians, yet they came up and still exist to this day. According to this prophesy they should of been no more after the 70 years, and made a perpetual desolation? Another question? What nations or great kings served the King of Babylon for 70 years? Medo Persia did not serve that king, nor did Greece, Egypt or Assyria? Only Israel was forced to serve Babylon. So God must be speaking of something else to come or this prophecy is in error if we say it was fulfilled.

I can name of a lot. But beyond that, I can, and have, named off enough contradictions between the book of enoch and the Bible to say, without a shadow of a doubt that this book is not only not canon, but heresy. And that, is in the end all that matters.

You quoting some unnamed scholars is not proof sir! Even if you named everyone it is still not proof. Look up the definition of proof and facts.

Nice find. My favorite Old Testament archaeological discovery happened in the 1800's -the very fortunate finding of the Taylor Prism, which miraculously mentions King Hezekiah ( ANET p.288- "Ancient Near Eastern Texts" relating to the Old Testament; J.B. Pritchard ,1969. Princeton University). It is my favorite O.T. find because it is certain extra-biblical evidence of Hezekiah. All praise and glory belongs forever to Jesus ,who is YHWH God the Son, and to his Father YHWH, and to the Holy Spirit YHWH. "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." - Matthew 28:19,Bible. This verse clearly proves that Jesus, and the Father, and the Holy Ghost are the only Persons of the Godhead, and they are One YHWH God. All the capable and eminent Greek scholars , including Professor Gustav Deissmann (he discovered that the New Testament was written in Koine Greek) knew with certainty, through their study of the Bible in its original languages , that Jesus of Nazareth is Almighty God.

Yes, we see it on the nightly news. They call themselves ISIS.

- Interesting thanks.

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In 2 Esdras (a book of the Protestant Apocrypha) 6:7-10, we find something similar: 7 I answered and said, "What will be the dividing of the times? Or when will be the end of the first age and the beginning of the age that follows?" 8 He said to me, "From Abraham to Isaac, because from him were born Jacob and Esau, for Jacob's hand held Esau's heel from the beginning. 9 Now Esau is the end of this age, and Jacob is the beginning of the age that follows. 10 The beginning of a person is the hand, and the end of a person is the heel; seek for nothing else, Ezra, between the heel and the hand, Ezra!" Esau and Ishmael intermarried and mixed their bloodlines, so one cannot tell the difference between them in our day. Both lived in what is currently Saudi Arabia.