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Dear Butero. Some of the words and expressions you use in this thread express a fair bit of tension and criticism. I pray that you will simmer down and find some peace within yourself again. Let go and let God.

I think people who have tattoos, who were formerly nonbelievers, have no issue with God. I would not recommend tatoos for believers as it is evidence of vanity. The same could be said for long hair. I used to have very long hair until I realized the pridefulness that came with it. Long hair would depend on the reasoning. But vanity could be applied to anything. Such as wearing makeup or a nice new suite. I personally think that vanity is more of an state of mind more so then just wearing a new pairs of shoes.

Does God heal? Absolutely! Does He heal upon demand at precisely 7pm Mon-Thur? No! He is GOD...Not a side show. He does not need a flamboyant preacher who passes around an offering plate to help Him heal if/when He chooses to.

Lol I wouldnt want me as president either.

I would immediately think of a plan of action but before I could carry it out somebody would point out that I am not a U.S. citizen, nor was I born there. I would then tell them that having an illegal president has never been a problem before so why worry about it now?

Everything you have said is private opinion and not scriptural. Scripture never, ever grouped the Mosaic commands into those three groups. (As a matter of fact, many laws would cross all three boundaries). The Mosaic covenant was given to the children of Israel, for all generations. As long as the Jewish people exist, the children are born obligated to the Mosaic covenant for their entire lives. The only thing which can release them from that obligation before God, is accepting Jesus as Messiah, Lord and Savior. He fulfilled the Mosaic law for those who believe, freeing them to accept the New Covenant. So, the Mosaic covenant is still in existence, and it is a violation of the Mosaic covenant to pick and choose which laws to observe. According to scripture, you are violating the Mosaic law by picking and choosing, which is taking away laws. Under the New Covenant, all scripture is good for teaching and doctrine, which would mean the OT and Mosaic law is good for teaching. If you read the Mosaic law and learn something about Gods desires, and apply it to your life, then the scripture in light of the New Covenant is being used properly. But if you apply some of the Mosaic law to your life, picking and choosing which ones you think should apply, you are violating the Mosaic covenant by adding to or taking away from the 613 laws. 2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

Where the Word of God specifically locates the rapture is shown here. Rev 4:1

Note that the only thing that will happen in the twinkling of an eye at Jesus' 2nd coming will be the resurrection (if dead) and the changing (if alive) of obedient believers into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). Other aspects of the 2nd coming will occur before and after that. The first thing visible to occur at the 2nd coming will be the light from the sun and moon temporarily being blocked from reaching the surface of the earth (Matthew 24:29). And there will be a meteorite shower, falling "stars" (Matthew 24:29). Then the sign of Jesus (possibly the Cross) will appear in the sky and the world will mourn when it realizes that the true Jesus is coming back (Matthew 24:30). Then the world will see Jesus in the clouds of the sky (Matthew 24:30). And the people of the world will wail (Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus is coming in wrath (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9). But before the wrath of the 2nd coming begins (Revelation 19:15-21), all the souls of the dead in Christ, who will all come back with him from the 3rd heaven at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), will descend to the earth where their graves are and their bodies will be physically resurrected (1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6). Then they and all those in Christ who survived the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured (caught up together, gathered together) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17, Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

That's right. Yet the mistaken, pre-tribulation rapture view feels that 1 Thessalonians 5:2 supports the idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation, secret coming of Jesus to rapture the church and begin the tribulation. But not all thieves in the night come secretly, like cat burglars. Some like to rob homes via what is called a home invasion, which is quite obvious, and can involve the thieves not only stealing, but also killing and destroying (John 10:10; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10, Revelation 19:7-21). Jesus' coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2, Matthew 24:43-44, Revelation 16:15) doesn't mean he will come secretly. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16), "with a great sound of a trumpet" (Matthew 24:31). And "as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:27,43,44). "Behold, I come as a thief" (Revelation 16:15), "Behold, he cometh with clouds [1 Thessalonians 4:17]; and every eye shall see him" (Revelation 1:7). Similarly, Jesus' coming as a thief in the night doesn't mean his coming is imminent. For he can't come until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2) means he will come even upon Christians when they aren't expecting him only if they stop watching (staying awake, spiritually) during the tribulation. Compare the if principle of Revelation 3:3. Also, some in the church will still be alive on the earth during the tribulation's final stage, still watching (staying awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). So his 2nd coming won't overtake them like a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:4, Matthew 24:43). Regarding Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief to the unsaved world, when it isn't expecting him (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4, Matthew 24:39), nothing requires the unsaved world will be expecting Jesus' 2nd coming after the tribulation. For during the tribulation, the unsaved world could come to believe his 2nd coming has already happened (Matthew 24:24-26). That is, the unsaved people of the world will have no idea most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming until it happens (Matthew 24:37-39). For they could think the 2nd coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH God had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them. For during the tribulation's 2nd half, the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9), and the power Lucifer will give to the Antichrist to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8), and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36), and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers which Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9). And near the end of the future tribulation, the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the 2 witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the amazing miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected first battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.

Note that Matthew 24:36,42,44 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus can mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). In the context of Matthew 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36); he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it is possible that at a certain point in our future, some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-tribulation and preterist views), then how can we also claim he will come when nobody thinks he will (Matthew 24:44)? Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11). If we claim the first verse means no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim the second verse means no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13). He can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming. Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15). -- That is, Daniel 12:11-12 and Revelation 16:15 could mean that 1,335 literal days after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31), Jesus' 2nd coming will occur, and blessed are those believers who wait and remain obedient until that day. If the literal 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 12:6) will begin when the abomination of desolation is set up, and if the 7 vials of God's wrath will begin on the day after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:15,19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), and if the first 6 vials will be poured out over 30 days, then the 6th vial could be poured out on the 1,290th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11). It is on this 1,290th day that the blessing of Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 16:15 could be given, after the 6th vial has been poured out (Revelation 16:12), encouraging those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time to keep holding on just 45 more days until Jesus' 2nd coming on the 1,335th day. The 45 days could be taken up by the gathering together of the world's armies to Armageddon (Revelation 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) and then their moving south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus' 2nd coming and their total defeat (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

Note that Revelation 4:1 refers only to John the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the first century AD, just as 2 Corinthians 12:2 refers only to Paul the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the first century AD. Neither verse refers to the future rapture of the church only as high as the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Also, no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3, but not mentioned again until Revelation 22, just as no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Romans 16, but not mentioned in Romans chapters 1 to 15. The reason the word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3 is because those chapters refer to 7 literal, first century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11). The church in the general sense will definitely be in the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For believers will definitely be in it (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Also, just as the mistaken, pre-tribulation rapture view admits that Revelation chapters 19 to 22 include references to the church without using the specific word "church", so it should be able to admit that Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can include references to the church without using the specific word "church".

Actually, the Large Hadron Collider could have already detected the spirit realm without scientists yet realizing it, or being able to accept it. For what science is missing, in its search for a "Theory of Everything" which can unify all the physical forces in the universe, is spirit, so that by continuing to exclude the whole idea of spirit, science can never hope to understand the universe at its most fundamental level or what its ultimate origin was: "As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit . . . even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all" (Ecclesiastes 11:5). The relationship between the spiritual and the physical may be analogous to the relationship between energy and matter. Just as the relationship of energy to matter is summarized by the equation e=mc^2, meaning that immense amounts of energy are congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny particle of matter, so the relationship between spirit and energy could theoretically be summarized by the equation s=ec^3, meaning that immense amounts of spirit may be congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny photon of energy. All energy being based on spirit would make sense, for God is a Spirit (John 4:24), and in him everything consists (Colossians 1:17, Acts 17:28). When science's equations regarding such things as the Big Bang singularity, black holes, and quantum entanglement require the inclusion of infinities, these infinities shouldn't be seen as "failures", but as pointers to something which goes beyond the boundaries of the physical, i.e. spirit. If science ever becomes able to describe spirit mathematically using proportional numbers rather than infinities, this could lead to new technologies (e.g. spiritual power plants, spiritual bombs), just as when science became able to describe atomic nuclei mathematically, this led to new technologies (e.g. nuclear power plants, nuclear bombs). Just as energy consists of both particles (photons) and waves (electromagnetic waves) at the same time, so the basis for all energy, spirit, could consist of both particles (spiritons) and waves at the same time. If spirit is equivalent to consciousness, and consciousness consists of logic, emotion, and memory, then spiritual waves could consist of 3 different sine waves (logic waves, emotion waves, and memory waves) which could be interlocked at 60-degree angles, just as electromagnetism consists of two different sine waves (electric waves and magnetic waves) interlocked at a 90-degree angle. But by our current, strictly-physical-based mathematics, a spiritual wave or spiriton would show up in a calculation as an infinity, and so it could be mistakenly rejected by our current science as a "failure". It is possible that by creating a mathematics which involves 5 dimensions of space-time, the apparently infinite value of a spiritual wave or spiriton could be reduced to a proportional value. String Theory has shown that it is mathematically possible that space-time has more than 3 spatial dimensions. Because of observations such as Daniel 5:5, John 20:26b, and Luke 24:31b, the spiritual realm could be a 4th spatial dimension in which spiritual entities are able to move about without being seen by physical entities in our 3 spatial dimensions, because our physical eyes and light as we know it extend in only 3 dimensions. The spiritual dimension would be higher than our 3 dimensions in the same sense that a 3rd dimension is higher than 2 dimensions. And so from the spiritual realm, our physical realm would appear flat, just as from 3 dimensions, something in 2 dimensions appears flat. An entity with access to the spiritual dimension could do such things as enter only part of himself into the physical realm (Daniel 5:5), or suddenly appear in a locked room (John 20:26b), or suddenly disappear (Luke 24:31b). This ability would apply not only to spiritual beings (1 Corinthians 15:44, Luke 24:39), but also to any spiritual wave or particle. If spiritual particles exist, they could turn out to be "the God Particle" of science. While the Large Hadron Collider has reached a high-enough energy level so that a "God Particle" (i.e. a Higgs boson) has manifested itself, its observed qualities might ultimately be able to be described only by equations involving infinite values, so that its qualities and actions could ultimately be seen as "impossible" and "spooky", instead of science finally admitting to the existence of a substance which is spiritual. And spirit wouldn't have to be seen by scientists as some weird, foreign substance, but rather as the most fundamental substance of even their own selves (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And could spirit also be the "dark matter" and "dark energy" which together make up 96% of the universe, but which science can't yet observe directly or explain? The really sad and dangerous thing is that even if science does eventually determine that "the God Particle" is a spiritual particle, which science could come to call the "spiriton", some scientists could still refuse to believe in and submit themselves to YHWH God, saying that the existence of spirit doesn't require that there is one infinite, conscious spirit-being called YHWH God (John 4:24, Mark 12:30, Deuteronomy 6:5). And in its subsequent experiments with spirit, science could come into contact with the evil spirit-being called Lucifer (Satan), who could manifest himself in some future, ultra-high-energy experiment and claim that he is the true, beneficent God of mankind and must be worshipped instead of YHWH. In this way, a nascent spiritual science could be hijacked and employed by Lucifer and his current worshippers as one part of their future deception by which the world will eventually be deceived into consciously and openly worshipping Lucifer (the dragon) and his human son the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") as God (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), instead of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). -- The unity of mankind which will occur at that future time could be like the unity of mankind which occurred at the time of the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:6). And there could even be a future equivalent to the Tower of Babel, which could be built in the literal, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq). For Lucifer could show mankind how to build there a huge tower device, a spiritual machine the size of the Empire State Building which will be able to send into the sky an incredibly powerful spiritual beam analogous to a laser. Near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Lucifer could tell mankind that it will need to employ this huge weapon during an impending battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:14b, Revelation 19:19). Mixing some science fiction with some ancient lies of Gnosticism, Lucifer could tell mankind something like: "YHWH will soon come down to the earth in his gigantic spaceship which is shaped like a Borg Cube [cf. Revelation 21:16]. He is coming to enslave you and turn you all into Borg-like automatons. But this mighty Tower Device will be able to blow his Borg Cube and him to bits with its spiritual ray. Then we can focus the Tower Device on any point of empty space until it burns in space-time a hole, a portal through which I will lead your spirits out of this vile material universe which YHWH made to be our prison. And I will lead you back up into the purely-spiritual realm of the Pleroma [i.e. Heaven], where you can live as gods in bliss, doing what you please, forever, just as you had done with me for all ages past, before we by mistake fell into YHWH's trap of this material universe". Before Jesus' 2nd coming, Lucifer could prove the power of the Tower Device to mankind by letting the Antichrist and his False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20) use it to blow up some large asteroids and even some moons of other planets, so that mankind will go into its battle against YHWH in full confidence that it will be able to destroy him. But when the battle comes, the device won't work against YHWH (cf. Psalms 21:11, KJV). Instead, Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will descend from heaven and take total victory in the battle (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6). It has been claimed that magnetic fields applied to certain areas of the brain can cause a subject who is alone in a room to sense other human-shaped entities in the room. Materialists could explain this as a magnetically-induced spatial displacement of the subject's mental image of his own body. This might be correct. Or in some cases it could involve a magnetically-induced enhancement of the subject's brain so that he can sense spiritual entities, whether a spatially displaced sense of his own spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23), or a spatially correct sense of an external spiritual entity such as a guardian angel (cf. Acts 12:15b), a fallen angel (Ephesians 6:12), a demon (Mark 5:8), or a ghost (Luke 24:37). It is possible that sometime in the future, scientists could magnetically induce something like believers' experience of the Holy Spirit, if by employing functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), scientists are able to find the part of believers' brains which is most active when they are sensing the Holy Spirit (e.g. while they are listening to worship music and worshipping God), and which shows little to no activity when they aren't sensing the Holy Spirit (e.g. while they are listening to a sports talk show). If there is such a part of the brain, scientists could then apply magnetic fields to it while Christian subjects aren't sensing the Holy Spirit, and see if it induces something like a sense of the Holy Spirit in them without any other external stimuli. If scientists manage to do this, it could be employed by the coming Antichrist to try to deceive believers, along with the rest of the world, into worshipping Lucifer (Satan, the dragon), and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), and a speaking image of the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). For what the Antichrist and his False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20) could do is have scientists fashion small (what they could call) "spiritual reality" devices, like the size of a Bluetooth earpiece, that could be easily worn on the head at all times, and that could generate magnetic fields right over the part of the brain which gives people a similar sense of spiritual assurance of truth which the Holy Spirit gives to believers (John 16:13). And these devices could be remotely activated on people's heads by cell phone signals whenever the Antichrist or the False Prophet is speaking to the world their false doctrines, so that the people of the world will get an overwhelming sense that what the Antichrist and False Prophet are saying is the absolute truth. Or, if most of the world will have no need of such devices because of the False Prophet's deceiving miracles (Revelation 13:13-14a, Revelation 19:20) and the "strong delusion" sent by God (2 Thessalonians 2:11), the use of the devices could be focused on believers, and any other people, who refuse to follow the Antichrist. Such believers could be arrested and placed in "reform camps" where they will be strapped into chairs and forced to watch long speeches by the Antichrist and the False Prophet while the devices are active on the believers' heads, with the hope that eventually the believers will come to accept the Antichrist, based on the "good spiritual feelings" which they will get (from the devices) while listening to the speeches. It is vital that believers never base any of their doctrinal beliefs only on spiritual feelings (cf. Proverbs 28:26, Proverbs 14:12). All doctrines must be checked against what God's Word the Bible teaches (2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4; 1 Timothy 4:16). For "the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Timothy 4:1). Jesus said: "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed" (John 8:31b).

It is not often I say "Amen" to a post, but I amen that sentiment.

Tribulation will start once Israel and the Beast make a 7 year pact. Jesus said only Father knows the time of the end. When Father raises His hands and tells His angels, "Enough is enough!" Then the end will come.

Thank you for all you explanations, we have to see when the time comes how this all will work out, Sister said that history is repeating itself and I agree with her,many things happening now have happened before... We have to stand strong in the days we're living in..they are evil but God is powerful and His will be done! Amen Jesus come!

See what I am saying? To God be the Glory With love-in Christ,Kwik Good to hear others see it that way too.

So when Jesus said that He would be "in the heart of the earth" (also called "the lower parts of the earth") for three days and three nights, where exactly was he? And what did Paul mean when he said that at His ascension "He led captivity captive", but first he descended to "the lower parts of the earth"? Do not know, but not sure what that has to do with Abrahams bosom parable. The spiritual world is a different realm right here which we cannot see unless the Lord unveils our eyes. Funny tho because physically Jesus wasn't in the lower parts of the earth but in a cave type of tomb with a stone rolled to cover the entrance.

I know this is an old thread, and I should probably leave it alone, but I am missing something here. I can see the instant part - but does something in that passage say it will be secret?

Blessings Pamelasv I believe as you do,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Amen,,,,,I am also not convinced that the punctuation marks added(Luke 23:43) in the English texts (from the Greek transcripts)may have been placed accurately .........& I don't care to hear anyones"speculation" about this,it would be for another topic,,,,,,let's move it over one word...... See what I am saying? To God be the Glory With love-in Christ,Kwik

What you should ask yourself is, prior to having these instruments would it have been reasonable for someone to doubt that elephants can talk to each other a mile away?

Oldschool. I admit I'm responding without having read all the responses to this thread, I apologize for my laziness. You seem to be Catholic. Yes? My dad's side of the family is Catholic, but my parents divorced when I was 5. I was never raised in the Church, but I came to know about Catholicism later in life (in my 30's when I finally realized that there is a God and He is the God of the Bible). Grandpa was a Polish catholic, he (literally) died staring at the framed picture of the Pope on his TV. I'm still not Catholic but I recognize Catholicism. Anyway...If I understand you corectly...you're saying that to reduce God's Will to a simple matter of relative moral principles is the same thing as having no morality at all (in practice). If that's what you mean I couldn't agree with you more. 1,000% approval, there. 1) There is a God 2) I, and nobody I've ever met (or will meet), is Him 3) God is the Creator of everything physically, spiritually, and morally: His Will is Law (truth) regardless of our personal perspective 4) There is a Truth that remains true regardless of any human perspective Morality is "objectified" by the Creator of everything (God), it isn't "subject" to the will and/or circumstance of any of His creations. If this is what you're saying...I tell you, once more, I agree 1,000%.

So when Jesus said that He would be "in the heart of the earth" (also called "the lower parts of the earth") for three days and three nights, where exactly was he? And what did Paul mean when he said that at His ascension "He led captivity captive", but first he descended to "the lower parts of the earth"?

Correct. Moses did not go to Heaven directly, but probably just like Samuel in the OT appeared on earth briefly from Sheol, Moses would have appeared at the Transfiguration from Sheol. Or if he had been taken up to Heaven, Scripture did not disclose that. Why would you say "nor is it in Heaven" when Scripture plainly tells us that it is the Heaven, in the New Jerusalem? We know that the Tree of Life was (and now is) in "the midst" of Paradise. And we also know that the "third heaven" is the Heaven of God's Throne. Therefore wherever the Tree of Life is now located, so is Paradise, which is in Heaven, and Scripture confirms this: I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2 Cor 12:2-4) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev 2:7) And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: (Rev 22:1-3).

The rapture will be secret and instant 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”[

As many have pointed out, there are very few hints in the Bible of any kind of secret rapture. As a rule, it would be better if Christians would cease making fools of themselve before unbelievers by propagating this kind of conspiracy theories. I'm certainly not pretending to be better, everyone has to keep oneself in check. Lothar's son - Lothars Sohn <<< removed blog link. >>>

yeah! It's the itchy ear syndrome... q-tips and a whole lot of respect for God's Word and you should be fine

I SO agree. Date setting is not a Christian thing to do. We should trust Him to bring about the end when He sees fit.

Jesus gave us signs to watch for so we will know the season is upon us. That is enough for us to know. If we are diligent in our watching, we will know when He draws near and will be about His business.

Since Jesus told us that no one knows the date or the time, it is NOT correct to set dates. We shouldn't do it. In fact, one can say that it is actually an antichristian thing to do.

Because you are wrong. I think this bears repeating.

My date is a date that we are told that we are allowed to know (Mat 24:33) it is the last day for Christ to return and still be able to fullfil the prophecy about the generation not passing we can easily calculate this date we have a start date = 1967.5 (took control of Israel=started God's clock) and we have the duration of this end time generation = 51.6 51.6 was calculated from the names given in Mathew 1:17 yes, there are many durations for a generation I figured that this was the right one to use As it was the one used to accurately predict the rebirth of Israel Even right down to the exact day 1967.5+51.6= 2019.1 = door #1 2019.1+6.9= 2026.0 = door #2 when He MUST arrive in all His Glory this is not a date for the unsaved it is for all who are born again to say we have less than six years to go until we are taken out of the equasion so,,, we need to start a revival now Must? That is a pretty powerful word to be using from your own understanding.

Your My date is a date that we are told that we are allowed to know (Mat 24:33) Thats really funny. Your scripture does not say, nor does any scripture say, that we are allowed to know any date. Your "date" was already wrong once. Why should we listen to you again?

My date is a date that we are told that we are allowed to know (Mat 24:33) it is the last day for Christ to return and still be able to fullfil the prophecy about the generation not passing we can easily calculate this date we have a start date = 1967.5 (took control of Israel=started God's clock) and we have the duration of this end time generation = 51.6 51.6 was calculated from the names given in Mathew 1:17 yes, there are many durations for a generation I figured that this was the right one to use As it was the one used to accurately predict the rebirth of Israel Even right down to the exact day 1967.5+51.6= 2019.1 = door #1 2019.1+6.9= 2026.0 = door #2 when He MUST arrive in all His Glory this is not a date for the unsaved it is for all who are born again to say we have less than six years to go until we are taken out of the equasion so,,, we need to start a revival now

Every date setter has been wrong to date. What makes your calculations important to the lost? The saved don't need to know ...

Because you are wrong.

I'm not sure it's wrong to speculate, personally. God gave us the signs to watch for His coming and we know it's within the generation born in 1967. The Bible says no man knows the day or the hour. Steven has speculated on only the year and the month. I like Grant Jeffrey too. The Signature of God is a great book. yes, it was Grant's book Armageddon that showed me to His Light

Can you show me how 14+14+14=51.6? This surely does not compute. I'd say it = 42 but....maybe it's a NEW math? SOME OF MY CALCULATIONS Generation = We are told that there are 14 + 14 + 14 generations from Abraham to Jesus in (Mat 1:17) 14 + 14 + 14 = 42 generations birth of Abraham = - http://www.fondef.com/endofthehour.htm - http://www.israel-a-history-of.com/story-of-abraham.html - http://www.stanford....y/bibchron.html - http://www.catholicdoors.com/bible/history.htm 2,167 is the year for the Birth of Abraham. 2,167 /42 = ------------------------------ 51.595 years = generation,,,

We'll see how many are missing after ~ March 14 next year. Deu_18:22 "When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. sorry, 2019.1 is when the door is this is a door/deadline that we are allowed to know in Mathew 24:33 and this is the time when the Tribulation must begin by and if your like me, you will believe that the pre-Trib rapture must occure before Date setting is futile; even Jesus Himself did not know the exact time. I agree, but in mathew 24:33 He tells us that we can know it is near even at the doors= sounds like a deadline to me we are suppose to know that it is near near to what, near to the door=deadline=last day to fulfill prophecy about it being within the generation

I guess this has absolutely no value to you Matt 25:13 13 "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming. NKJV Love, Steven Sorry This was my mistake I was given this 2020 Vision That showed me how Christ MUST return before the 2019.1 and I was mistaken to take this door as the second door by calculating the beginning of the pre-Trib and minus the 2520 days your Bro, . . . joe

We'll see how many are missing after ~ March 14 next year. Deu_18:22 "When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. sorry, 2019.1 is when the door is this is a door/deadline that we are allowed to know in Mathew 24:33 and this is the time when the Tribulation must begin by and if your like me, you will believe that the pre-Trib rapture must occure before Date setting is futile; even Jesus Himself did not know the exact time.

Have you ever read Revelation?

We'll see how many are missing after ~ March 14 next year. Deu_18:22 "When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. sorry, 2019.1 is when the door is this is a door/deadline that we are allowed to know in Mathew 24:33 and this is the time when the Tribulation must begin by and if your like me, you will believe that the pre-Trib rapture must occure before

Can you show me how 14+14+14=51.6? This surely does not compute. I'd say it = 42 but....maybe it's a NEW math?

Oh so right candice. Yes!

I agree whole hearted I try to use what He gives me towards helping His Kingdom

Oh so right candice.

the 7 years of tribulation begins when Israel signs the peace treaty

Rev 4:01

One can not know the day or the hour unless you are God. S

the Tribulation starts when Israel signs the 7 year peace treaty before the 2020 Vision of when the first door closes