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Habakkuk 1:5 “Look among the nations, and see; wonder and be astounded. For I am doing a work in your days that you would not believe if told.

You are my hiding place and my shield; I hope in Your word. Psalm 119:114

I went through that too. I was raised with the traditional view and was shocked that alternate takes even existed, and was then even more shocked on digging into it all that the arguments weren't just nonsense. I share this view, too. As much as I'd like to believe in it universalism strikes me as the least sound and the most likely to be wishful thinking. But remember when Jesus concluded a parable saying that a servant who knows their master's will and doesn't do it will be beaten with many stripes, while a servant who doesn't know any better receives few stripes? I do feel like that fits into the picture somehow.

After reading a book called "Hell: Three Christian Views of God's Final Solution" (by Steve Gregg), where he goes into depth in scripture on these 3 views, I realized how shallow my understanding had been. Now my thinking is probably something of a mix between the traditional (eternal conscious torment) and annihilation. But as you said @AnOrangeCat, I don't place much weight on that - good enough to know it's a very undesirable place/state to find oneself in! (BTW - the 3rd view is universalism, which I think is the least likely. While it's nice to imagine that somehow this is true, and maybe God does extend some mercy beyond what we think, there's just too much in scripture saying that some souls will not be saved.)

Psalm 8 8 O Lord, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; 8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. 9 O Lord our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. 1 Thessalonians 5:11

Like yourself I have mixed feelings about this, and "church" is also a pet peeve for me. Sometimes these words are things that just weren't named as such in the Bible, yet the concepts are clearly discussed (Trinity and rapture are two such cases). Hell specifically, though... I think maybe it made sense at the time. When Christian missionaries first came across the Germanic and Norse people I could see Hell being used as a starting point and a point of comparison. "Yes, we have this terrible afterlife place too, but this is how it's different and how you avoid going there." being the gist of it. Whatever the term used to mean has pretty much been subsumed by the Christian usage of the word. This kind of thing happens as languages age. Words mutate, meanings change, some become more socially acceptable or less. It's a natural thing but it's probably happening at an accelerated rate now. Both Tartarus and Hades are of Greek pagan origin, yet were used by Jesus and the apostles in a manner similar to the way I imagine Hell was used for the Germanic peoples. At the end of the day I think the most important thing is to understand what was being conveyed and to convey that to our audience.

Why? Unbelief. They have not seen God, and have no faith. "Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” Thanks, Pat

Isn't Israel spoken of in the same manner.

Our local fellowship has been doing this for a number of years now. I just went to the dollar store and loaded up a couple boxes for boys, ages 10-14. I have to say this is touching & rewarding - praying that the Lord has a witness and touches whoever they go to! And for the first time, I've done the tracking to see where they wind-up. Who else is dong this?

Reminders – The Offer of Salvation is Universal, But… Part 1 Christians are a very exclusive group of people. Membership is restricted by the criteria that God requires in order to belong. You can’t be a member if you believe that Buddha, Mohammed, the Pope, or any man, deity, or angel is just another way to God. Neither can you be a member if your authority in spiritual matters is the Koran, the Book of Mormon, the Watchtower, or any new or ancient writings apart from the Bible. This is not my opinion, nor have I arrived at this conviction because it is the way I have chosen. It is the Creator God’s immutable declaration in His Word. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father, but by me.” John 14:6 He is not a way, He is the only way. Either Jesus is the only way, or He is a liar. It is because of God’s mercy and grace, His unmerited favor bestowed on mankind, that anyone can be saved. Titus 3:4-7 This gracious mercy of God came in the form of Jesus and His death on the cross, His burial in a tomb, and His raising from the dead. This act was the giving of His only begotten Son spoken of in John 3:16. But this good news is not at all exclusive, but rather is universal, being offered to all, no matter who they are, or what they have done. “God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9 As Jesus completed bearing the sin and sins of the world in His body on the cross, he said, “It is finished.” John 19:30 and then He died. Romans 6:23 It was then and there that “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them.” 2 Corinthians 5:19 God’s provision of the way of salvation for all mankind was finished. There was nothing left to do. The logical question then becomes, “why isn’t everybody saved and going to heaven?” The answer is, not everybody believes the Gospel. This is the restrictive part of Christianity. God says that in order to be saved, one must believe this good news. Not to put their trust in a man or in a religion or in an authority or in their good works, but rather in God and what He did and declares. The Gospel of Christ is the power of God to save everyone that believes. Romans 1:16 “For without faith, it is impossible to please God.” Hebrews 11:6 Final Thoughts: There is always someone who counters the Gospel of grace through faith by adding good works to the plan of salvation. They often bring up James’ statement “that faith without works is dead.” James 2:20 This statement is true, but only because Biblical faith comes first and always produces good works. Good works are a result of salvation, not the cause. Once someone has received the gift of salvation by grace through faith, then good works are produced. Notice the progression of these familiar scriptures, “For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.” Ephesians 2:8-10 (PH)

That's my own understanding as well.

I've come to believe similarly, though I admittedly don't place a lot of weight on it. It's enough for me to know that I don't want to be there, and that when God finally does let us understand Hell's nature and duration it'll make sense to us.

I agree. Why not respond with someone who agrees with you instead of some who will not agree? All of these things that you have said are right. It is just a matter of understanding that many of the the times and numbers are symbolic and not literal. The Roman 4th beast of Dan 7:25 rules the saints (the children of Israel, both believing and unbelieving) for 3 1/2 times. The faithful woman of Rev 12:14 flees into the wilderness of the gentile nation for 3 1/2 times. She is chased by the Dan 7 Roman fourth beast. History shows that the children of Israel fled into the wilderness of the gentile nations after 70 AD. Israel returned to Jerusalem in 1967. When Jerusalem was restored it ended the times of the gentiles that Jesus spoke about in Lk 21:24 and the 3 1/2 times that the Roman beast ruled over the children of Israel, both believing and unbelieving. ------ The rule of the Dan 7 fourth beast horns end when Jerusalem is restored. The 10 toes of the Dan 2 statue end when Jerusalem is restored. The time of the Rev 12 woman in the wilderness ends when Jerusalem is restored. The rule of the Rev 13 beast ends when Jerusalem is restored. ----- The Roman Catholic Church is the little horn of Dan 7. This also means that the Bishop of Rome is the Antichrist. But he did not rule over the children of Israel for only 3 1/2 years, or 1260 days/years, but from 63 BC until 1967, about 1900 years ish. To say that the 3 1/2 times is future, is associated, that the Bishop of Rome cannot be the Antichrist because he hasn't been revealed yet. But you have already recognized that the Bishop of Rome is the little horn of Dan 7. This means that the numbers in these passages are symbolic and not literal, and that the literal interpretation of the numbers is designed to hide the identity of the Antichrist, the Bishop of Rome/Caesar. See that the Roman beast nation changes form through the centuries, but is still Rome. ---

The beginning of Psalm 92 is similar to Lamentations 3.22-23: the Lord's mercies are renewed every morning...........

The interesting part of this, for me is that Jesus use of Gehenna is why I believe the lost are annihilated. After all, He compares their fate to bodies being thrown into this burning pit, where stuff is partially consumed by worms and partially burned, except he clarifies that the worms don't "die" and the fire cannot be "quenched*". i.e. the fire and worms completely consume those thrown into them. They are gone, no longer to exist, except as "ashes" or "worm poop". I believe he uses that analogy to clarify that the lost are "thrown out to be utterly destroyed and extinguished." *An unquenchable fire is not a fire that never goes out. It is a fire you cannot PUT OUT. But an unquenchable fire can go out on its own when it runs out of fuel. Think of a burning building with no fire hydrants around. You can't quench it, but it does go out, eventually - and the building is gone.

Never understood this. Christians are accused of being narrow minded because one has to be a Christian to be saved! Unfortunately Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Mormons, JW, etc etc etc all believe that only there followers will be saved. The nonsense that all roads lead to God is shown to be false as Islam and the Christian sects have one God, Hinduism and mormons has a multitude of gods while Buddhism has no god. The wonder of Christianity is that God is concerned for us, he is active in saving us, so much so that unlike all other religions in Christianity the work of salvation is done for one and it has just to be accepted.

I suppose I shouldn't say the Son and spirit are not God, because They represent Him in the sense that it's God Himself.

Would you lump the words Rapture, Trinity, and the word Bible into the same category? They are not in the “Book-Word-Logos” either, yet it is a concept and we doctrinally use them. Not that we needed it, but the Dead Sea Scrolls verify the accuracy of the KJV, YLT, Geneva, and a couple of other translations. Which existing manuscripts that were used were also a factor in determining translation into English. Other considerations are: which Bible did Jesus and the apostles quote OT scripture from? There is a 100-year discrepancy between the LXX and Masoretic Text in longevity from Arphaxad through Terah. The KJV translators thought that could not be correct, so they changed it. Hades. One of the NT terms rendered “hell.” Like the OT “sheol,” it is comprehensive and has a quite similar significance. It refers to the underworld, or region of the departed, the intermediate state between death and the resurrection. It occurs several times in the NT, namely: Matt. 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27, 31; Rev. 1:18; 6:8; 20:13–14. The KJV renders this word “hell” in every case, with the exception of 1 Cor. 15:55 in the KJV only, where it gives “grave” (the NASB and NIV at this point read “death,” from thanatos, not hadēs). The NIV usually renders “depths,” or “grave,” for hades. The distinction thus recognized between “hades” and “hell” as a place of misery is a valid one. Nevertheless it is equally plain that our Lord, certain of His words, associated judgment and suffering with the condition of some of the inhabitants of “hades” (e.g., Matt. 11:23–24; Luke 16:23–27). See Hades. Gehenna. The valley of Hinnom. A place where the Jewish apostasy, the rites of Molech, were celebrated (1 Kings 11:7). It was converted by King Josiah into a place of abomination, where dead bodies were thrown and burned (2 Kings 23:13–14). Hence the place served as a symbol, and the name was appropriated to designate the abode of lost spirits. In this way the term was used by our Lord. The word occurs in the NT, and in every case it is properly translated “hell,” denoting the eternal state of the lost after resurrection. That is, the meaning of the English word is particularly the meaning of Gehenna (Matt. 5:22, 29–30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6). The distinction between hades (the intermediate state) and Gehenna (eternal hell) is of importance, not only because it is necessary to the understanding of quite a large number of passages in the NT, but it may also prevent misconstruction and remove uncertainty as to Christ’s teaching with regard to the future state of the wicked. It also has important bearing upon the doctrine of “Christ’s descent into hell” (hades) and that of the intermediate state.[1] [1] Unger, M. F., Harrison, R. K., Vos, H. F., Barber, C. J., & Unger, M. F. (1988). In The new Unger’s Bible dictionary (Rev. and updated ed.). Moody Press.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:18

Blessings Anne Excellent!We'll said and even to this day it should not be a means to " explain ' our Doctrine but to Glorify GOD(Father,Son & Holy Spirit).... Ive heard(& no doubt everyone has) a million ways to Sunday of " explanations " and it always sort of makes me laugh- who on this earth could explain such a thing as this?!!!!I've not heard a single expkanatuon that has every lead me to believe the one that are " explaining" havd much of an actual understanding- lol I Know I dont! I very simply Believe and not because of what I READ but because His Word is Written on my Heart Because I Received ( yes,through the Written Word ,the Living Word...isn't it that simple? Jesus is the Way,the Truth and the Life....He WAS ( before Abraham) He WAS the ONE in Whom ALL things WERE Made-yet Every Written Word recorded by the Apostles from His Lips He Spoke while He Was Humbly Serving--so of course He would not Say " I AM GOD " - that would mean what then? Thst God is not Omnipotent,Omnipresent,Omniscient? I do think that would be even more confusing than His Triune Eternal Nature- wouldn't it? I could say,I'm Trinitarian because of the WHOLE of the Bible in Context-- Now I have no idea if I've said this appropriately for others to understand but its the best I could do --- Jesus Prayed to " the Father" for the benefit of them that " heard" ....let those who have ears " Hear" With love in Christ,Kwik

Those are all really nice. This week, for the first time I saw a 3D printer, but have no idea how to use it. You must be super pleased with what you did. Thanks for sharing

It's not the differing arguments that bother you, it's the single coherent argument that all creation believers hold as truth; the inspired word of God in the Scriptures. I could point out the disingenuous ones on your side who accuse me of adding to Scriptures written centuries before my birth because I quote the verses they pretend do not exist. I learned that the best way to know that you are posting the truth is to post the word of God in full context so that all can see. Someone posting a fraction of a passage out of context is quite simply dishonest. Answers in Genesis uses the known truth of the Bible to help unravel the mysteries of science. They are not always right in their conclusions, but then, long ago proven hoaxes are still in science textbooks being taught as fact. Yes, science disproved the frauds, but the more dishonest among evolution proponents continue to teach proven lies as truth. Neither side does a great job of policing their own arguments. The goal of Christians should be to support each other and to help each other grow stronger in our relationship with God. We don't do that by lying about very easily provable doctrine. There are many mysteries of the Bible that aren't so cut and dried that we can have opinions on, but the Fourth Commandment pretty well solidifies the Bible's perspective on man's origin.

Good thoughts there, Annie. And for the Father to reveal His Son to us.

All I can think to say: We should not forget the doctrine of the trinity is about God's nature. The persons of the Godhead. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy spirit. Gods eternal nature Jesus is God the Son from all eternity made flesh. A distinct theology of Christology. They did not attempt to mix the two. The Fathers did not intend that doctrine as an explanation. For neither they nor us could understand it with our finite minds. The doctrine was to respond to heresies in their day. The terms they used were simply for ways to think and speak about God's nature is all.

Romans 6:1-2 (NASB20) What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? Far from it! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ In these words are put forth the emphatic-ness of our not continuing in sin, and also the reason for it… For the Christian faith is meant to, and is for the setting one free from sin… The how of this, the understanding of this, the doing of this has perplexed the honest and well meaning heart of the believing soul even to the point of tears…. Which though painful, is still not enough, for one needs to come to the point of being willing to die.… Meaning that one needs to come to the point of being willing to give up all of one’s life onto death, then grab onto Christ’s death by faith and make His death that one’s death…. For this, is the Christian faith that sets one free from sin…. This faith, that is contrary to all human reasonings says; ‘I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I but Christ’…. This faith, this truth believed, this truth laid hold of when the storms of life come, will be that faith that overcomes all that is laid before this faith….. Which seems ludicrous to the human mind, but this is the faith of Paul, this is why Paul was accused of preaching a gospel of ‘let us do evil that good may come’, because those not willing to embrace this faith could not understand this faith, henceforth the accusation…. For the Christian is saved stem to stern by faith, rich or poor, young or old, all are saved and set free from sin by the exact same faith…. It is embracing this faith and to the degree of this embracing will the fruit of the new life given in Christ Jesus be experienced…. Oh to the experiencing of this new life the more, blessings, Not me

Friendly reminder, @Your closest friendnt, this thread is for posting Bible verses and not to be used for Bible studies or discussions. If members could abide by that it would be appreciated. Blessings from Michael37

Just keep in mind that Jesus was/is Yahweh. He is the God of the old testament.

i see what you are saying. It is very fascinating to discover and learn how words have been substituted over time in various translations. Most of the time, i've found when this has happened, some of the meaning of a word, intention, or definition across languages become lost. Just wanted to comment on this plausible interaction with a nonbeliever though, that i feel we should be mindful to meet someone intellectually where they are coming from. A lot of people in my southern parts use the word hell all the time. The knit and grit of the bible may not be a great starting point for someone trying to come to terms with the existence of a nightmare in the afterlife. On the other hand, i know of an unsaved friend of mine who loves discussions like these, and anything to get his mind on God and thinking about Jesus is a win in my book. So yes, a very interesting tid bit here, for a selective group of nonbelievers, i would feel. Just not for everyone!

Hi, and appreciate your reply and comments! Thank God Christ "humbled Himself" (Phl 2:8). Like everything you shared, and God bless!

No i don't watch a lot of tv, so i am unfamiliar with the ink shows.

Yes! Amen. Thank you for this!

This is the fulfillment of the Law: Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. The standard among the brethren beloved is even higher, and the testimony to the world. John 13: 34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another. John 15: 12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

well . . . I have nothing for Thanksgiving, but have been working on various 3D printed projects with the intent of possibly selling them on Etsy. I have been learning how to 3D print for the last year and a half and have finally learned how to print some nice things. I would be interested to know what you think of them (please be honest).The cats can be customizable and the medallion is a coat of arms I made for a family member . . . . At the very least I have fun designing and printing . . . Have a great Thanksgiving!!! Grace and Peace . . . Ray

By the 'Church' I meant the multi denominational, and independent church bodies in the USA as an whole. I know it is not wise to generalize, but, for the most part church leaders have ignored teaching on biblical citizenship and have taught their people to stay out of politics and public education. I believe we are seeing a downward trend in our culture because of this trend. I am in favor of Christian schools and/or home schooling, and wish you and yours the best. I do have hope for the future in Christ and His Kingdom in spite of the decay around us. Hope this explains my comments . . . Ray . . .

Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. I suspect what Jesus said would happen is part of this topic by the tens of millions. As you have observed, with all the problems America and the world faces, the Democrat's central platform is abortion on demand. This is a sickening topic to discuss, much less the reality of murder for convenience. When people run for government office on a platform of death for innocents who have no voice or rights in the matter, and it appeals to their majority voter base, Houston, we have a problem. There is a constant biblical theme, a repeated pattern in the Bible. Judgment is close at hand when atrocities, abominations, wickedness, and lawlessness abound, and it becomes the law of the land. A quote attributed to Ruth Graham, wife of Billy Graham years ago sticks in my mind, to paraphrase: “If God does not judge America soon, He owes an apology to Sodom and Gomorrah.” The only remaining hope for America as I see it for a reprieve, as with Nineveh is: 2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

So what are you going to do on when Trump is reelected and gives the the Israeli government a host? Cheer him on?

Powerful testimony!

I will share it first. When I was born, we lived in a hillside area and very poor, no Christianity in our community and never heard of Christ. Our forefathers believed in animism, worshiping objects such as stones, rocks, mountains, trees, and sacrificing animals to them. Around 1992, a missionary came to our village, despite much resistance by some villagers, our parents converted to Christianity, and today the entire community embraced Christianity. However, there was no Sunday School class at the village that I had limited knowledge of salvation in childhood but only a regular church member. When I was 19 years old, I received Christ on November 8, 2009, through a preacher during a particular occasion. What supernatural encounter has touched you to see Christ?

In 2 Chronicles 7:14, God singled out one class of people that He would listen to. God said, “ If My people which are called by My name...” In the context of God’s promise to Solomon, God’s people would have referred to the nation of Israel, the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Thank you for your concern. i am praying *intelligently*.

He does indeed, my friend. We are only men and women and it's good to keep that in mind. We can become tired, grow weary, or find ourselves frustrated at our wits end. Speaking to the Lord truthfully pleases Him. He already knows as others have pointed out. I've called this "The Lesson of Cain": Instead of speaking the truth to the Lord who surely knew that he killed his brother, Cain chose to lie instead. Imagine how different things would have been for Cain if he had simply dealt honestly with God, who is merciful and swift to forgive. We know from the scriptures how speaking to the Lord truthfully pleases Him; He has regard for those who do. I understand that for some, it requires no small measure of courage to tell the Lord what He already knows. It was a simple matter for me after I had suffered brain damage, when the Lord taught me how to speak and take care of myself again. I experienced great difficulty controlling emotions at that time, something the Lord knew well. Those daily lessons learning how to speak again by reading the first three words of the Gospel of John aloud was the greatest challenge I had faced in my life. I didn't lose the ability to read words, but I did lose the ability to speak/pronounce them. It took three days for me to master pronouncing, "In the beginning." I cried... I screamed... I slammed my fists on the table... and I couldn't understand why the Lord had spared my worthless life. For what... to be reduced to such a state? It would have been better if I had died; but no, the Lord said I would live instead. I had quickly forgotten His promise to do the very thing I was being subjected to because my mind was a disorderly, chaotic mess. He promised to teach me. He promised to provide for me. He was not stirred to wrath during those emotional outbursts. His Spirit soothed my soul instead, making it possible for me to continue with those grueling lessons. Truly, this is the image of how the Lord works in us all here and now.

It's you who is not reading the passage correctly.You believe this is a bad guess.Well here is the word of the Lord.You should try to hear it if you can. Ezekiel 37 13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord. The correct sequence of events are listed as such 1 -God shall open their graves 2- God shall bring them up out of their graves 3-God shall put his spirit in them . 4-God shall place them in their own land. All this takes place when Jesus comes.Christ gathering his elect into their own land takes place after he has raised them from their graves and given them life.