The Day of the Lord, will the church be raptured?

[Marilyn C]

Good work lamad,

 

However I do have a couple of points for you too.  

 

As regards the Old Testament saints, we are told exactly where they are -

 

`you have come to ...the General Assembly & the church of the first born who are enrolled in heaven.....& to the spirits of righteous men made perfect.`  (eb. 12: 23)

 

Now the ONLY ones who are promised that they will be kingpriests on thrones with Christ are - the Body of Christ.  (Rev. 1: 6   &  Rev. 3: 21)

 

Also it is the Lord Jesus Christ`s enthronement in Rev. 4 with the Body of Christ. (24 Elders - representative) 

Jesus does not ENTER the throne room as He is already there with the Father at His right hand. (Heb. 1: 3) Jesus is `between` the throne & the elders. What an absolutely awesome sight & beyond words really for there is God the Father & God the Son & God the Holy Spirit, (symbolically 7 lamps).

 

The scroll is the title deeds of the earth & Christ receives His inheritance, the nations (Ps.2: 8) even though Satan tried to rob Him of it. (Mark 12: 6 & 7)

Christ has been given all judgment into His hands by the Father & it is in the tribulation that he executes those judgments upon the rebellious.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Montana Marv]

LAMAD

 

Your quote: 

 

Next, when we consider the 5th seal, they are the martyrs of the church age. Stephen was one of the first in this group. They had NO IDEA how long the church age would last, so they ASKED HOW LONG. (It has been almost 2000 years now.)

Therefore the 5th seal was opened at the same time.

 

I see a major problem, those of the 5th Seal are very specific; to those who had been slain -  Rev 6:9 is the same as (Rev 20:5 - and I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony - They did not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands).  This also leaves out the 90 percent or more of believers who died of natural causes.  Also no crown was given to Christ except the crown of thorns.  Also the crown mentioned in Rev 6:2 was a stephanos, not a diadem which is worn by Christ at His Second Coming.  The HS is known as a Comforter, not a King, so no need for a crown.

 

Another problem is that they are asking for their blood to be avenged.  Stephen asked in Acts 7:60 - Do not hold this sin against then.  So don't lump Stephen into this group.  BTW, we are never asked to have our blood avenged, it is the same as condemning these people.  James 3:9,10,11 -  With the same tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have be made in Gods likeness.  Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing.  My Brothers, this should not be.  Can fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring.  All we can say is "Lord Rebuke".  Forgiveness is our model 7 times 70.  Why would we want to have someone condemned, when later they may become a believer.  If Stephen asked for vengeance, Saul/Paul would be dead.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

The Second rider takes peace from the earth.  There needs to be peace on earth for this to happen.  No peace over the past 3,500 years.

[Marilyn C]

Very good Montana Marv,

 

I appreciated all of that.

[Spock]

Salty wrote;

Although 1 Thess.5 does not give the detail like 1 Thess.4 does, Paul is continuing the subject from 1 Thess.4 about the saints still on earth on the "day of the Lord", which is when Jesus returns to gather His Church.

 

Salty, I think you need to camp out on 1 Thes. 5 until you get it. You don't at this point in time.

 

Did you completely miss Paul's paradigm? He compares the fates of two groups of people, those living in the darkness and those living in the light of the gospel AT THE TIME OF THE RAPTURE. (Don't miss that last point!)

 

It will be those living in DARKNESS that must enter the Day of the Lord with the great, worldwide earthquake (6th seal) SUDDEN DESTRUCTION which begins the wrath of God, just as John wrote: "the day of His wrath has come."

 

What then happens to those living in the light of the gospel? They get RAPTURED and so get to "live together with Him."

 

John did not get to see the rapture from where he was in heaven. But he did get to see the effects of the rapture: he saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN right after the 6th seal.

 

Just to keep your thinking straight, after that comes the 7th seal.

Then the first 6 trumpets during the first half of the week,

Then the 7th trumpet that marks the midpoint of the week.

Then the fleeing and the battle in the heavenlies.

Then the man of sin turning Beast.

Then the angels flying with the everlasting gospel.

Then days of great tribulation such as has never been seen on the earth.

Then God will begin pouring out the vials of His wrath with the associated plagues to SHORTEN those days of GT.

Finally the 7th vial ends the week. The Old testament saints rise here.

Then the marriage and marriage supper take place in heaven.

FINALLY Jesus gets on His white horse, the BRIDE gets on their white horses, the Angels get on THEIR white horses and ALL return to earth to the Battle of Armageddon.

 

There will be a LOT of water over the dam, so to speak, between the pretrib rapture of the church (just before the 6th seal) and the day Jesus returns on the white horse.

 

What part of this don't you get?

 

LAMAD

LAMAD,

I love this post a lot. It is nice to read someone else who sees the rapture in rev 7 and not in rev 4. In fact I cringe when I read pre tribbers wanting to see the rapture in 4:1. Maybe that is symbolic of the rapture, but it seems like a stretch.

Yet, rev 7:9 seems so clear. And still pre tribbers want to call these people the tribulation saints for convenience. Oh really? I don't think so. I doubt there will be that many people turning on to The Lord after the rapture. It seems to me it may be just the opposite, but I'm not going to be dogmatic about this.

[Spock]

LAMAD,

You said this to Salty...

Of course, you can dwell in MYTH land if you choose. It is your choice. You can MISS the pretrib rapture and be found left behind. It will be YOUR DOING.

My question is, WHY? Do you just WANT to tribulate? Do you like being put under great pressure? Why not just follow Luke 21:36?

It is there for YOU.

LAMAD

Spock: do you really believe he would miss the rapture just because he (erroneously in my opinion) believes in a post trib rapture ? I'm taken back by this, so I really would like to see you back that up for me. Thanks.

[Spock]

This post should be discussed a lot more.....

Seal 1 White Horse: broken as soon as Jesus ascended: 32 AD: the CHURCH sent out to make disciples of all nations

Seal 2 Red Horse to bring war...limited to 1/4 of the earth: Europe, Middle East, Africa: These three ride together

Seal 3 Black Horse to bring famine...limited to 1/4 of the earth: Europe, Middle East, Africa: These three ride together

Seal 4 Pale Horse to bring death...limited to 1/4 of the earth: Europe, Middle East, Africa: These three ride together

These three riders, the Red, the Black, the Pale, ride together from hell to STOP the advance of the church.

Seal 5 Martyrs of the church age: must wait until the END of the church age......the rapture.

Seal 6 Rapture first as the trigger for the beginning of the Day of the Lord and the Day of His wrath

First intermission as the 144,000 Hebrews are sealed: John saw the raptured church in heaven.

Seal 7 30 minutes of silence...marks the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel

Trumpet 1 God's wrath begins in ernest with the first trumpet: all grass burned up, 1/3 of trees.....probably NUKES.

Trumpet 2 1/3 of sea becomes blood...as a WARNING of God's power to come.

Trumpet 3 1/3 part of fresh water becomes blood...another warning that it could have been all.

Trumpet 4 Sun moon and star darkened by 1/3...another warning that God controls everything.

Trumpet 5 first of three woes: beasties loosed from bottomless pit to sting and torture

Trumpet 6 Second of 3 woes: Angels sent to kill 1/3 of mankind off the planet

Second intermission as many events must take place before and after the abomination before the vials come

...Man of sin enters Jerusalem...3 1/2 days before the abomination.

...Two witnesses show up and begin their testimony seconds after the man of sin enters Jerusalem

Trumpet 7 3rd of 3 woes - exact midpoint of week - Satan cast down...God's wrath and Satan's wrath together

.....trumpet 7 will sound in heaven at the same moment the man of sin enters temple: the abomination.

Those living in Jerusalem flee to the mountains

Satan is cast down

Man of sin has turned to BEAST and goes after those who fled into wilderness

John sees the Beast rise - then the false prophet...summary of rest of week with the Beast.

Angels fly and warn the world to FEAR GOD and worship Him, Babylon is fallen (prophecy of future), DON'T take Mark

Days of GREAT TRIBULATION as the Mark and the image is set up and false miracles deceived the entire world

Untold millions of believers are put to death, the WW2 holocaust seems insignificant, for this is WORLDWIDE.

After God has deemed it long enough, the vials are poured out with their associated plagues to SHORTEN the days of GT.

Finally, just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial ends the 70th week, the Two witnesses are killed. They lay dead for 3 1/2 days.

The 7th vial is poured out, the Old Testament saints rise with the Two witnesses, and the 70th week is ended.

.......the world waits....the Beast gathers the armies of 10 nations to Israel to completely destroy Israel.

At the same time, the marriage and supper are takeing place in heaven,,,,had to wait for the Old Testament saints to arrive

Finally Jesus descends WITH all His saints, battle of Armageddon, parable of the tares, Angels sent to take the wicked.

The Beast and False prophet cast into the lake of fire.

Sheep and goat judgment

New temple, peace at last, Millennial reign, curse is lifted off the planet.

When these things begin to take place, THIS will be the order of events - exactly as John has written them.

LAMAD

Spock's musings: I think I will digest it first before discussing, but I will say this- I have never read anyone interpret the first seal as you have here. It is still blowing my mind. I hope you had discussion after you typed this. It needs to be discussed. Wow!!!

[Salty]

 

Salty, yes im questioning the entire rapture doctrine, that is pre, mid and post, whichever you subscribe to. see i asked for weaknesses in the rapture doctrine and i got a rebuttle from you instead to strengthen your view and to question it goes against OT and NT teachings....your claiming your argument is perfect....that in its self is impossible.

as mentioned no arguement is perfect and your facts would be different to my set of facts, which has been repeated and repeated and being accepted as truth from whoever you accepted your facts from, youve taken a literal view to rapture, which everybody accepts as truth...is it?

let me start by giving you one flaw

You will desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and you will not see it. -Luke 17:2

 

 

That kind of reasoning you expound is in itself a flaw. There is only one Truth and that is God's Truth in His Word. Some follow It, some do not. That does not mean everything one reads from God's Word is a flaw of the reader's understanding, otherwise no one would ever understand It. Your kind of idea there is to doubt the validity of God's Holy Writ itself as if God only can understand what He wrote.

[Spock]

Inchrist,As I previously said, I really couldn't care less if you believe in the rapture or not.And I could care less about what people think regarding the TIMING of the rapture (those who believe in one).However.....Just to play along.Rapture passages which I'm sure you are aware of:1. I thess 42. I cor 15You can start with those two. If you can't see a rapture in any of these two, no need for me to continue.Still have great love and respect for you even though you missed the boat on this one.Spock out

oh i think it is important, after all the Jews missed the first coming, didnt they?

see, all three rapture theories cant be correct? In this case then only one can be correct or all three are incorrect?

on the surface it may not seem important, but i beg to differ...its extremely dangerous not to know.

Hmmmm

Up until now, I'm not aware that ones belief in the timing of the rapture was an ESSENTIAL doctrine.

For example, if I believe in pre trib and salty believes in post trib, and the abomination has just passed and all hell is breaking out on earth, then I was wrong.

So....

I'm sure I will adjust my way of doing things and will be on my knees even more asking for God's grace and wisdom through this.

I don't see how my erroneous belief hurts me.

I would assume, if you reverse this and I was right (pre trib), the postie will be surprised in fact pleasantly surprised when they hear me say on the way up, "I told you."

Does anyone think differently? Please support your thinking. Thanks.

[Spock]

LAMAD,

What I find interesting about your timeline is it is not rushed to shove everything in 7 years.

Most commentaries include the seals, trumpets and bowls in the final 7 and like you, this sure seems like a lot of wars in such a short period of time.

Here is another interesting observation I made looking at your timeline....

You only have the bowls AFTER the midpoint (abomination of desolation) which is the great tribulation period (42 months). This is definitely unique.

Again, I'm not judging any of this, just making observations. I am pondering all of this and it is causing me to go back into scripture to see if it fits.

Needless to say, I'm very interested in hearing your continued thoughts regarding this. Thanks.

[Salty]

Find a scripture that ties His coming with the Day of the Lord, so we can know once and for ever that "coming" and "day of the Lord" are synonymous terms. There is SO MUCH disagreement here, perhaps you and solve this.

 

 

LAMAD

 

 

Rev.16:15

¹⁵ Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

 

2 Pet.3:10

¹⁰ But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.