Things the Bible does not say about the End Times

[Omegaman 3.0]

OK Thank you Marylin C, that is clearer, and you are right, I have other things to be doing right now, I appreciate your sensitivity to that. You are also right in that this is not the place to do that, all I was trying to stimulate here, was discussion about those specific ideas, are they bible supported, or not. Not interested in this thread, in seeing how many alternate theories there are to choose from. I may get back to you next week. Thanks again.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Omegaman 3.0,

 

Thank you for your reply. I do understand that at the moment it is not a good idea for a debate. However as we know the soap-box debate is not about any one `winning,` but each presenting their views on a topic. So when & if you would like to `debate,` present your views, I am also willing to present mine.

 

Blessings & looking forward to your `5 min. theological topics.`

 

Marilyn.

[Omegaman 3.0]

 

Shalom, Omegaman.

I got it, and I’m sorry that so many others didn’t. The old saying, “Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity,” comes to mind. One should NEVER think badly of a brother or sister without good cause. Now, not to call you “stupid,” except in the sense that we are ALL “stupid” next to God’s wisdom and intelligence, but just because we show what may be deemed by others to be “stupidity,” does NOT mean that we are being “underhanded” or “manipulative."

So this text says that if we didn't GET  the OP it is because we are stupid. I am done with this thread!

 

 

Well, since firestormX says he is done with this thread, he will not see this. However, I think it is best to defend Retrobyter a bit here. FirestormX accuses Retrobyter, of calling respondents in the thread "stupid". He bolded some text to emphasize this point.

 

However, to take it that way, is to do some of what this thread is about, come to conclusions that are not born out by statements in context.

 

FirestormX at least included the context, which was a good thing to do. However, to not notice the rest of what Retrobyter said:

 

 

Now, not to call you “stupid,” except in the sense that we are ALL “stupid” next to God’s wisdom and intelligence,

 

seems to me to intentionally ignore what Retrobyter said, and to take offence at what was not intended is, well, just wrong.

 

I do think though, that FirestormX did something quite right and respectable. He chose to leave the thread, apparently because he found it offensive to him. If we find ourselves offended by ideas or by intents we imply of others, the mature thing to do is to leave, and avoid being offended further. Another approach is to grow thicker skin and just not take offense.

 

The thing that I wish we could do more easily, is to either ask the others to clarify what they mean and then part on better terms if necessary, or at least leave quietly without announcing what we perceive to the faults of others to be. Rather than use a method of taking offense / accusation / run, it might be better to inquire / listen / reconcile.

 

If we cannot do that, if we cannot discuss ideas, apart from being offensive and taking offense, then sometimes it might be better to avoid those threads where to subjects are controversial. 

 

I think FirestormX did the right thing in deciding not to be part of any squabbling.

[Omegaman 3.0]

 

 

 

PS. I do not believe the Body of Christ being `caught away,` when it is complete, mature, is escapism, as you said. I do not really get caught up in pre-mid-post views, however if you would like a soap-box debate on this issue I would be willing to debate with you. Note, I will not use any scriptures that pre-tribs usually do. Is that a fair challenge?

 

Thanks for the invite and the challenge, yes, it is fair. I have read some of your posts in the past Marilyn, and they are interesting. However, I am declining the debate, at least at this time, Others have also suggested engaging me in the Soap Box before, but I have declined there also. Don't ask me why, clearly I have no objection to debate, lol, Someday, I may take someone up on it, but I don't feel I should commit to it at this time.

 

On further thought, I do not see much benefit to be had from such a debate. Here is my thinking:

 

1 Your ideas are already presented in the forum, in various places.

2. So are mine.

3. This thread has sort of issued a challenge, because some ideas about eschatology are commonly asserted, I thought it might be interesting if anyone had actual verses that support the ideas. It is not that these ideas are not theoretically possible, I just wanted to see if there  is any statements for scripture that demand such conclusions. I don't think so far, that there are. I just see them as expressions of hope and optimism, and there is nothing wrong with that, as long as we do not say this is what the Bible teaches.

 

I have already posted a succinct list of ideas in my eschatological understanding, with the scriptural reasons why I believe the events will transpire in a certain way. This is posted elsewhere on this forum. In that, there is another link to the same ideas, but in a comparison with the ideas and the Bible verses, side by side.

 

So, in as much as I have already defended the reasons for my beliefs here plenty, and challenged beliefs that I think lead others into large scale deception, and since I do not see your beliefs as being in that category, I don't think I want a debate with you. There are a whole lot of views out there. Some I have little to quarrel with, because they are not, in my estimation, dangerous.

 

It is primarily this idea of the church escaping all that the prophets, the apostles, and Christian martyrs up to the present have had to endure, that I find to be enticing. I cannot hear this things and not think of 2 Tim 4:

 

 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.5But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

 

It is hard for me to not observe, that the demonstrably early belief in the church that she would go through terrible times, is being supplanted with an ear tickling doctrine which had not taken hold at all, until the 1800's and did not gain any significant ground until the 1900's when the Schofield Reference Bible was introduced to our seminaries. From that, a whole generation of future pastors and future seminary professors came to spread this escapism in the westerns church especially in America. 

 

I theorize, that America was especially fertile ground for this, because the results of our success in the industrial revolution, being victorious in both world wars, and our increasing prosperity  and relative lives of ease, gave us a sense of entitlement, safety, and well being, that and our freedom of religious belief made the idea of going through the tribulation, unthinkable.

 

Well, I have violated my own principles and gotten way of track here, caught up in my own pontifications. I apologize. Anyway, no Marilyn, I decline your offer to have a soap boxing match.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, firestormx.

 

 

Shalom, Omegaman.
I got it, and I’m sorry that so many others didn’t. The old saying, “Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity,” comes to mind. One should NEVER think badly of a brother or sister without good cause. Now, not to call you “stupid,” except in the sense that we are ALL “stupid” next to God’s wisdom and intelligence, but just because we show what may be deemed by others to be “stupidity,” does NOT mean that we are being “underhanded” or “manipulative."

So this text says that if we didn't GET  the OP it is because we are stupid. I am done with this thread!

 

 

NO, sir! That’s not what I was saying AT ALL! Learn to read correctly, please. What I was saying was that Omegaman should not be thought of as being malicious when he said something that one might THINK was “stupid!” It’s one thing to attribute to someone ignorance on a matter; it’s quite another to attribute evil, as being “underhanded” or “manipulative!” Omega man was called “underhanded” and “manipulative."

 

Now, PLEASE, quit wearing that "chip on your shoulder.” You seem to be just DARING someone to knock it off your shoulder! Relax, brother! We love you just as you are, and while I can’t speak for everyone, I CERTAINLY DON’T think you’re “stupid!"

[MorningGlory]

 

 

Now, if the early church knew these things, why would we assume that they thought that the rapture could happen at any moment

Two reasons:

 

1. The Rapture is not dependent on, or controlled by, any other events.  Check it out for yourself.

 

2. The early Church was aware of the following words of Christ, and therefore had the saying "Maran-atha".  In fact Paul uses Maranatha ("O Lord, come" according to Vine, which corresponds to the verse below): He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen.  Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (Rev 22:20)

 

The fact that "quickly" could be after 2,000 years is irrelevant, since a thousand years are as but one day in the sight of the Lord (2 Pet 3:8).  In the light of eternity, only two days have passed since the Lord made that statement.

 

Boy, I see you totally missed the point, lol, or ignored it. I think I am through with you Ezra, in this thread. maybe we can pick it up some more in another thread, I cannot waste more time here with people who cannot say, "wow, that is a good point I never thought of that, and instead play the "yes but" game, as I described in the previous post. Maranatha - Even so come, Lord Jesus!

 

 

In other words, O man, if others don't agree with you then you don't want to waste your time with them?  Why did you even post this thread then? Has it ever occured to you that YOU could be wrong?

[hmbld]

Now, if the early church knew these things, why would we assume that they thought that the rapture could happen at any moment

Two reasons:

 

1. The Rapture is not dependent on, or controlled by, any other events.  Check it out for yourself.

 

2. The early Church was aware of the following words of Christ, and therefore had the saying "Maran-atha".  In fact Paul uses Maranatha ("O Lord, come" according to Vine, which corresponds to the verse below): He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen.  Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (Rev 22:20)

 

The fact that "quickly" could be after 2,000 years is irrelevant, since a thousand years are as but one day in the sight of the Lord (2 Pet 3:8).  In the light of eternity, only two days have passed since the Lord made that statement.

Boy, I see you totally missed the point, lol, or ignored it. I think I am through with you Ezra, in this thread. maybe we can pick it up some more in another thread, I cannot waste more time here with people who cannot say, "wow, that is a good point I never thought of that, and instead play the "yes but" game, as I described in the previous post. Maranatha - Even so come, Lord Jesus!

 

In other words, O man, if others don't agree with you then you don't want to waste your time with them?  Why did you even post this thread then? Has it ever occured to you that YOU could be wrong?

Waiting for someone to take up mega's challenge to show where he is wrong using scripture!

[Marilyn C]

Hi Omegaman,3.0,
 
I hear what you are saying about not wanting a soap-box debate. Now you may not realise that I have never said what I believe on any thread regarding the rapture of the Body of Christ, except to say it is not `escapism,` & that I am a pre-trib. believer. Thus I also will wait for a more opportune time to go into details of what I believe is God`s purpose for the Body & thus its `catching away.`

 

 

Until people start to understand God`s purpose for the Body of Christ, then they will keep having endless discussions on the details.

 
Marilyn.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Marilyn C

[Omegaman 3.0]

 

 

 

Now, if the early church knew these things, why would we assume that they thought that the rapture could happen at any moment

Two reasons:

 

1. The Rapture is not dependent on, or controlled by, any other events.  Check it out for yourself.

 

2. The early Church was aware of the following words of Christ, and therefore had the saying "Maran-atha".  In fact Paul uses Maranatha ("O Lord, come" according to Vine, which corresponds to the verse below): He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen.  Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (Rev 22:20)

 

The fact that "quickly" could be after 2,000 years is irrelevant, since a thousand years are as but one day in the sight of the Lord (2 Pet 3:8).  In the light of eternity, only two days have passed since the Lord made that statement.

 

Boy, I see you totally missed the point, lol, or ignored it. I think I am through with you Ezra, in this thread. maybe we can pick it up some more in another thread, I cannot waste more time here with people who cannot say, "wow, that is a good point I never thought of that, and instead play the "yes but" game, as I described in the previous post. Maranatha - Even so come, Lord Jesus!

 

 

In other words, O man, if others don't agree with you then you don't want to waste your time with them?  Why did you even post this thread then? Has it ever occured to you that YOU could be wrong?

 

 

You must be reading a different thread or different posts than I see on my screen MorningGlory.

 

You somehow did not bother to notice that I said we could pick it up in another thread. I was through with Ezra, in THIS thread, because I was tired of his misrepresenting things or failing to understand things said, or ignoring what was said (I do not know what the problem was) and instead, trying to derail the topic with distracting arguments which do not address the topic.

The topic was about where certain ideas are from. My assertion was that they are not said in the bible, and here we are, 60 something posts later, and  no one has offered even one verse that compels us to believe any one of those premises some claim to be true.

Understand this THEY MIGHT BE TRUE! My point was and still so far is, that the Bible does not say they are true. Is there something wrong with my statement that those things are not said in the Bible?

You asked me if it ever occurred to me that I might be wrong. I can answer that honestly, probably less that 10 times a day it does. You asked me "Why did you even post this thread then?"

Simple, so that other people can prove me wrong. Please prove me wrong! It would be great to be wrong! If any one of those 9 items can be proven to be established by scripture, then I AM wrong, and my conclusions will need ammending. The reasons I have the views I have are because I studied to learn if I was wrong. My conclusions are that I was, indeed wrong, that is why I abandoned belief in the pre-trib rapture theory in the first place, so yes, it occurs to me that I can be wrong. Show me where I am, if you cannot, then maybe it should occur to some people, that I might be right, at least approximately.

Even here in your post MorningGlory, you change the topic, and make it about me, not about those 9 assumptions that I question. So, what is with that? Don't answer that but think about it, as I do not want, yet again, to spend time here, talking about anything other that the OP, and I do not feel I should have to. I'll tell you what, for anyone who thinks I am wrong,

[Last Daze]