Things the Bible DOES say about the End Times

[gdemoss]

Omega, for what it is worth you sound like you are way out of line and you ought to repent of your accusation toward Shiloh. 

The book of revelation is extremely open to interpretation and for you to demand of someone that the words must appear for the understanding to be able to be applied is wrong.

Reading the text I cannot see how they can be 144,000 people who have all the characteristics that they are attributed without being preachers of the gospel.

Answer me one question.  Can you follow Jesus without preaching the gospel?  Yet these are said to follow the lamb withersoever he goes.  Do you really believe that this is such a streach to suggest it would include preaching the gospel?

I am sorry but I can't be with you on this one.  

[Omegaman 3.0]

Omega, for what it is worth you sound like you are way out of line and you ought to repent of your accusation toward Shiloh. 

The book of revelation is extremely open to interpretation and for you to demand of someone that the words must appear for the understanding to be able to be applied is wrong.

Reading the text I cannot see how they can be 144,000 people who have all the characteristics that they are attributed without being preachers of the gospel.

Answer me one question.  Can you follow Jesus without preaching the gospel?  Yet these are said to follow the lamb withersoever he goes.  Do you really believe that this is such a streach to suggest it would include preaching the gospel?

I am sorry but I can't be with you on this one.  

That is okay Gary, thanks for that opinion, I am sorry though, I do not see it as an accusation myself. It is an observation a statement of facts. If it is said the the bible says "X" but it does not say "X". Then it is what it is. i will happily repent, if you can show me, where what I said was not accurate, but I do not know how to repent of telling the truth, not sure that I should.

To answer you questions about "Can one follow Jesus without preaching?", maybe, but to assume that a person following would have to include preaching, becomes a matter of interpretation. I think that if the verse said "They follow the Lamb, wherever they go, the case would be stronger for what you are suggesting, but still not a slam dunk. Perhaps that verse only means, that they follow Him, as in they accompany Him.

In any case,  I was not questioning the validity of the interpretation, I was pointing out that it does not say that the 144,000 are evangelists or preachers or witnesses, and indeed, that is the case. Had Shiloh said "I interpret 'following the lamb' to mean orto  imply that they are evangelizing" I would have no issue with it. My threads are about what the Bible says, and what it does not say. I did not do a "What the Bible means" thread. I could make such a list, but then I would fall into the same bad habit, that I am accusing many pretribbers of doing, adding to scripture - sorry, not going to do that.

I can apologize if anyone is offended, or if feelings are hurt, but that is not the same as repenting. I might be convinced to relent or not be so direct in telling or exposing the truth, but I cannot repent of that, how can one repent of truth telling? Would you really expect that of me? Again, thank you for your opinion and having the integrity of giving it.

P.S. Just reread your post Gary and thought I would comment on another part of it, you said:

"he book of revelation is extremely open to interpretation and for you to demand of someone that the words must appear for the understanding to be able to be applied is wrong."

Actually Gary, that is precisely my point. There is room for interpretation. That is what I am expecting, for people to admit, that there is a difference between an interpretation, and a declaration. It is fair to say that "one interpretation suggests, that these 144,000 Jews, are evangelists", because it is true, that this is what many people believe. It is not true that the Bible says that they are evangelists, I hate to be a stickler on this, but I guess I have perhaps grown weary, of how often people present their interpretations, as though they are scripturally established facts. If that is what interpretations are, then it is true that there is a literal 1000 year period, that is only symbolic, and that Jesus returns to catch up the church before, during and after the tribulation, and that all of this happened already, in 70 A.D.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Omegaman 3.0
added p.s.

[Steve_S]

I agree with ome here. The problem is when something like this is presented as absolute fact as opposed to admitted interpretative opinion. There is a gigantic difference in "the 144,000 are evangelists" and "I believe the 144,000 are evangelists" or "I'm of the opinion that the 144,000 are witnesses." Saying "the 144,000 are absolutely, irrevocably, clearly evangelists" though, is off base, because it is not obviously clear. We are told a handful of things about the 144,000 in concrete terms and none of them involve evangelism.

[Rev2015]

 

The 24 elders existed before Jesus ascended.

No one will have their redeemed (immortal) bodies before Jesus returns.

Yes I agree the 24 elders are more than likely old testament or even pre-flood patriarchs. And yes Jesus is the first fruit to receive a resurrected immortal body. This happened at His resurrection 2000 years ago.

I didn't say or indicate the elders received their glorified bodies before Christ. The 24 elders will receive their bodies when the trump sounds and all the dead in Christ rise (first), and then those believers alive will be raptured immediately afterwards. My point is as scripture indicates, the 24 elders are present in the throne room with their crowns and glorified bodies as redeemed resurrected men before the 1st seal is opened by Christ.

 

So, Revelation 4 shows the spirits of the 24 elders? And Revelation 5 shows them immortal?

No,...nowhere does it indicate the elders are spirits. Everything they do throughout the book of Revelation indicates they have a physical capacity, a physical essence. They have their resurrected immortal bodies throughout John's witness of the events. They themselves declare they are redeemed men. They have been rewarded crowns that they cast before the throne, they are clothe in white raiment, this to me indicates they have their resurrected bodies and have been judged at the Bema. The question is, are they present in the throne room when the 1st seal is open?

[OldSchool2]

 

Lying about what scripture says, is something to be repented of.

That is unnecessarily strong language for what can be considered an honest mistake.  Many Christians in the past have believed that those 144,000 are evangelists. That is simply an assumption, not necessarily a lie (since there was no deliberate attempt to mislead)....

Every time I see a reference to the 144,000 of Revelations I think of the WTS auxiliary pioneers "sincerely" going from door-to-door with their publications.

[Last Daze]

So, Revelation 4 shows the spirits of the 24 elders? And Revelation 5 shows them immortal?

No,...nowhere does it indicate the elders are spirits. Everything they do throughout the book of Revelation indicates they have a physical capacity, a physical essence. They have their resurrected immortal bodies throughout John's witness of the events. They themselves declare they are redeemed men. They have been rewarded crowns that they cast before the throne, they are clothe in white raiment, this to me indicates they have their resurrected bodies and have been judged at the Bema. The question is, are they present in the throne room when the 1st seal is open?

No, that's not the question at all.  I don't see anyone challenging that.  The question, is how can you assume that they became immortal before Christ did?  The throne room scene progresses along these lines:

• Those present are: One sitting on a throne, 24 elders, seven spirits of God, four living creatures.
• The four living creatures declare God's holiness and the 24 elders worship and sing (say) a song.
• The One who sits on the throne has a scroll sealed with seven seals.
• An angel asks who is worthy to open the scroll and it's seals
• The answer is: And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.
• Then the Lamb appears and is deemed worthy because He overcame.
• The seven spirits of God become the seven eyes of the Lamb
• The Lamb takes the scroll from the One who sits on the throne.
• The 24 elders and the four creatures worship and sing (say) a new song.
• A multitude of angels join in.

The throne room scene in chapters four and five establishes the worthiness of Christ by using a "before and after" comparison.  It wasn't until Christ overcame the world by His death and resurrection (the Lamb slain) that anyone was found worthy to open the scroll.  The 24 elders were clearly in the throne room before that point in time and when that time came, they sang a new song.  To suggest that the 24 elders obtained immortality before Jesus did clearly violates what is said in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 and that is what you are suggesting.  The 24 elders can not possibly be immortal.  And being redeemed is not the same as being immortal.

 

 

[Marilyn C]

 

Yes I agree the 24 elders are more than likely old testament or even pre-flood patriarchs. And yes Jesus is the first fruit to receive a resurrected immortal body. This happened at His resurrection 2000 years ago.

If we keep in mind that the New Covenant supersedes all other covenants with men in the past, then it follows that these 24 elders are not OT patriarchs or OT elders of Israel, but actual church elders who have distinguished themselves in their service to Christ in local assemblies. Since the New Jerusalem is the eternal home of the Church, it also follows that these 24 elders will be gathered around God's throne eternally. Since 12 is the number of Divine Government (hence 12 thrones for 12 apostles ruling the 12 tribes of Israel), 12 x 2 = 24 indicates that these elders are somehow connected with God's government in His eternal Kingdom. That they have crowns on their heads further confirms this.

Hi Ezra,

Now why would the Lord fit us with glorified bodies that go through different realms, like His, then take us to His eternal throne in the third heaven & then say - `Oh sorry about this, but really you all have to go back down again.` Now really, think about that. Christ made us for that higher calling for a specific responsibility. And.. there is NO mention of the Body of Christ in the New Jerusalem. It was promised to `those who looked for a city,` (Heb: 11) it comes DOWN out of heaven, down, down, down, to near the earth. 

The 24 elders are representative of the WHOLE BODY OF CHRIST - `...you have redeemed us ....out of every tribe & tongue & people & nation & have made us kings & priests to our God; & we shall reign `epi` over the earth.` (Rev. 5: 9 & 10)

24 means the greater calling, the high, on top calling the Apostle Paul was writing about to the Philippians -

`I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.` (Phil. 3: 14)

The enemy would try to delude believers that their inheritance, their calling is to a lower level, but look into it & study this `high calling` for yourself.

Marilyn.

 

 

 

 

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Last Daze,

I hear what you are suggesting about the 24 elders. However have you considered that what we are seeing there in Rev. 4 & 5 is a pictorial presentation of Jesus receiving His `throne,` His authority from the Father.

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne, as I overcame & sat down with my Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)

Christ was already at the Father`s right hand interceding & maturing the Body of Christ, in Rev. ch. 1 - 3. Thus what we are looking at in ch. 4 & 5 are the king priests, (the Body of Christ) taking part in the investiture of the Son of Man with all power, all authority, glory, & honour.

And what a `day` that will be!  And I certainly don`t want to miss that.

Marilyn. 

[Omegaman 3.0]

Just a note to the posters and readers here. I have been letting this thread run quite a bit off course, time to real it back in some. The thread has a title "Things the Bible DOES say about the End Times". It started with a list of such things, and my hope was that the thread would stick to those things.

Of course, it is in keeping with the spirit of the thread to mention and discuss other things that the Bible does say . . . ,
but discussion of the larger and broad subject of eschatology, where we bring in all sorts of theories and interpretations, was not the intention. Please try to limit the posts to things that ate strictly said explicitly, and not things that have been spun and removed from their meanings in context etc.

There are other threads where other things are discussed, and you may always start your own for your own personal take on eschatology - here, no private interpretations - try to stick with what the Bible actually says - assume words mean things, especially words in the Bible.

[Ezra]

Since the New Jerusalem is the eternal home of the Church, it also follows that these 24 elders will be gathered around God's throne eternally. Since 12 is the number of Divine Government (hence 12 thrones for 12 apostles ruling the 12 tribes of Israel), 12 x 2 = 24 indicates that these elders are somehow connected with God's government in His eternal Kingdom. That they have crowns on their heads further confirms this.

Hi Ezra,

Now why would the Lord fit us with glorified bodies that go through different realms, like His, then take us to His eternal throne in the third heaven & then say - `Oh sorry about this, but really you all have to go back down again.` Now really, think about that. Christ made us for that higher calling for a specific responsibility. And.. there is NO mention of the Body of Christ in the New Jerusalem. It was promised to `those who looked for a city,` (Heb: 11) it comes DOWN out of heaven, down, down, down, to near the earth.

Marilyn,

Please note carefully what I said above "the New Jerusalem is the ETERNAL HOME OF THE CHURCH". Which in plain English means that the saints remain above and outside the earth, not "down, down, down" as you are trying to make it mean. I have already posted on numerous occasions that the Church is simultaneously the Body, the Bride, the Building and the Wife of Christ, but you continue to promote your erroneous teaching that "there is no mention of the Body of Christ in the New Jerusalem". THAT IS FALSE.

The 24 elders are representative of the WHOLE BODY OF CHRIST - `...you have redeemed us ....out of every tribe & tongue & people & nation & have made us kings & priests to our God; & we shall reign `epi` over the earth.` (Rev. 5: 9 & 10)

Once again we have false teaching in your statement above.  It is PURELY AN ASSUMPTION to claim that the 24 elders are "representative of the whole body of Christ". No they are not, and Revelation 4 and 5 make that crystal clear. There are three groups of worshipers mentioned in these chapters. We have the 24 elders in 4:4,10; 5:14, we have the four beasts (living creatures) in Rev 4:6-9; 5:14, and then we every creature in Heaven and earth and under the earth  in Rev.5:13.  But we need to go to Rev 7:9 to see the great multitude of the saints in Heaven, who are distinct from the elders.  So while the elders sing about the redemption of all the saints (Rev 5:9,10) that does not give us the liberty to spiritualize the 24 elders and make them representative of the Church.

The enemy would try to delude believers that their inheritance, their calling is to a lower level, but look into it & study this `high calling` for yourself.

This is a nonsensical statement, since I am fully aware of the high calling of the Church, its eternal inheritance, and God's eternal plans and purposes for the Church.  I have posted several times regarding this, and to talk about "the enemy" and "delusion" is quite unbecoming for one who holds some rather erroneous views. So to sum up:

NEW JERUSALEM = ETERNAL HOME OF ALL THE SAINTS

NEW JERUSALEM = ETERNAL HOME OF THE 24 ELDERS

NEW JERUSALEM = ETERNAL MANSIONS + ETERNAL INHERITANCE FOR THE SAINTS

NEW JERUSALEM = ETERNAL THRONE OF GOD AND OF THE LAMB

NEW JERUSALEM = ETERNAL LIGHT FOR THE NATIONS DWELLING ON EARTH