Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[Last Daze]

 

 

Also the 6th trumpet is descibing Armageddon, the gathering armies, and we get raptured before this war, and so the rest of mankind could also be referring to those left behind, earlier on the day of the Lord.

 

 

I thought you didn't believe in a pre-tribulational gathering of The Church by our Lord Jesus?

 

The Armageddon event is not on the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe. It's on the final 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe of Rev.11.

 

The time of God's two witnesses that prophecy in Jerusalem is for the last 1260 days of the Book of Daniel's symbolic "one week" (Dan.9:27). We are told specifically they will prophesy in Jerusalem for 1260 days before they are killed by the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit (Rev.11). The Gentiles are given to tread the holy city for 42 months, the same time of reign the dragon of Rev.13 is given to have power. Those are tribulation events. Armageddon happens at the end of the tribulation per Rev.16.

 

So, if Christ's Church is not here anymore during that 1260 days of those two witnesses prophesying, then it means to believe in a pre-tribulational or mid-trib rapture of the Church, which idea is not written in God's Word.

 

 

You are correct, I am post-trib. I believe in 3.5 future years only. Therefore I overlap all mentions of 3.5 years instead of splitting them into 2 x 3.5 year periods. You would be surprised how well everything fits. 

 

Regarding the 2 witnesses in Rev 11, this means they start their ministry near the start of the beast's 42 month  reign. They seem to have a Jewish connection (two olive trees) and their period of protection for 3.5 years then overlaps the 3.5 years of protection for Israel (the woman in Rev 12). They get resurrected at the end of the final 3.5 years which is the same time as the resurrection of the church (post-trib)

 

They preach during the 2nd woe, which precedes the third woe which is the actual second coming. This means their preaching occurs just before the second coming. The timing of chapter 11 (the two witnesses) is around the 6th trumpet which is the gathering of the armies just before the 7th trumpet. I associate this gathering of armies with Armageddon (6th trumpet) which occurs just before the seventh trumpet (the second coming)

 

And so everything fits.

 

 

I'm inclined to agree about the 42 months.  I don't divide the seven year agreement into two equal halves with all 42 month references falling in one or the other.  Each stands on its own, which may, or may not, coincide.

[Salty]

I do divide the symbolic "one week" of Dan.9:27 into two separate 1260 day periods, because that's exactly what the Dan.9:27 Scripture does as written. But the actual 'tribulation' timing was shown by Christ to start at the midpoint of the "one week", meaning the latter 1260 day half of the "one week". That latter half fits the 42 months of the dragon's reign, the 1260 days God's two witnesses prophesy in Jerusalem, and the 42 months the Gentiles are given to tread the holy city per Rev.11 & 13.

 

Now those who don't heed that division as written there, why would those do such a thing if they're serious about wanting God's Truth?

[iamlamad]

He wanted SCRIPTURE. There is much here that is NOT scripture, and more theory that does not FIT scripture.

 

Let's start with Paul at 1 Thes. 4:15 on to the end of chapter 5. That is scripture. Here is a synopsis of what Paul wrote.

 

There is coming a SUDDEN event. AT this sudden event two groups of people get two different results:

Those living in Christ get "salvation" or get raptured and so ESCAPE the "sudden destruction." those living in darkness will not escape the "sudden destruction." Paul then shows us that this sudden destruction will be the BEGINNING of the Day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath.

 

What is this "sudden destruction" Paul wrote of, that will come almost at the same instant as the catching up of the believers, both those who have passed and those alive?  When the dead in Christ rise, that event will cause a worldwide earthquake, That earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising is Paul's "sudden destruction." And that explains why those who are "in Christ" escape the sudden destruction: they are caught up in the rapture.

 

This "sudden destruction" earthquake is the same very earthquake as seen at the 6th seal. The 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age. they were told they must wait until the very last one is killed as they were killed - as a church age martyr. What will make the very last martyr of the church age? Of course the end of the church age. What will end the church age? According to Paul, the rapture of the church ENDS the church age, and time will go to the Day of the Lord. So the rapture will take place in Revelation just an instant before the 6th seal, and the great earthquake at the 6th seal will be caused by the dead in Christ rising.

 

It is no mistake then, that in Rev. 7, shortly after the 6th seal, John saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN. (think John 14 along with 1 Thes. 4:16) Please note that John has not yet even started the 70th week of Daniel. So the rapture is for sure, PRETRIB or pre-70th week. John must get two events written before He can start the 70th week. Those two events, the sealing of the 144,000 for their protection, and the rapture of the church MUST take place before the Day of His wrath begins, for God has promised us that He will set no appointment for us with His wrath. This is EXACTLY what Revelation shows us: the church was seen in heaven before the "trib" or 70th week begins.

 

Please note, the TRUTH: the seals are not a part of the "trib" or 70th week, NOR are they a part of God's wrath. It is silly to think God is angry with the martyrs. No, He is not angry with them. His wrath begins with the great earthquake which begins the Day of His wrath. Then He will get the 144,000 seals quickly before He begins the trumpet judgments.

 

The gathering as seen in matthew 24 is not about Paul's rapture. It is quite likely God gathering all of israel (from both heaven and earth) back to Israel as He has promised them. It is silly to even think that is Paul's rapture, for His rapture will gather from EARTH, but this gathering in Matthew 24 gathers from HEAVEN. How could that possibly be Paul's rapture? The truth is, IT IS NOT Paul's rapture. It does not fit.

 

Next, Jesus does NOT come at the end of the 70th week. The week ends at the 7th vial, but Jesus REMAINS IN HEAVEN for the marriage and supper - perhaps as much as 30 more days. NO ONE will know the day by counting from the abomination.

 

FInally, the scripture of the marriage and supper taking place in heaven is PROOF POSITIVE that Post trib is false doctrine. That doctrine would have the church missing the marriage, so this scripture in Rev. 19 is another proof if a pretrib rapture.

 

Matthew 25, and the story of the judgment of the nations is yet another proof of the pretrib rapture. As has been pointed out, if all the righteous were changed the moment Jesus descended, the rapture would do the separating, and there would be NO SHEEP for the judgment; neither would there be any righteous with natural bodies to enter the millennial kingdom. For sure, post trib doctrine is gross error.

 

No post tribber yet has ever solved these last two problems mentioned: how they will get to the marriage and how the earth will be repopulated.

 

LAMAD

[ARGOSY]

 

 

I'm inclined to agree about the 42 months.  I don't divide the seven year agreement into two equal halves with all 42 month references falling in one or the other.  Each stands on its own, which may, or may not, coincide.

 

 

Yes although I go one step further and assume they ALL co-incide.   I overlap every 3.5 year period into one short sharp tribulation known as the great tribulation.

[ARGOSY]

I do divide the symbolic "one week" of Dan.9:27 into two separate 1260 day periods, because that's exactly what the Dan.9:27 Scripture does as written. But the actual 'tribulation' timing was shown by Christ to start at the midpoint of the "one week", meaning the latter 1260 day half of the "one week". That latter half fits the 42 months of the dragon's reign, the 1260 days God's two witnesses prophesy in Jerusalem, and the 42 months the Gentiles are given to tread the holy city per Rev.11 & 13.

 

Now those who don't heed that division as written there, why would those do such a thing if they're serious about wanting God's Truth?

 

 

Because the wording of the first 3.5 years fits the timing and events of Jesus' ministry perfectly.  So if that is past history , this leaves only the great tribulation as future, and this is the reason all those 3.5 year periods describing the tribulation overlap so well.

1) 

[Salty]

 

I do divide the symbolic "one week" of Dan.9:27 into two separate 1260 day periods, because that's exactly what the Dan.9:27 Scripture does as written. But the actual 'tribulation' timing was shown by Christ to start at the midpoint of the "one week", meaning the latter 1260 day half of the "one week". That latter half fits the 42 months of the dragon's reign, the 1260 days God's two witnesses prophesy in Jerusalem, and the 42 months the Gentiles are given to tread the holy city per Rev.11 & 13.

 

Now those who don't heed that division as written there, why would those do such a thing if they're serious about wanting God's Truth?

 

 

Because the wording of the first 3.5 years fits the timing and events of Jesus' ministry perfectly.  So if that is past history , this leaves only the great tribulation as future, and this is the reason all those 3.5 year periods describing the tribulation overlap so well.

1) 

 

 

But actually, the Dan.9:27 wording does not... fit anything about Christ's Ministry.

 

Jesus didn't make any 7 year covenant that ended in the middle of the 7 years. He offered The New Covenant of His Blood shed upon His cross to all who would believe, from the time He was preached in Jerusalem and then to the Gentiles, even up til today. So by modifying the Dan.9:27 Scripture by saying it doesn't mean a 7 year period, or that it fits Christ's Ministry when it clearly does not, just to fit some erroneous doctrine of men that it involved Christ's Ministry on earth is nothing but pure butchering of the Scriptures.

 

 

The covenant referred to in Dan.9:27 is the "league" of Dan.11:23 the "vile person" makes to become strong with a small people.

[He giveth more grace]

Salty's quote:

"Jesus didn't make any 7 year covenant...."

Correct, the AntiChrist will parlay a 7 year treaty between Israel and the Arabs.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

I do divide the symbolic "one week" of Dan.9:27 into two separate 1260 day periods, because that's exactly what the Dan.9:27 Scripture does as written. But the actual 'tribulation' timing was shown by Christ to start at the midpoint of the "one week", meaning the latter 1260 day half of the "one week". That latter half fits the 42 months of the dragon's reign, the 1260 days God's two witnesses prophesy in Jerusalem, and the 42 months the Gentiles are given to tread the holy city per Rev.11 & 13.

 

Now those who don't heed that division as written there, why would those do such a thing if they're serious about wanting God's Truth?

 

 

Because the wording of the first 3.5 years fits the timing and events of Jesus' ministry perfectly.  So if that is past history , this leaves only the great tribulation as future, and this is the reason all those 3.5 year periods describing the tribulation overlap so well.

1) 

 

 

But actually, the Dan.9:27 wording does not... fit anything about Christ's Ministry.

 

Jesus didn't make any 7 year covenant that ended in the middle of the 7 years. He offered The New Covenant of His Blood shed upon His cross to all who would believe, from the time He was preached in Jerusalem and then to the Gentiles, even up til today. So by modifying the Dan.9:27 Scripture by saying it doesn't mean a 7 year period, or that it fits Christ's Ministry when it clearly does not, just to fit some erroneous doctrine of men that it involved Christ's Ministry on earth is nothing but pure butchering of the Scriptures.

 

 

The covenant referred to in Dan.9:27 is the "league" of Dan.11:23 the "vile person" makes to become strong with a small people.

 

 

The actual Hebrew is "gve strength to a covenant", often translated as "confirm a covenant".

 

God promised Jews a Messiah to set them free, for 3.5 years of Jesus' ministry he did so.

In the great tribulation (3.5 years)  Jews will also be open to the gospel until the second coming. 

 

So for 7 years Jesus will be confirmed as Messiah to the Jews.

[Salty]

 

 

 

I do divide the symbolic "one week" of Dan.9:27 into two separate 1260 day periods, because that's exactly what the Dan.9:27 Scripture does as written. But the actual 'tribulation' timing was shown by Christ to start at the midpoint of the "one week", meaning the latter 1260 day half of the "one week". That latter half fits the 42 months of the dragon's reign, the 1260 days God's two witnesses prophesy in Jerusalem, and the 42 months the Gentiles are given to tread the holy city per Rev.11 & 13.

 

Now those who don't heed that division as written there, why would those do such a thing if they're serious about wanting God's Truth?

 

 

Because the wording of the first 3.5 years fits the timing and events of Jesus' ministry perfectly.  So if that is past history , this leaves only the great tribulation as future, and this is the reason all those 3.5 year periods describing the tribulation overlap so well.

1) 

 

 

But actually, the Dan.9:27 wording does not... fit anything about Christ's Ministry.

 

Jesus didn't make any 7 year covenant that ended in the middle of the 7 years. He offered The New Covenant of His Blood shed upon His cross to all who would believe, from the time He was preached in Jerusalem and then to the Gentiles, even up til today. So by modifying the Dan.9:27 Scripture by saying it doesn't mean a 7 year period, or that it fits Christ's Ministry when it clearly does not, just to fit some erroneous doctrine of men that it involved Christ's Ministry on earth is nothing but pure butchering of the Scriptures.

 

 

The covenant referred to in Dan.9:27 is the "league" of Dan.11:23 the "vile person" makes to become strong with a small people.

 

 

The actual Hebrew is "gve strength to a covenant", often translated as "confirm a covenant".

 

God promised Jews a Messiah to set them free, for 3.5 years of Jesus' ministry he did so.

In the great tribulation (3.5 years)  Jews will also be open to the gospel until the second coming. 

 

So for 7 years Jesus will be confirmed as Messiah to the Jews.

 

 

Peace pacts have already been offered between Israel and the Arab nations for how long now? Definitely for all of my lifetime, and before I was born.

 

When the Antichrist comes to make that "league" of Dan.11:21, how will that not be seen in relation to all the proposed but failed peace pacts made historically?

 

So like I said, there is nothing written in The New Testament Books about some 7 year covenant, period, regardless of how one wants to use the idea of it being confirmed.

[He giveth more grace]

Salty, you are on sifting sand in regards to this, friend.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. And for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." Daniel 9:27

One week in the Bible equals 7 years.