Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[Revelation Man]

16 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Yes, everyone's eschatology is right in their own eyes.  The thing is that we are never told to figure it all out, only to be ready and alert for His return.  I think we can all agree that there will be a man of sin who exalts himself and demands worship, and that believers are not to worship him.  That to me is essential eschatology. 

Whether we think we will be here for that or not is irrelevant.  What matters is that we have separated ourselves from the world and walk in the truth, what believers are supposed to do regardless.  Then we will be alert and ready for whatever comes our way and will have the discernment to make godly decisions when our eschatology fails us.  Insisting that our "God-breathed" understanding is infallible to the point of strife and contention serves no useful purpose and in my opinion points to a different source.  I've been down that road.

Let us encourage each other to walk in the light of truth.

I have been working the Trump Train for a few days. If the Rapture timing didn't change anything I would agree, but it actually changes much, and if even one person went through the tribulation because they tarried from their decision for Christ because they wrongly were told they had to go through the tribulation, that would make you feel awful right ? So why not lets get it right, God is not telling the Church they are going through the tribulation, He just is not. 

 

You see, I can explain every deception that Satan throws around about the timing of the Rapture. NO ONE can explain how we come back with Jesus from Heaven on White Horses in Rev. 19 unless we are Raptured. I explain that the Bride and Bridegroom stay in the Wedding Chamber for 7 Days.  I explain that in the Jewish wedding that the father of the groom tells the bridegroom when to go and get his bride, the son doesn't know the timing. I explain how Jesus told the Church I chose you, you didn't chose me. I explained how the father of the bride must be reimbursed and how Jesus paid the price with his blood. I explained how the bride by drinking a glass of wine agrees/makes a covenant to the wedding, and how the church drinks Jesus' blood. How the Bride recieves a gift and the Church received the Holy Spirit as a gift.

 

I explained how the betrothed bride would then purify herself, in a mikvah (pool of water, and how we the bride are Baptized. I explained how the groom would prepare a place in his fathers house, then come back for her, the father was of course married himself, and the Father has a Bride, Israel who became a Harlot, whom He must bring to repentance in Jacobs Trouble. We do not need to go through this time of trouble, we are not backslidden, but we are in Christ Jesus and ready to be taken to the bridal chambers in the Fathers House. The Father determines when the room is ready.

 

I explained how the bride is consecrated/set apart...But ye are a chosen generation, a priesthood. I explained how the Bridegroom returns with a shout, right after the father sends him for the bride.“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.” 

 

It is called Jacobs Trouble, it is designed to make Israel, the Fathers bride Repent. It can not make the Church of Jesus Christ Repent, we are already in Christ Jesus via his Blood. To see if we can pass a test or temptation Just for the sake of it is not of God. We are tested by the world, if we are in Christ we are ready to go to the marriage chamber. Did the groom in Israel take his wife and cast her before heathen to see if they would beat her and rape her ? Nonsense.

[Last Daze]

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

If the Rapture timing didn't change anything I would agree, but it actually changes much, and if even one person went through the tribulation because they tarried from their decision for Christ because they wrongly were told they had to go through the tribulation, that would make you feel awful right ? So why not lets get it right, God is not telling the Church they are going through the tribulation, He just is not.

That is a presumption on your part.  Do you really think that people let their view of the rapture affect their love for Jesus?  If someone's going to slack off and go embrace the world because they think they "have time", how much love did they really have for the Lord?  Seems more like an argument used to justify pretrib relevance.

You really need to reconsider the whole "pretrib is true, thus saith the Lord" notion that you're putting forth.  That's heading into dangerous territory and you run the risk of becoming a false prophet.

[Last Daze]

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Did the groom in Israel take his wife and cast her before heathen to see if they would beat her and rape her ? Nonsense.

That analogy is so irrelevant its ridiculous.  Have you not read any of what the early church, and others through the years have endured?  Or do you not consider them part of the "bride"?  What a terrible use of rhetoric.

 

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, Last Daze said:

That is a presumption on your part.  Do you really think that people let their view of the rapture affect their love for Jesus?  If someone's going to slack off and go embrace the world because they think they "have time", how much love did they really have for the Lord?  Seems more like an argument used to justify pretrib relevance.

You really need to reconsider the whole "pretrib is true, thus saith the Lord" notion that you're putting forth.  That's heading into dangerous territory and you run the risk of becoming a false prophet.

You do not get the point at all. Many younger people will say " Well, I have to go through this Tribulation period anyway, that's what they say, I might as well wait a while to change my ways", if you don't think young people think like this then you are in your own little world. 

 

3 hours ago, Last Daze said:

That analogy is so irrelevant its ridiculous.  Have you not read any of what the early church, and others through the years have endured?  Or do you not consider them part of the "bride"?  What a terrible use of rhetoric.

 

I want to yell with every fiber of my being, that's so ignorant !! What's the difference ? The world was entirely Satans then, save Israel who was also backslidden. The whole world was dark, so yes it took sacrifice to overcome the darkness and spread the Gospel. Nowadays people are murdered in the same way IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES............But we do not have to SPREAD THE GOSPEL anymore after Jesus comes for the Church, the time of the GENTILES WILL HAVE BEEN FULFILLED, they died to spread the Gospel, the 144,000, Two=Witnesses and Angel will preach the Gospel HENCEFORTH after the Rapture, AGAIN I ASK WHY ? What reason are we left in the world ? We will not be needed to spread the Gospel henceforth !!

 

YOU GUYS JUST DO NOT SEE THE BIG PICTURE...............Everything you see is off kilter. 

[Last Daze]

7 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

You do not get the point at all. Many younger people will say " Well, I have to go through this Tribulation period anyway, that's what they say, I might as well wait a while to change my ways", if you don't think young people think like this then you are in your own little world. 

 

I want to yell with every fiber of my being, that's so ignorant !! What's the difference ? The world was entirely Satans then, save Israel who was also backslidden. The whole world was dark, so yes it took sacrifice to overcome the darkness and spread the Gospel. Nowadays people are murdered in the same way IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES............But we do not have to SPREAD THE GOSPEL anymore after Jesus comes for the Church, the time of the GENTILES WILL HAVE BEEN FULFILLED, they died to spread the Gospel, the 144,000, Two=Witnesses and Angel will preach the Gospel HENCEFORTH after the Rapture, AGAIN I ASK WHY ? What reason are we left in the world ? We will not be needed to spread the Gospel henceforth !!

 

YOU GUYS JUST DO NOT SEE THE BIG PICTURE...............Everything you see is off kilter. 

Please pardon my "ignorance."  I didn't realize that Satan wasn't the god of this world anymore.  When did that change?

So then, are you telling us unequivocally that the Holy Spirit has anointed you to declare that "thus says the Lord, the pretrib doctrine is true?"  I'd like this specific question answered.  This is what you're leading us to believe with your "unctions."  If not then please describe the difference.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

 

Edited November 1, 2016 by Marcus O'Reillius

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You do not get the point at all. Many younger people will say " Well, I have to go through this Tribulation period anyway, that's what they say, I might as well wait a while to change my ways", if you don't think young people think like this then you are in your own little world. 

It seems that you think everyone should convert to Christianity at the time and manner of your choosing. There is only one path to the kingdom of heaven, Jesus Christ, but many paths to Jesus. How is it that a group or individuals can attempt to dictate for others a matter of the heart? Looks to me like this attitude is coercion. None of us have any power to convert anyone to belief, that's the domain of the spirit. We spread the good news and the Holy Ghost convicts of sin and converts sinners to righteousness. The time and manner of that conversion belongs to the Mighty God, not you. Not me. Not anyone.  Your 'argument' falls flat. 

Maybe you're saying that if people don't convert to christianity when you think they should the conversion is less meaningful? Or it isn't as pure? Or not righteous enough? Or maybe you think they don't deserve a seat at the table because they were just converted yesterday? After all, the rest of us have been believers for decades so we are all better then new converts, and maybe they should be serving us and sweeping the floor. 

 

I want to yell with every fiber of my being, that's so ignorant !! This is what I mean. It's your way and everyone else is ignorant, unthinking or irrational. I think your insults betray you. The following is what Pretib looks like to me.

2 Tim 3 

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 What's the difference ? The world was entirely Satans then, save Israel who was also backslidden. The whole world was dark, so yes it took sacrifice to overcome the darkness and spread the Gospel. Nowadays people are murdered in the same way IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES............But we do not have to SPREAD THE GOSPEL anymore after Jesus comes for the Church, the time of the GENTILES WILL HAVE BEEN FULFILLED, they died to spread the Gospel, the 144,000, Two=Witnesses and Angel will preach the Gospel HENCEFORTH after the Rapture, AGAIN I ASK WHY ?

What reason are we left in the world ? For the purposes of purification. I think it arrogant that pretrib adherents are so convinced of their own spiritual perfection, rigid integrity to the Law, and the purest form of love, that a group of millions are taken off the earth in the manner of Enoch and Elijah, and such a monumental, world changing, paradigm shifting event is no where in scripture. Pre trib has to concoct dozens of assumption based facts to arrive at such a conclusion, while ignoring the reality of what scripture teaches and the current state of the contemporary christian church. Christians around the world are persecuted and killed everyday for the name of Jesus. What do you say to them? What do you say to the untold millions of believers, from Abel to today, that have been abused and killed for their trust and belief in God? Even the apostle Paul was was horribly abused by the Jews for his belief in Jesus.

2 Tim 3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

And Jesus was tortured and killed too, if you remember. Why does the western church think they are more perfect, more spiritual, more special than any other christian? This is what the western church looks like to me: Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

The following disputes pretrib epistemology.

Acts 5:41

So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name.

Acts 9:16

for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake."

Romans 8:17

and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Romans 8:36

Just as it is written, "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."

2 Corinthians 11:23

Are they servants of Christ?--I speak as if insane--I more so; in far more labors, in far more imprisonments, beaten times without number, often in danger of death.

Hebrews 11:25

choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,

James 5:10

As an example, brethren, of suffering and patience, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord.

1 Peter 4:16

but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name.

Matthew 5:11

"Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.

Matthew 10:22

"You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

Matthew 10:39

"He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.  (The danger of Pretrib. Trying to save your life instead of giving it up and trusting Jesus)

2 Corinthians 4:11

For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.

2 Corinthians 12:10

Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

Philippians 1:29

For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

The above verses tell us we are in Christ we suffer in His name. I think Pretrib is just afraid of this idea and does not trust that God will deliver us from all our troubles. I see your insults and condescension as the fulfillment of; 

Matthew 5:11

"Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me." 

YOU GUYS JUST DO NOT SEE THE BIG PICTURE...............Everything you see is off kilter. 

And you know this, how? EVERYTHING we see? EVERYTHING? Do you not realize the implications of such a statement? You are telling us you know everything we see and think, and it's all wrong. You are also saying you know what is purely correct, so can judge right from wrong, and this allows you to declare, "Incorrect!" in a sweeping generalization.  In essence proclaiming you know everything and "you guys" know nothing. In one statement you managed to convey prejudice, bigotry, arrogance, condescension and omniscience. Bravo!

 

[Revelation Man]

On 11/1/2016 at 0:53 PM, Last Daze said:

Please pardon my "ignorance."  I didn't realize that Satan wasn't the god of this world anymore.  When did that change?

So then, are you telling us unequivocally that the Holy Spirit has anointed you to declare that "thus says the Lord, the pretrib doctrine is true?"  I'd like this specific question answered.  This is what you're leading us to believe with your "unctions."  If not then please describe the difference.

The Whole world was in darkness, and hopeless until Jesus died for our sins. We now have victory over Satan, we just have to accept it. Whereas before Jesus, Satan ruled the whole world. That is why God destroyed the whole world, it became so evil. He is only the god of this world because people refuse to accept Christ, if everyone accepted Christ and lived in Christ Satan would have no power, but he does. 

I hear the voice of the Holy Spirit. The Rapture is pre-trib, that is just a fact. Facts are facts are they not ?

 

Do you not understand the voice of the Holy Spirit ?

[Revelation Man]

On 11/2/2016 at 8:27 AM, Diaste said:

It seems that you think everyone should convert to Christianity at the time and manner of your choosing. There is only one path to the kingdom of heaven, Jesus Christ, but many paths to Jesus. How is it that a group or individuals can attempt to dictate for others a matter of the heart? Looks to me like this attitude is coercion. None of us have any power to convert anyone to belief, that's the domain of the spirit. We spread the good news and the Holy Ghost convicts of sin and converts sinners to righteousness. The time and manner of that conversion belongs to the Mighty God, not you. Not me. Not anyone.  Your 'argument' falls flat. 

Maybe you're saying that if people don't convert to christianity when you think they should the conversion is less meaningful? Or it isn't as pure? Or not righteous enough? Or maybe you think they don't deserve a seat at the table because they were just converted yesterday? After all, the rest of us have been believers for decades so we are all better then new converts, and maybe they should be serving us and sweeping the floor. 

 

This is absolutely irrelevant to my point. I stated what I stated. If people are told the falsehood that they are going through the tribulation, then they might delay their decision and actually go through the tribulation. I will be in Heaven.  The facts are the facts, if sinners are told you are going through the tribulation anyway, some will just put of becoming a Christian, But if they are told the truth, that they can be raptued to Heaven and avoid the coming tribulation, many will fear the Lord and come to Christ. The Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom.

 

On 11/2/2016 at 8:27 AM, Diaste said:

On 11/1/2016 at 0:22 PM, Revelation Man said:

And you know this, how? EVERYTHING we see? EVERYTHING? Do you not realize the implications of such a statement? You are telling us you know everything we see and think, and it's all wrong. You are also saying you know what is purely correct, so can judge right from wrong, and this allows you to declare, "Incorrect!" in a sweeping generalization.  In essence proclaiming you know everything and "you guys" know nothing. In one statement you managed to convey prejudice, bigotry, arrogance, condescension and omniscience. Bravo!

 

I know you have no clue about the Rapture, you admit this.

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

This is absolutely irrelevant to my point. I stated what I stated. If people are told the falsehood that they are going through the tribulation, then they might delay their decision and actually go through the tribulation. I will be in Heaven.  The facts are the facts, if sinners are told you are going through the tribulation anyway, some will just put of becoming a Christian, But if they are told the truth, that they can be raptued to Heaven and avoid the coming tribulation, many will fear the Lord and come to Christ. The Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom.

Nobody I know ever preaches salvation by saying, "Well, your going through the tribulation anyway."  I have never heard of anyone saying, "I believe I have sinned, I believe I am a sinner, I believe I need salvation, I believe Jesus is salvation, I don't want to be punished for eternity. I'm gonna wait until the Tribulation to repent." No one knows when the Tribulation begins, or if we will see it in our lifetime. This is not a strong argument for advancing a position. Since I have open lines of dialogue with many unbelievers and believers I can say with assurance that the scenario you propose has never come up and likely doesn't exist. 

The truth is all have sinned. All.

Truth: Any one of us can die in the next moment.

More truth: The day of salvation is now.

Conclusion: Waiting for a speculative event or time period to act is ludicrous.

 

I know you have no clue about the Rapture, you admit this.

When I first heard about the 2nd coming I read everything Hal Lindsey published. Read some Walvoord stuff and LaHaye as well. I fully bought into their position for  decades. But there were so many contradictions, unanswered questions and weak facts that I kept searching. In the end pretrib makes no sense according to the words of Jesus in Matt 24. Fact is I could argue for PreTrib as well as anyone but I don't because it's incorrect. 

The real problem is not that people will wait to repent when it gets bad. If a person does wait to make a decision for Jesus when life suddenly becomes difficult or intolerable, their salvation is still valid and assured. A person is still saved no matter when they finally repent, whether today or in a hundred years. When doesn't matter, only that they do repent, under any circumstance. The real issue is creating a false narrative and advancing a false hope.

Millions of pre trib adherents will be waiting for an imminent snatching away. When this does not happen as they believe, then what? When they see the deadly head wound healed and the dragon walking the earth and the false prophet creating stunning miracles in great spiritual power, what do they believe then? Pre trib leaves all it's followers spiritually unprepared for this eventuality.