Jesus' Return II

[Daniel 11:36]

The seals are not events, but a sequence given of Revelation's coming events after Revelation chapter 3

 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

The seals are not events, but a sequence given of Revelation's coming events after Revelation chapter 3

 

Sorry, but this is not really truth. The seals were sealing a book or scroll that was in the Father's hand - until Jesus ascended back into heaven after raising from the dead and took the book from the Father. He immediately began breaking or opening these seals. It seems each seal had some writing that was readable when that seal was opened.  Or else there was something each seal was to represent.

Seal 1:  the Church sent out with the Gospel - rides alone

 

Seal 2: the Red horse and rider to bring war............. These Three

Seal 3: the Black horse and rider to bring famine...........ride

Seal 4: the pale horse and rider to bring death.............Together

Seals 2 through 4 ride together - to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel - but they were limited to 1/4 the surface of the earth. We can be sure this 1/4 would be centered on Jerusalem where the gospel started. That would then include Europe and Africa with the Middle East between.

Where were the two world wars started? Of course Europe. Where did the black plague (death) hit twice - eacn time killing around 1/3 of the population? Europe. Where have many famines been in the hast hundred years or so? Africa.

Seal 5:  the martyrs of the church age - is the first  hint of a long waiting period. Jesus stopped breaking seals with #5. It was for the martyrs of the church age. We are still waiting for the 6th seal that starts the Day of the Lord.

Therefore, the church has been between the 5th and 6th seal in Revelation since around 32 AD.

Edited June 28, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, inchrist said:

Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep.

versus 

Rev 

And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood? (punish (1), take...revenge )

 

Stephens words do not line up with the 5th seal, two different motives.

 

How do you know what Stephen cried out AFTER He was dead?

Were they criticized for their question? No. They were told how long they would have to wait. Without a doubt, Stephen knew that "Vengeance is mine, says the Lord."

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, inchrist said:

I did not say there was no woman attending the church. I was addressing the spirit of Jezebel and addressing the fact the 7 letters are prophetic for end times, giving you I believe some examples...did I not? 

Adam Clarke Commentary
That woman Jezebel - There is an allusion here to the history of Ahab and Jezebel, as given in 2 Kings 9:1-10:36;

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible
Notwithstanding, I have a few things against thee - Compare notes on Revelation 2:4.
Because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel - Thou dost tolerate, or countenance her. Compare the notes on Revelation 2:14. Who the individual here referred to by the name Jezebel was, is not known. It is by no means probable that this was her real name, but seems to have been given to her as expressive of her character and influence. Jezebel was the wife of Ahab

Coffman's Commentaries on the Bible Whatever her actual name might have been, the Lord called her "Jezebel," after the "wicked queen of that name who tried to establish an idolatrous cult in the place of the worship of Yahweh 

The allusion is fitting for Mystery Babylon, you have no scriptaul bases 

show me historically where this has been fulfilled....yes? no?? Dont know??

So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

Clearly imagery is not your strong point.

 

The answer is NO, not in light with the prophetic nature of the letter, which you can not conclude it has been fulfilled historically. 
 

looks like Adam Clarke, Albert Barnes and Coffman must also wake up, it appears everybody must wake up.

is that you waking up now or is it still me that needs to wake up?

It would not have a continual action if the context dictates otherwise, otherwise the natural greek tense is to be applied being a continuous action, you have no context to dictate otherwise

one word....CONTEXT

In the context.....

Next time you quote from the commentators, how about you actually quote the whole context

came—rather as Greek, "come"; implying that they are just come.

great tribulation—Greek, "THE great tribulation"; "the tribulation, the great one," namely, the tribulation to which the martyrs were exposed under the fifth seal,

Jamieson is in agreement with me that the GREAT TRIBULATION starts at the 5th seal

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

And he said to me . . .—Read, And he said to me, These are they who come (the present tense is used: these are those coming) out of the great tribulation. They are those who come, not all at once, but gradually. 

and lastly one of the greatest NT Greek scholars of our modern time, whos works are aactually studied by scholars DR AT Robertson

I say (eirhka). Perfect active indicative of eipon, "I have said." "To the Seer's mind the whole scene was still fresh and vivid" (Swete) like kekragen in John 1:15 and eilhpen in Revelation 5:7 , not the so-called "aoristic perfect" which even Moulton (Prol. p. 145) is disposed to admit. My lord (Kurie mou). "An address of reverence to a heavenly being" (Vincent), not an act of worship on John's part. Thou knowest (su oida). "At once a confession of ignorance, and an appeal for information" (Swete), not of full confidence like su oida in John 21:15 . They which come out of the great tribulation (oi ercomenoi ek th qlipsew th megalh). Present middle participle with the idea of continued repetition. "The martyrs are still arriving from the scene of the great tribulation" (Charles). Apparently some great crisis is contemplated ( Matthew 13:19 ; Matthew 24:21 ; Mark 13:10 ), though the whole series may be in mind and so may anticipate final judgment. And they washed (kai eplunan). First aorist active indicative of plunw, old verb, to wash, in N.T. only Luke 5:2 ; Revelation 7:14 ; Revelation 22:14 . This change of construction after oi ercomenoi from oi plunhsante to kai eplunan is common in the Apocalypse, one of Charles's Hebraisms, like kai epoihsen in Revelation 1:6 and kai planai in Revelation 2:20 . 

again another illusion to Rev 2:20

Actually the majority of the commentators are in my favour, but I guess they also need to wake up

Actually, I disagree with most of the commentators on much of what they wrote about Revelation.  But that is beside the point. We got distracted on Jezebel. We were talking about "great tribulation" and if in this verse it meant the days of GT that Jesus spoke of. It seems the commentators are divided on that issue.

By the way, we don't know but what Jezebel repented.

So concerning the great crowd seen in Rev. 7, did they arrive one by one or is this the raptured church that was raptured together?  I could have listed far more scriptures, but the ones I did list shows us this very same word can be used for a ONE TIME coming.

I am still convinced this great crowd  - too large to number -  is the raptured church. I am furthered convinced that when that times comes, we will find it IS the raptured church. Of course you will disagree. The very size of the crowd is simply too large to be martyrs of the GT Jesus spoke of.

[Marilyn C]

11 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi Marilyn

Thanks for pointing all that out, ....Rev 15:5 is the bees knees!

Can I just ask your opinion on one thing?.....do you think that angels can be called saints also?  Just wondering.

 

Hi Sister,

Great we agree. Now I do not think angels can be called saints. And good discussion you are all having.

Marilyn.

[fixerupper]

Here are a few questions for Lamad,
1. Christ is the ONE opening the seals, why would he be one of the riders? 

2. Christ or the gospel is never associated with a bow which is 'usually' associated with evil.  

3. Christ rides a white horse and wears a diadem. This rider of Rev. 6:2 wears a 'stephanos.' 

4. Why would Christ be the first rider representing the gospel, and the other three bad guys with bad things that follow? We've always depicted the four as, 'riding together' considering them to be confederate.

5. ANY theory that claims these seals opened in the first century, 'before' the prophecies were written', actually makes John a false prophet. I know most people disagree with me but it's the truth!  Jesus was around close to 50-60 years before John wrote this.

Edited June 29, 2017 by fixerupper

[Marilyn C]

7 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

I agree that the angels are dressed in the same manner, but scripture says He will bring with Him those who are asleep as well.

I Thessalonians 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

God bless

Hi wingnut,

That`s good that you agree the angels are described as holy by - linen clean and white. Now we need to look at who the `army` is throughout God`s word. They are the angels and the Lord is the captain of them.

Marilyn.

[iamlamad]

On 6/27/2017 at 6:01 PM, HAZARD said:

As I mentioned in my earlier posts, According to many Bible scholars and historians the great whore is identified as a great religious system, the RCC, which they claim will fulfil Rev. 17 and dominate the Antichrist for a short time during his rise over the ten kings and until the middle of the Week. Then the beast and the ten kings will destroy her Rev. 17:9-17. Even Catholic divines admit Rev. 17 is a description of their church. See the writing s of Cardinal Ballimor and the French Prelate, Boussuet. She has a name on her forhead, "Mystery Babylon The Great."

What is the historic relation of Babylon to the city of Rome and the Roman Church, and why should Romanism be called Babylon in mystery? That the cities of Rome and Babylon were related seems to have been well known in earlier days.

It is simple to trace in the archives of history the relation of Babylon in Rome and to the Roman church. First look at the history of ancient Babylon. This city was built by Nimrod, the mighty hunter (Gen. 10:8-10). It was the seat of the first great apostasy against God after the flood. Here the Babylonian Cult was invented by Nimrod and his queen Semiraamis. It was a system claiming the highest wisdom and ability to reveal the most divine secrets. This cult was characterized by the word "MYSTERY" because of its systemof mysteries.

Besides confessing to the priests at admission, one was compelled to drink of "mysterious beverages, which says Salvert (Des Sciences Occults, page 259) was indispensable on the part of those who sought initiation into these mysteries."

The "mysterious beverages" were composed of wine, honey, water, and flour. They were always of an intoxicating nature, and until the aspirants had come under the influence of it and had their understanding dimmed they were not prepared for what they would see and hear.

The method was to introduce privately, little by little, information under seal of secrecy and sanction of oath that would be impossible to reveal otherwise. This has been the policy of the Roman Church and the secret of the power of the priests over the lives of men whom they could expose to the world for their sins that have been confessed to them. Once admitted, men were no longer Babylonians, Assyrians,  or Egyptians but were members of a mystical brotherhood, over whom was placed a Supreme Pontiff of High Priest who's word was final in all things in the lives of the brotherhood regardless of the country in which they lived.

The ostensible objects of worship were the Supreme Father, the Incarnate Female, or Queen of Heaven, and her son. The last two were really the only objects of worship as the Supreme Father was said not to interfere with the moral affairs (Nimrod 111 page 239). This system is believed to have come from fallen angels and demons. The object of the cult was to rule the world by these dogmas.

In the days of Nimrod this cult secured a deep hold on the whole human race for it was of one language and all were one people. Nimrod gained the title "might hunter" because of his success in building cities with walls to free men from the ravages of wild beasts which were multiplying against men. He was called "The Apostate" because he sought to free men from the idea of God and His wrath. As a great deliverer and protector of the people and as the head of a godless civilization at that time he would naturally have a great influence upon the people. He led them astray to such an extent that they glorified the fact that they were free from the faith of their fathers.

All tradition from the earliest time bears witness of this great apostasy, which finally reached such proportions that people defied God to send another flood to destroy them and they built a great tower to escape it.

The result was that God confused their language and scattered them throughout the earth. This Babylonian system was the one which the devil had planned to counteract the truth of God. From Babylon it spread to the ends of the earth and we have record that Abraham was chosen of God from all the idolatrous nations to represent the true God.

Through Abraham, God planned to bring man back to Himself. This explains how the different nations of the world have traditions and religions somewhat similar, with changes suitable to the individual nations.

After the nations were scattered abroad, Babylon continued to be the seat of Satan" until it was taken by Xerxas in 784 B.C. The Babylonian priesthood was then forced to leave Babylon, so it moved to Pergamos, which was the headquarters for some time. When Attalus, the Pontiff and King of Pergamos died, he bequeathed the headship of the Babylonian priesthood to Rome. When Etruscans  came to Italy from Lydia (The region of Pergamos) they brought with them the Babylonian religion and rites. They set up a Pontiff who was the head of the priesthood and he had the power of life and death of them all. Later the Romans accepted this Pontiff as their civil ruler.

Julius Caesar was made Supreme Pontiff of the Etruscan Order, he was made Supreme Pontiff of the Babylonian Order, thereby becoming heir to the rites and titles of Attalus, who had made Rome his heir by will.

Thus, the first Roman Emperer became the head of the Babylonian priesthood and became the successor of Babylon with Pergamos as the seat of this cult. Henceforth, Rom's religion has been that of Babylon. In the year 218 A.D. the Roman army in Syria, having rebelled against Macrinus, elected Elagabalus emperor. This man was High Priest of the Egyptian branch of Babylonianism.  He was shortly afterward chosen Supreme Pontiff by the Romans, and thus the two western branches of the Babylonian apostasy centered in the Roman Emperors who continued to hold this office until 367 A. D. At that time, however, the Emperor Gratian, for Christian reasons refused it, because he saw that by nature Babylonianism was idolatrous. Thus, religious matters became disorganized until it became necessary to elect someone to fill that office.

Damasus, Bishop of the Christian Church at Rome, was then elected to the office of supreme Pontiff. He had been bishop for twelve years,  having been made such in 366 A. D. through the influence of the monks of Mount Carmel, a college of the Babylonian religion originally founded by the priests of Jezebel and continued to this day in connection with Rome. So in 378 A.D., the Babylonian system of religion became part of Christendom, for the Bishop of Rome, who later became the supreme head of the organized church, was already Supreme Pontiff of the Babylonian Order.

All the teachings of Pagan Babylon and Rome were gradually interspersed into the Christian religious organizations. Soon after Damasus was made Supreme Pontiff, the rites of Babylon began to come to the front. The worship of the Roman church became babylonish and under him the heathen temples were restored and beautified and the rituals established. Thus the corrupt religious system under the figure of a woman with a golden cup in her hand, making all nations drunk with ther fornication, is called by God, "MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT.

 

 

 Much of what you wrote may be true, but the fact still remains, the "Babylon the great" of Rev. 17 & 18 is speaking of the great city Jerusalem during the time the Beast and False prophet deceive the entire world.  Do you get that? No false religion or even all the false religions of the past together have ever come close to what is coming in the future.  The ENTIRE WORLD will be deceived except for those whose names are written in the book.

[HAZARD]

2 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

 Much of what you wrote may be true, but the fact still remains, the "Babylon the great" of Rev. 17 & 18 is speaking of the great city Jerusalem during the time the Beast and False prophet deceive the entire world.  Do you get that? No false religion or even all the false religions of the past together have ever come close to what is coming in the future.  The ENTIRE WORLD will be deceived except for those whose names are written in the book.

Not much of it, all of it. Show me which Scriptures states that city of Jerusalem is "Babylon the Great." Just one?

Rev. 17 and 18 is describing the Roman Catholic Church.

The entire world will not be deceived by the Antichrist because the antichrist will not be ruling the entire world when he appears. He will only have rule over 10 kingdoms.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, fixerupper said:

Here are a few questions for Lamad,
1. Christ is the ONE opening the seals, why would he be one of the riders? 

2. Christ or the gospel is never associated with a bow which is 'usually' associated with evil.  

3. Christ rides a white horse and wears a diadem. This rider of Rev. 6:2 wears a 'stephanos.' 

4. Why would Christ be the first rider representing the gospel, and the other three bad guys with bad things that follow? We've always depicted the four as, 'riding together' considering them to be confederate.

5. ANY theory that claims these seals opened in the first century, 'before' the prophecies were written', actually makes John a false prophet. I know most people disagree with me but it's the truth!  Jesus was around close to 50-60 years before John wrote this.

WRONG! Christ is NOT one of the riders. The white horse and rider are to represent the CHURCH taking the gospel to the world. The bow without arrows is to represent that fact that the church's weapons are not carnal but are spiritual. But they are mighty, nevertheless.  The church is given a crown.

Sorry, but the four do NOT ride together. Read very carefully the 4th horse and rider. It is written that power is given unto THEM. Read it and find out who the THEM really is. It tells you right in that verse.

No, John is not a false prophet. That is nuts. If you read, you discover that John was suppose to write of things past, things present and things future - and He did. For example, Rev. 12:1-5 is about Christ's birth. It was a "history lesson" for John. those are not my words, they are HIS words.

Perhaps you would like to answer three questions that form the CONTEXT for the seals:

1. Jesus ascended (as you said) long before John saw this vision. There are perhaps a dozen verses telling us that Jesus went to be at the right hand of the Father. Yet, when John looked into the throne room (chapter 4) He saw the Father on the throne but Jesus was NOT THERE. Why?

2. The first search John got to watch for one worthy to break the seals ended in failure, and John wrote, "no man was found." Yet if we read ahead Jesus was found LATER. Why was Jesus not found in that first search John watched that ended in failure?

3. If you notice, the Holy Spirit was there in the throne room in Rev. 4, yet Jesus said that as soon as He went up, He would send the Holy Spirit down. WHY was the Holy Spirit there in chapter 4?

Until you can answer these questions correctly you will never understand this part of John's vision.  These are not my words, they are words Jesus spoke to me.