Bethel Church - A Different Gospel

[seeking the lost]

14 hours ago, Davida said:

If that is all you include that is a really narrow idea of who is included in this that Jesus was speaking of and it is obvious that Jesus was referring to many who would be included in this.   It is obvious that you have a very loose idea as to who are true believers.  People can say that with their mouths but not with their hearts & souls - the Bill Johnson leads a cult and the people at Bethel church are inviting in demonic spirits in their services  & their so called prophets are speaking from them,  not the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit doesn't contradict or change the word of God. There are more who call themselves a part of  Christianity who are not truly saved and this should be a grave concern. 

Jesus said many will say , "Lord, Lord.....and He will say I didn't know you...."

The Pharisees and the teachers of the law accused Jesus of doing things like casting out demons by demons.  You might have the imagination that you would not have been one of them accusing Jesus of such things.  The scribes and Pharisees held the prophets of old in high esteem but were not to kind to the prophets that were in their day.  They thought we are not like our fathers but they were just like them. In Matthew 23 Jesus reveals to them what they are doing.  I will not post the entire chapter here but you should read it .  This passage indicates that they kill the prophets sent to them and they are guilty of the blood of all the prophets being guilty along with their fore fathers.

Matthew 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

By your words You sit in Moses seat.

Matthew 23:2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

I challenge you to produce any proof that Bethel invites demons into their services.

Be careful not to attribute the works of the Holy Spirit to demons. 

[GandalfTheWise]

The Seduction of Christianity (TSOC) and Beyond Seduction...  The books that turned me into a Christian witch hunter and generally naive divisive person for a few years.  Looking for and finding the devil everywhere in various churches.  And their denial was just proof they had things to hide or were so deceived that they needed my enlightening them to save them from the clutches of the evil one.  I saw occult symbols in stained glass church windows (some going back decades), church bulletins, and newsletters.  I saw occult language and concepts in songs, prayers, and sermons.  I could see the devil had infiltrated most churches and was getting his clutches onto many Christians.

One day at church, someone mentioned liking a particular preacher who TSOC had documented their association with new age stuff.  I proceeded to enlighten them as to the dangers of that person.  They were rather patient with me and offered to bring one this person's books next week to read for myself.  I took them up on that offer since TSOC had well documented that person's new age views.  I figured that this would be the perfect way to explain to them what was wrong.   I got the book and found it was one of the main sources of information TSOC had used to show what was up with that person.   I was shocked and shaken to the core as I started reading through this book.  This was decades ago so the details are foggy, but I recall the effect it had on me.  I found that TSOC had cherry picked sentences (and sometimes sections of sentences) out of context and made them say things the author never intended. I cannot recall the detail, but I remember being utterly stunned when I saw TSOC take one quote and explain what the preacher had meant, how it was new age, and how it was anti christian.  In this preacher's book, the very next paragraph after the quotation went into more depth.  He specifically explained what he meant (which was completely in line with accepted Christian belief).  TSOC either did not bother to read that paragraph or chose to ignore it and totally misrepresent this preacher on that point.   This was not an isolated thing.  As I went through that section in TSOC about that preacher, I couldn't believe that the "research" and accusations of TSOC did not hold up.  I later found another book TSOC referenced and found the very same pattern.  It bothered me deeply that I had relied so heavily on a source that had so misrepresented two Christians.  It wasn't like this was a few minor errors or misunderstanding.  It was blatant misrepresentation.  It's one thing to disagree with someone and point out reasons for the disagreement.  It's another to seriously misrepresent what they are saying.  Some of the stuff in TSOC may have been right, but without researching it all myself, I couldn't tell what to trust of what they were saying about other Christians.  

As far as I can tell, TSOC (and its many spiritual descendants and many followers) seem to be sincere and well-meaning.   I fell for the Kool-Aid myself for awhile.  God used a patient brother in Christ to point out the error of this.  Sadly, as I go onto the web sites of the spiritual descendants of TSOC and listen to their devout followers, I see that same pattern of things I saw in TSOC.   The end justifies the means.   Playing loose and fast with facts is fine as long as the noble purpose of purging the church of all new age influence is being pursued.  As long as huge enough pile of facts and accusations are built up, it doesn't matter if some are wrong or misrepresented, it's the size of the pile that matters.  As long as one accusation might be correct, protecting the church is all that counts.

TSOC and Beyond Seduction, along with a few books by cults, are the among the few I've ever tossed in the trash rather than donating or giving away.

I see plenty of problems in Christianity today.  However, books like TSOC and web sites employing similar methodologies in my opinion mostly muddy the water by making it difficult to figure out where fact ends and assumption and innuendo and misrepresentation and attacks based primarily on doctrinal disagreements begin.  One time acts of stupidity and instances of poor judgement (which can afflict pretty much any church, denomination, or individual) become elevated to define people.   Doctrinal disagreements become reasons to assume people are not Christians.  Edited sections of videos and audios have potentially become the cherry picked sentences taken out of context and misrepresented.  As far as I can tell, the pattern of misrepresentation of things I saw in TSOC decades ago seems to be continuing to this day.  Sources that engage in these practices and people who hold these sources as authoritative have little credibility in my eyes.  A willingness to engage in misrepresentation (or to naively trust it) is simply a pattern of untrustworthiness I cannot overlook.  They're perhaps right at times, but I cannot tell when.  Is there a new age encroachment in some Christian circles?  I think so and have seen it.  However, with some sources, it's like the old folk tale of the boy who cried wolf.  It's hard to tell when to believe them that a wolf is really there.  I prefer to seek out sources I can have confidence in or just do research myself.  

[ayin jade]

17 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

The Coptic Church believes Jesus is only a prophet, they do not agree with Biblical Christianity that  confesses Jesus is the Son of God (1 John 4:15, John 6:40, Romans 1:1-5) and God Incarnate (Colossians 2:9, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, John 1:1-17). 

I looked to verify this, as my husband has known copts who do not believe that, and could not find anything to support your claim. That Jesus was only a prophet is islam not coptic. I would appreciate a source for your claim. 

[Neighbor]

Ha, I responded to an old question, didn't realize I was  reading such  an old thread question . So I deleted my response to it.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Neighbor

[Sevenseas]

22 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

That is like LDS, Coptic, JW, and others.

When a denomination confesses Jesus Christ as Son of God and the Savior who is One with the Father and Holy Spirit, they arnt a deception or false christ. 

 

even worse...when a denom...in this case a mashup of word of faith and new apostolic reformation...says they believe in the gospel as presented in the NT and yet dip into every non biblical experience that passes their way while blessing it with the Bill affirmation nod, then they are more dangerous than someone admitting they do not really think Jesus is God

do you know anything whatsoever about Bethel?

the Bible says that even the demons believe but they shudder at that knowledge

 

You believe that God is one. Good for you! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. James 2:19

 

[Fidei Defensor]

30 minutes ago, Sevenseas said:

 

even worse...when a denom...in this case a mashup of word of faith and new apostolic reformation...says they believe in the gospel as presented in the NT and yet dip into every non biblical experience that passes their way while blessing it with the Bill affirmation nod, then they are more dangerous than someone admitting they do not really think Jesus is God

do you know anything whatsoever about Bethel?

the Bible says that even the demons believe but they shudder at that knowledge

 

You believe that God is one. Good for you! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. James 2:19

 

I know very little about Bethel. What I am saying is that devout and goodly Christians may watch Bethel’s broadcasts and think they are safe, and I am saying “let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water.” If Bethel errors, then expose it, but let us remember there are true believers in error and there are those who are real Christians who don’t know about the error and follow the said church or person in ignorance; let’s not condemn them. 

[angels4u]

32 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

I know very little about Bethel. What I am saying is that devout and goodly Christians may watch Bethel’s broadcasts and think they are safe, and I am saying “let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water.” If Bethel errors, then expose it, but let us remember there are true believers in error and there are those who are real Christians who don’t know about the error and follow the said church or person in ignorance; let’s not condemn them. 

Sorry Fidei, I believe you change your mind if you take the time to google Bill Johnson and grave sucking, its a very dangerous deceiving cult, let us know after learning more of who he is if you still think Christians can safely watch or then they should be very concerned about this ministry?

[Fidei Defensor]

7 minutes ago, angels4u said:

Sorry Fidei, I believe you change your mind if you take the time to google Bill Johnson and grave sucking, its a very dangerous deceiving cult, let us know after learning more of who he is if you still think Christians can safely watch or then they should be very concerned about this ministry?

Oh I am just saying let’s be mindful of good Christians who don’t know Bethel’s errors, who tune in to one sermon a week or a month and etc. I am saying let’s not lump those people who tune in occasionally with the disciples of Bethel. 

Edited August 30, 2018 by Fidei Defensor

[Angelfishie]

Bill Johnson responded to this story on a podcast/radio station.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Steve_S
Removed video. Please post videos in the appropriate video forum.

[Sevenseas]

15 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

I know very little about Bethel. What I am saying is that devout and goodly Christians may watch Bethel’s broadcasts and think they are safe, and I am saying “let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water.” If Bethel errors, then expose it, but let us remember there are true believers in error and there are those who are real Christians who don’t know about the error and follow the said church or person in ignorance; let’s not condemn them. 

well, ignorance is not the bliss it's rumored to be

well if you don't know much about Bethel, why semi contradict those who do and tell them 'oh let's not condemn them?'

that sounds an awful lot like religious 'crack' to me

as far as I am concerned, if the baby is a little devil...out it goes LOL!

we do not call people good and 'godly' because of ignorance

 

I find your post kind of double minded