Do you believe in Predestination?

[OneLight]

33 minutes ago, Alive said:

That word 'dragged' in Acts is the same word used in John 'draw'.

It may be the same word, but a different style of application.  Both use the base word DRAW, yet are applied in different ways.

helkuso or heilkusa -To draw toward without necessarily the notion of force as in suro (4951)  See Acts 8:3; 14:19; 17:6; Rev.13:4.  To drag, although it may be just implied (Acts 16:19, of persons, to drag, force before magistrates; 21:30, "out of the temple"; James 2:6)  Helkuo is used by Jesus drawing the souls to Him (John 6:44; 12:32, to draw or to induce to come).  It is the drawing to a certain point as in John 21:6, 11 indicating the drawing of the net while suro (John 21:8) is merely dragging.  To draw a sword (John 18:10)  Taken from The Complete Word Study Dictionary

It depends on how the word is used.  Christ does not drag us to Him, He draws us to Him, as in induces us to come, an invitation.  We either accept the invitation or reject it.

33 minutes ago, Alive said:

*** SNIP ***

May the good Lord take a likin' to ya.

:-)

Is there a reason why you feel the need to say this other than implying He doesn't already? 

[Alive]

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

 

Is there a reason why you feel the need to say this other than implying He doesn't already? 

Oh Lord no. NO, No. It is a term of endearment that myself and folks have used for so many years.

 

[Michael37]

13 hours ago, Sonshine☀️ said:

@Michael37  No, brother; it’s not like that at all.  God knows all souls and He knows the beginning and the end of all things.  What did God tell Jeremiah?  ⁵ Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee …God knew then who would accept Jesus Christ as Savior in this dispensation of time.  So the ones He knew would become His children (saints) because they would accept Jesus, He predestined, but God will always give those who were not predestined free will to choose.  The Gospel is for all.  Those who were not predestined have free will to hear and receive Salvation.  Michael, does this make any sense to you?  What is your understanding of the predestination scriptures in the Bible? 

 

I regularly use a four dimensional framework to describe the interactions between God and man, much as you have it, Sonshine. 

1. Foreknowledge - God always knows everything, if He doesn't then He isn't God.
2. Predestination - God predestines elements of existence, such as the Laws of Nature, the criteria for salvation, and the outcome of Judgment Day.
3. Freewill - God calls everyone to repentance and actively works on our freewill to lead us to repentance from dead works and to faith towards Him.
4. Divine Intervention - God knows those who are His and does whatever He wills to do according to His wisdom, mercy, and grace. 

None of these is mutually exclusive of the others, and in His eternal foreknowledge God is always intimately acquainted with all those who will eventually populate heaven, and has predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son. The point where I part company with so-called Calvinistic predestination is when it claims the only reason people become born-again Bible-believing followers of Christ is because this was forced upon them against their will.  One ridiculous claim of hyper-Calvinists is that a person can jump off a cliff shouting, "Curse God for creating me thus!", and still get to heaven because God has predestined them to.

Being dead in trespasses and sins does not mean an incapacity to hear the word of God, but without it leading us to faith we are actually children of wrath...so much for unchangeable predestination there...while fortuitously the Word of God is living and active, in essence irresistible grace is only irresistible to those who don’t resist it, having no will or desire to resist it as evidence of the Holy Spirit at work in their lives. 

Eph 2:1  And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2  in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
Eph 2:3  among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
Eph 2:4  But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5  even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6  and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7  that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8  For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9  not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Eph 2:10  For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Just like Jeremiah)

Blessings from Michael37.

[OneLight]

3 hours ago, Alive said:

Oh Lord no. NO, No. It is a term of endearment that myself and folks have used for so many years.

 

Never heard of the term before.  Since we live in different necks of the woods, it's understandable.  Thank you for clearing this up.  Shalom!

[Who me]

On 06 August 2019 at 5:04 AM, ilovejcsog said:

Seems to be a really tough question.  So many different opinions.

I am always concerned about those left out without a choice to be Gods.

Lets turn the question round.

Do you believe that God is Just?

If you do why are you querring his Justice?

[ilovejcsog]

Thanks for the informative responses. Different ideas as to the meaning of predestination.  Many facets as Michael points out.

God bless all!

Edited October 9, 2019 by ilovejcsog

[nobleseed]

time and chance happen to all, their is no God controlling what we do.  what u decide to do in a day is completely up to u.  but i do believe in Gods providence, being predestined just means  to be chosen.

[Jo Ash]

On 10/7/2019 at 3:34 PM, OneLight said:

Let's look at scripture to determine what is meant.

Romans 8:28-30

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

1. In verse 29 we read that God "foreknew" - which shows me that He knew before we were born who would accept His salvation, not by reassignment, but by choice - which is Love in the finest
2. Verse 29 also states that those whom He knew would accept His salvation, "He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son".
3. In verse 30 we read the steps He works out in our life:
   1. whom He predestined
      1. He also called
      2. whom He called, these He also justified
      3. whom He justified, these He also glorified
4. All this point to the reasoning behind the promise found in verse 29
   1. And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

Too many people have a false belief that we have absolutely no choice in the matter.  I suggest we do, otherwise, why would God send His Son to pay the price for our sin and then add in conditions found in John 3:16-17?

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

OneLight, this is just great. You answered it brilliantly. God bless you. 

[Willa]

I believe the Scriptures.  

Joh 6:37  All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.  Joh 6:38  For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.  Joh 6:39  And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Joh 6:65  And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

1Pe 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,  1Pe 1:4  to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,  1Pe 1:5  who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 Act 13:48  NKJV  Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

I agree with Miss Muffet that God knows who will choose to believe and calls them, draws them by the power of the Holy Spirit, and appoints all believers to eternal life.  God keeps them by His own power through faith.  Salvation is a gift, unearned and purely by God's grace.  It is God's doing from beginning to end.  

[choir loft]

On 8/6/2019 at 12:04 AM, ilovejcsog said:

Seems to be a really tough question.  So many different opinions.

I am always concerned about those left out without a choice to be Gods.

The answer to the question may be found in THE LAW as given by God to Moses.

John Calvin, who formulated the doctrine of predestination, had no regard for the LAW except his own.   Calvin was an anti-semite who hated anything that smelled of Jew or Jew law.

The same is true for most Protestants today.  

Apart from the LAW there can be no salvation or CHOICE to obtain life or death from God.  Calvin would rob people of that choice by falsely claiming through devious means that only certain people would be saved and certain people would not.

The logical flaw in this is your typical dead baby.

No Calvinist would dare tell the grieving mother of a dead baby that her child is going to hell.   There is no aspect of their logic that permits it.  Instead there is a great deal of obfuscation, smoke and mirrors used to dazzle people into accepting their false thinking.  In the end they don't have a satisfying answer for grieving parents.  The LAW is quite certain and logical, however.

No one can be condemned if they haven't broken the LAW.   Please tell me which dead baby is guilty of stealing, taking the Lord's Name in vain, or murder or adultery?   Which commandment does a dead baby break?  The answer is none and therefore the child is justified as being righteous BY THE LAW.  It has nothing to do with restrictions upon choice and everything to do with obedience to the LAW.

This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live - Deuteronomy 30:19

Because Calvinists are essentially anti-semitic in their doctrine they ignored the LAW and endlessly debate points of theoretical logic - always in their favor by the way.

They seem to have a problem with the Holy Spirit too, but that's another stressful issue on their part.  The Holy Spirit always operates in the region of choice and generous revelation.   

It is time for You to act, O LORD, For they have regarded Your law as void. - Psalms 119:126

that's me, hollering from the choir loft.....

Edited October 20, 2019 by choir loft