Should Christians Obey Torah?

[Wayne222]

3 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

Why do you refuse to answer my simple question......do you not know that your non-reply speaks volumes? By contrast, I will answer anything you got......without hesitation...

Your “ last post” is erroneous as is possible .Read Galations before you put it forward as a debating point. The Legalists Of Paul’s day did not say to do away with Faith in Christ.Belief in Christ was acknowledged as necessary — it just wasn’t sufficient to save— one had to be circumcised and obey the Laws Of Moses to get Saved.They added to the Gospel-they never said to abandon Faith.Its the same old Hog-Wash...... “ Jesus Saves.......BUT!”  

I will inquire one more time.....can one be saved by believing in “ NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD” ? 

Yes the blood justified us. And only the blood. The blood of Jesus the son of God.

[Willa]

1Ti 1:8  But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully,  1Ti 1:9  knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for man slayers,  1Ti 1:10  for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,  1Ti 1:11  according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.

Gal 5:4  You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

God writes the law on our hearts when we are born again.  So no, we don't have to obey the law.  We just want to obey it.  Christ was the fulfillment of the law on our behalf so we are not in bondage to it. 

[Blood Bought 1953]

1 hour ago, Roar said:

Thank you for your reply as it also speaks VOLUMES as to who you are in Christ. However I choose to actually stick to the subject matter and not debate what you want to debate. Feel free to find someone else to debate with as you seem to be spoiling for a fight with someone. I will pray for you. See my reply to Willa for more information. 

 

You answered my question , whether you know it or not......I suspect you know it, that explains the long delay in your answering—- you just could not come up with anything.....I can see why you want to “ bow out”. It must be pure Hell to argue with “ Nothing But The Blood” For Salvation. I thank my God I am on the right side of this debate......don’t forget to remove that song from your Hymnal this coming Sunday.God does  not take kindly to hypocrites singing His inspired songs.You are In my prayers also.I don’t want yours, thanks anyway.....

Edited November 15, 2019 by Blood Bought 1953

[Blood Bought 1953]

1 minute ago, Roar said:

Only you are arguing as I keep telling you we are NOT discussing Salvation you just REFUSE to hear me; so sad. 

I apologized to you for any misunderstanding on my part ......sometimes I get in a hurry and don't read as closely as I should......

Refusing to answer my simple question —- THAT is the only “ sad” thing I see around here.

When I stand before God and He asks me why I should enter His Kingdom I am going to reply....” I have no business entering your Kingdom, except that I believed in Nothing Else But The Blood Of Your Son to make me Justified before You. “NOTHING of myself do I bring, but  to the Cross I cling”. I recommend people come up with their own words that reflect that same sentiment.That way, Jesus gets ALL of the Glory- I get none . Just the Way God wants it. Remember on that Day , you heard it here .......Swallow your Pride.....you got nothing to offer  God other than your wretched sins....

[Steve_S]

BB and Roar removed from thread for getting personal.

[Tzephanyahu]

8 hours ago, johnthebaptist said:

I don't have time to count them. I'm just going by Wikipedia.

Shalom @johnthebaptist

Ah don't worry about that nonsense my friend.   Keep this in mind - Judaism today has it's roots from the Pharisees movement.  The codifying of 613 "commandments" is completely over the top and, in some instances, actually quite silly.  All due respect to the Jews, as I'm sure the motives were initially good and then got perverted enemy intruders - much as Christianity as suffered the same fate.

Following Torah really isn't a scary thing that people think.  It's not just an endless list of "you shall" and "you shall not".  It's more like a river.  It's flowing, dynamic, beautiful and trains us in righteous - according to Paul.

Alas, there is no point going on if you are happy without.  But that's fine man, I don't think it should be a bone of content between us.  We serve the same awesome God, do we not?  Therefore, let's rejoice in that and enjoy Scripture together.  If you want to learn more feel free to ask, but if you don't that's cool too.  Only let's steer clear of those who encourage divisions and sling accusations (on both sides).  It's not the way of Messiah.  We ALL have much to learn and no "wealth of knowledge" to boast about.

Love & Shalom to you friend.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Tzephanyahu

[Tzephanyahu]

5 hours ago, Willa said:

Gal 5:4  You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Shalom @Willa

It's not a great subject to start launching Scriptures with to be honest, as it will just go back and forth forever.

Although, with your post in mind, do you REALLY think we are saying "we are justified by law!" Do you really think that's what we are saying? Really? 

Do you really think that we are saying "Torah obedience is necessary, Grace is not enough!" Do you honestly think we are saying that?

If not, why post such a thing?  Isn't it only going to cause provocation?

I, for one, have never said that or implied.  In fact, you will see in my posts I say the opposite. 

Now, maybe someone else here said that (although I doubt it) but if they did, quote them and ask about it - seeking to understand and correct them gently and in love.  But just posting verses to imply we are suggesting justification by Law?  Hmm, it's not an ideal way to bring peaceful, mature debate. 

Or what then, should I perhaps put words in your mouth and say something provocative such as "You people reckon you can sin as much as you want because you are under grace!"  No, I don't say that.  Because I understand you position, respect it and see it from your point of view clearly.   But even if I didn't understand your position - would the wisest thing for me to do is post something provocative in an already heated thread?  Would that be your advice to another?

I hope you understand where I'm coming from and I don't mean to say anything rude to you sister.  It's just that people need to chill, read each other's words carefully or not at all.  Because nothing is going to make this thread worse than implying people are falling from grace or become estranged from Christ.  That's just not fair. We need peace to discuss this matter, or otherwise there are plenty of other excellent posts to enjoy on here. 

Love & Shalom

[Tzephanyahu]

Ah, just seen @Roar has been removed from this thread.  I fear I'll be on the chopping block soon! Hehe.

It's sad, so sad.  The heart and goal of Torah is love, peace, equality and worship - just like the Gospel.   Yet every time it's discussed, and handful start to take it down a dark path.

Torah isn't a big scary dark void waiting to gobble up good little Christian boys and girls.  But Paul's letters, out of context, can seem to teach against it.  I know, I used to think the same as all of those content without Torah (and I'm not lessening anyone's position).  But context is everything.  

Paul's letters need to be understood in context of the whole Word of God.  Not the whole Word of God understood in the context of Paul's letters.   That would be a misaligned judgment of authority.  The whole Word of God sings one song.  If one part seems to speak against another, we need to search for the harmony.

Alas, maybe this thread will be locked down soon.  As rather than sharing and discussing, tempers have been frayed so quickly yet again.  It's so sad.

Love & Shalom to the peacemakers.

[enoob57]

It is written that the man after God's Own heart gave witness:

Ps 119:97-98

97 O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.

98 Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me.
KJV

Ps 119:113-114

113 I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love.

114 Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.
KJV

Ps 119:165-169

165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

166 LORD, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments.

167 My soul hath kept thy testimonies; and I love them exceedingly.

168 I have kept thy precepts and thy testimonies: for all my ways are before thee.

169 Let my cry come near before thee, O LORD: give me understanding according to thy word.
KJV

Rom 13:10

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
KJV

Of course the born of God love His Law for it testifies of Jesus and the Spirit within bears witness of this to our hearts.... but we do not approach it as able to do perfectly so as to be acceptable to God for God in Christ is the only One Who has perfectly done so! We are fully reliant upon Jesus finished work of the Law to be our finished work therefore we look not to works but Him!

[BibleGuy]

22 hours ago, Behold said:

First of all, lets just call it the 'Old Testament", as this "torah" nomenclature, is needlessly redundant.

The Torah, is just the Old Testament, so, lets try that.

Pick up a KJV, or a NIV< and you have in it the TORAH......Its the OLD TESTAMENT <.

Im sure everyone here knows this..., including you.

And i noticed that you didnt post the verse in an English Format.... that you are confused about, but that's ok.

Here is the reality.   Jesus is not the author of keeping yourself saved by teaching that maintaining the  Old Testament Law,  is part of the Grace Of God.

And regarding the Old Testament looking forward into the New Testament,   Well sure......  The entire bible is God explaining what is coming next, while He is showing you what is going on at the time.

"progressive revelation", is the entire bible.     We are currently in the "time of the Gentile", looking forward into what is coming next.   The Rapture.  That is looking forward into what comes next.. The Great Trib.

God always uses "times and seasons", to bring in the next that HE is going to do.   The entire bible, is God showing us what He did, what He is now doing, and what He is going to do next.

The entire word of GOD, is the Foreknowledge of GOD, laid out as "coming events".

So, sure.... Jeremiah looks into the New Testament, just as Genesis looks into it when it said... "the seed of the woman shall crush Satan's head".   Genesis 3.

YET< non of this is what we are talking about, so lets stay out of the rabbit trail.

We are talking about people that come to Christian forums, with 30 second of Jesus to offer,  combined with 3000 Hrs of the Law to teach.

All Legalists, just like all Mormons, and all JW's, and All Catholics, can talk a good game about Jesus, right until its time to give HIM ALL THE CREDIT DO HIM FOR SAVING US AND KEEPING US SAVED BY HIS BLOOD ATONEMENT, =  AND HIS "GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS".

But once that TRUTH hits a legalist in the face, then all they have to say is.....>"well, obedience, torah, works, commandments, enduring to the end"......as that is THEIR SAVIOR.

BUT ITS NOT MINE.

Its not GOD's.

And, so,  its not the savior of any who are truly born again.

Our Savior is not a DEED that WE DO, or a Law that we Keep, or a fresh copy of the Old Testament... ... our SAVIOR IS THE ONE WHO HUNG, BLED, DIED, ROSE AGAIN, AND MADE US RIGHTEOUS THRU OUR FAITH.  Same as happened to Abraham, in the OLD TESTAMENT.

"JUSTICATION BY FAITH," ALONE, IN JESUS, IS HOW GOD SAVED US.

Its seems to me, and its blinding Logic to realize, that if a person a person is born again, they are going to be talking about JESUS, and not trying to substitute something for him, as you find people doing all over "christian" forums, who rant about the law, and similar...... endlessly.   

 

"First of all, lets just call it the 'Old Testament", as this "torah" nomenclature, is needlessly redundant."

Rather, TORAH is the precise term used by Jeremiah as an ESSENTIAL component of the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33).

And "Old Testament" generally refers to the entire Tanakh....whereas I use "Torah" to generally refer to the written Torah of Moses (i.e., generally Ex. 20 through the end of Deuteronomy).

So I do NOT use TORAH and OLD TESTAMENT synonymously.

I'm not being redundant, but precise.

 

"The Torah, is just the Old Testament, so, lets try that."

Sure, YOU can define TORAH that way, if you like...but that's NOT a very Biblical conception of the term.

The WRITTEN TORAH OF MOSES (as in 1Ki.2:3) is generally more specifically referring to the TORAH written by Moses....(i.e., Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy)....Moses did NOT write the entire Tanakh.

 

"the TORAH......Its the OLD TESTAMENT"

No.  When Abraham obeyed God's TORAHS (Ge.26:5), he was not obeying the entire Old Testament....because most of the Old Testament was not even written yet!

 

"Im sure everyone here knows this..., including you."

Ge. 26:5 clearly disproves your claim that TORAH is identical to OLD TESTAMENT.

 

"And i noticed that you didnt post the verse in an English Format.... that you are confused about, but that's ok."

What verse?  Jer.31:33?

Here's the English: "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

Here's the Hebrew: "כִּי זֹאת הַבְּרִית אֲשֶׁר אֶכְרֹת אֶת־בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל אַחֲרֵי הַיָּמִים הָהֵם נְאֻם־יְהוָה נָתַתִּי אֶת־תֹּֽורָתִי בְּקִרְבָּם וְעַל־לִבָּם אֶכְתֲּבֶנָּה וְהָיִיתִי לָהֶם לֵֽאלֹהִים וְהֵמָּה יִֽהְיוּ־לִי לְעָֽם"

Here's Greek LXX: " ὅτι αὕτη ἡ διαθήκη ἣν διαθήσομαι τῷ οἴκῳ Ισραηλ μετὰ τὰς ἡμέρας ἐκείνας φησὶν κύριος διδοὺς δώσω νόμους μου εἰς τὴν διάνοιαν αὐτῶν καὶ ἐπὶ καρδίας αὐτῶν γράψω αὐτούς καὶ ἔσομαι αὐτοῗς εἰς θεόν καὶ αὐτοὶ ἔσονταί μοι εἰς λαόν"

Here's Hebrews 8:10 "ὅτι αὕτη ἡ διαθήκη ἣν διαθήσομαι τῷ οἴκῳ Ἰσραὴλ μετὰ τὰς ἡμέρας ἐκείνας λέγει κύριος διδοὺς νόμους μου εἰς τὴν διάνοιαν αὐτῶν καὶ ἐπὶ καρδίας αὐτῶν ἐπιγράψω αὐτούς καὶ ἔσομαι αὐτοῖς εἰς θεὸν καὶ αὐτοὶ ἔσονταί μοι εἰς λαόν"

Here's Hebrews 10:16

"αὕτη ἡ διαθήκη ἣν διαθήσομαι πρὸς αὐτοὺς μετὰ τὰς ἡμέρας ἐκείνας λέγει κύριος διδοὺς νόμους μου ἐπὶ καρδίας αὐτῶν καὶ ἐπὶ τὴν διάνοιαν αὐτῶν ἐπιγράψω αὐτούς"

 

Notice that Hebrew "תּוֹרָה" goes into Greek as "νόμος" which goes into English as "LAW"......NOT "Old Testament".

So why do you suppose I'm confused about this translation?

I'm simply backtranslating LAW into the Hebrew as "תּוֹרָה", which is the PRECISE and ACCURATE terminology likewise used in Biblical Scripture.

 

" Jesus is not the author of keeping yourself saved by teaching that maintaining the  Old Testament Law,  is part of the Grace Of God."

So Jesus was just joking about the REALLY BAD consequences of violating Torah? (Mt.5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42)

I'm not sure why you would want to ignore these stark warnings....

 

And GRACE and TORAH go TOGETHER!

Remember?

Grace extends to the HUMBLE (Jas.4:6), and humble people obey TORAH (Ex.33:13;Ps.25:9;Nu.12:3).

Moses finds GRACE in Ex. 33:13...and then Moses responds to that grace by seeking God's WAYS (Ex.33:13)....WHERE are God's WAYS found?  The written Torah of Moses! (1Ki.2:3).

GRACE and TORAH go TOGETHER.

Same grace, then and now.

Same Torah, then and now.

 

"So, sure.... Jeremiah looks into the New Testament"

And Jeremiah affirms that the SAME TORAH OF MOSES passes into the NEW Covenant (see "תּוֹרָה" in Jer.31:33, cited at Heb.8:10 and 10:16).

 

"right until its time to give HIM ALL THE CREDIT DO HIM FOR SAVING US AND KEEPING US SAVED BY HIS BLOOD ATONEMENT, =  AND HIS "GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS"."

Of COURSE Jesus paid the price for us....and we could NEVER pay that price for ourselves...Agreed!

And of COURSE righteousness is a GIFT (Rom.5:17).....

But righteousness is ALSO something we DO (1Jn.2:29;3:7) or else we are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) who will NOT inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20).

So there are TWO components to "δικαιοσύνη" in Scripture....the GIFT....and what we DO.

BOTH are Biblical.

 

""well, obedience, torah, works, commandments, enduring to the end"......as that is THEIR SAVIOR."

Apparently you're worried about how to "keep" salvation?

Just walk with God....it's easy!  RELAX.....

Sure, those who choose to disobey Torah will be cast away (Mt.7:21-23)....so DON'T do that!  No biggie....just grow in OBEDIENCE....

After all, it's GOD who is working in you to grow in obedience to Torah....it's not your own self-efforts apart from Him....

And, Jesus IS the Torah (Jn.1:14)....so of COURSE we are saved as we grow in obedience to Jesus (Torah!)

JESUS is the savior all the while.....don't worry.

 

"its not the savior of any who are truly born again."

JESUS is the savior (Mt.1:21)...and JESUS is the Torah (Jn.1:14)....so there's OBVIOUSLY a connection between Torah and eternal life....just like Jesus said (Lk.10:25-28).

 

"Our Savior is not a DEED that WE DO, or a Law that we Keep, or a fresh copy of the Old Testament... ... our SAVIOR IS THE ONE WHO HUNG, BLED, DIED, ROSE AGAIN, AND MADE US RIGHTEOUS THRU OUR FAITH.  "

Agreed!  And that very Savior requires TORAH (Mt.5:19)...and He shed His blood to inaugurate the New Covenant (Lk.22:20) which is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16) which we should, of course, obey!

After all, FAITH is of TORAH (Mt.23:23)....Jesus was not lying.

 

""JUSTICATION BY FAITH," ALONE, IN JESUS, IS HOW GOD SAVED US."

OOPS!  That's a case of cherry-picking.....

Justification by LAW (Rom.2:13) and FAITH (Rom.5:1) and GRACE (Rom.3:24) in the SPIRIT (1Cor.6:11) and by WORKS (Jas.2:24).

ALL.

TOGETHER.

Not law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

Not faith alone (Jas.2:24).

Not works alone (Eph.2:9).

But ALL (law, faith, grace, spirit, works).

TOGETHER.

We uphold ALL Scripture.....not just the parts we like.....

 

"who rant about the law, and similar...... endlessly.   "

Is Mt. 5:19 just a "rant"?

 

"they are going to be talking about JESUS, and not trying to substitute something for him"

Careful!  Torah does not SUBSTITUTE for Jesus....

Torah IS Jesus!  (Jn.1:14).  

Jesus IS the word of God (Jn.1:14).

And the word of God includes TORAH (Dt.1:3;5:27-33;etc.)

That's why Paul can say Christ was present even with the children of Israel...because they drank of the spiritual CHRIST who is TORAH (1Cor.10:4).

Remember?  Torah is SPIRITUAL (Rom.7:14).

So drink of Christ...the Torah....and walk in eternal life!

He expects you to obey and LIVE (Mt.4:4 citing Dt. 8:3 referring to TORAH).

blessings....

 

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by BibleGuy
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