Does Paul tells us WHEN the rapture will come?

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

It does not matter what I think, only what the scripture says. An assumption I will not make is that when people die in any number it's God's wrath. 

"Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out on the earth the seven bowls of God’s wrath.”"

Specific here. This is not said about seals or trumps ergo, they seals and trumps are not God's wrath.

"...they cursed the name of God, who had authority over these plagues..."

This is not said about the seals or trumps.

6th seal, "...their wrath is come..."

7th trump, "...your wrath is come..."

Wrath does not begin before the 6th seal/7th trump time space moment.

Yes, that is what is written.

The day of their wrath does indeed begin AFTER the 6th seal. The 6th seal is the sign of His coming, not the beginning of wrath; that's the 7th trump.

"The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come." - 7th trump

You saying wrath begins at the 1st trump is outside what scripture says.

Two more? So, three times? Yes, Joel says BEFORE the Day of the Lord. Therefore this fits with with Rev 6 and Matt 24 as the sign of His coming, not the beginning of wrath. 

I know you say things. Can you post scripture that says the signs in Joel happen three times?

Those authors did not START a THEORY, they saw what was written. 

Prove Matt 24 is a second occurrence of the signs...from scripture...not your personal belief. Right now that's all you have is a personal interpretation. If you can post scripture as evidence of two or more happenings of the cosmic signs I'll be convinced.

It does not matter what I think, only what the scripture says.  Sorry, but it DOES matter what you think, for every man THINKS about  what they think the scriptures say. We can know that any or all of the trumpets is God's wrath because they come in the DAY of His wrath.  Rev, 6:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

What did they just experience?

A terrible earthquake

The sun turning dark and the moon turning blood red!

12... there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

They KNEW these scriptures: Joel 2:

³¹ The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Isa. 2:

¹⁰ Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty.

...

¹² For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

...

¹⁷ And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day.

¹⁸ And the idols he shall utterly abolish.

¹⁹ And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

²⁰

²¹ To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

They just lived through the worst earthquake to ever hit earth. They just saw the sun darken and the moon turn into blood. They knew it was the Day of the Lord. WE can know it was the start of the Day of the Lord. 

Just what IS the Day of the Lord? They also knew this verse:

 

Isaiah 13:9

Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

 

Joel 1:15

Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

 

Zephaniah 1:18

Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the Lord's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

 

Zephaniah 2:2

Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the Lord's anger come upon you.

 

Notice the purpose and intent of the Day of the Lord: to make the land desolate, and destroy the sinners out of it. It is a time of destruction. It is a time when God is angry. It is the day of His wrath.

Rev. 8:

⁷ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

⁸ And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

⁹ And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

¹⁰ And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

¹¹ And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

¹² And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. 

What are we reading here? God is beginning a systematic destruction of the earth, and destroying the sinners in the earth. This is exactly what the prophets said the Day of the Lord would be: destruction.  You can argue this till the cows come home, but in the end, this is exactly what they said it was: the Start of the Day of Wrath. Therefore, EVERY trumpet judgment comes with wrath. Then every vial is filled with His wrath. 

Therefore I am going to agree with what is written: the Day of His wrath begins when the earthquake hits, the sun turns dark and the moon turns blood red. And when Paul declared that the "sudden destruction" was indeed the Day of the Lord and the wrath of God.

This is not said about seals or trumps ergo, they seals and trumps are not God's wrath.  I beg to differ: then come INSIDE the Day of the Lord, which is the Day of His wrath, so God IS angry with every trumpet judgment. God begins systematically the destruction of the earth and killing the sinners on the earth - exactly as the prophecies of the Day of the Lord declare. Isaiah 2 and Joel 2 disagree with you.

 

6th seal, "...their wrath is come..."

7th trump, "...your wrath is come..."  This is not true. 

6th seal:

 

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

At the 6th seal they are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb and from the Day of His wrath.

7th trump, "...your wrath is come..."  is a Greek Aorist tense verb that shows no timing.  If it shows any timing in context, it shows wrath is at that point in time, else why mention it. 

Wrath does not begin before the 6th seal/7th trump time space moment.  Sorry, but there will be over 3.5 years between the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet and it is all inside the Day of His wrath. Every trumpet judgment is God destroying the earth and killing the sinners in the earth.

The day of their wrath does indeed begin AFTER the 6th seal. No, they are not angry, they are scared out of their wits because the Day of HIS wrath has begun.

The 6th seal is the sign of His coming, not the beginning of wrath; that's the 7th trump.  Let's see: a great earthquake (Isaiah 2) the sun turns dark and the moon turns blood red (Joel 2): I have to disagree: it is all the signs of the Day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath, not a sign of his coming. But if you said a sign he had come, I would agree. According to Paul, the DAY comes as a thief, because HE comes as a thief - FOR His saints. And Paul then tells us that the rapture will trigger THE DAY. So at the 6th seal, HE CAME, the church was caught up, the earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising happens, and the sun turns dark, and the moon into blood. They NAILED IT! The saw the signs, they knew the scriptures, and they nailed it: the Day of the Lord has begun. I am beginning to think they may well have SEEN the Christ in the air. 

"The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come." - 7th trump Greek Aorist tense: wrath exists with no timing

You saying wrath begins at the 1st trump is outside what scripture says.  No, the truth is, the first trump is INSIDE the day of His wrath.

this fits with with Rev 6 and Matt 24  When you add Matthew 24 with Rev. 6 I know you are miles from truth. These two events will be over 7 years apart.

Can you post scripture that says the signs in Joel happen three times? Sorry, the sign in Joel 2 (sun dark, moon into blood) happen ONCE at the 6th seal as a sign the Day of the LORD is imminent. "Before" can be minutes before or days before. 

Then the sign in Matthew 24, (both the sun and moon darkened [Greek = absence of light]) also written in Joel 3, will happen after the 70th week is over as a sign of Christ's coming for Armageddon. This sign speaks of total darkness. Neither the sun nor the moon can be seen. 

Those authors did not START a THEORY, they saw what was written.   Agreed: they SAW what was written but did not understand it correctly. The signs are DIFFERENT: and come over 7 years apart.

Prove Matt 24 is a second occurrence of the signs...from scripture

Matthew 24: Darkened: Greek skotizō 

1. to cover with darkness, to darken

2. to be covered with darkness, be darkened

of heavenly bodies as deprived of light

Joel 3 Hebrew word qadar  To darken or to be dark

Rev. 6 The sun became black as sackcloth

Joel 2 Hebrew choshek Darkness, night

WHEN does the sun appear black as sackcloth? During a total solar eclipse.

WHEN does the moon appear blood red? During a total lunar eclipse. 

I repeat, these are TWO DIFFERENT signs for two different events. And the signs themselves are different.

Two different Hebrew words, two different Greek words.

Finally, the 6th seal is before the book is opened to reveal the 70th week, but the Matthew 24 sign is after the days of GT are over. In other words, after the week is over. These two signs are divided in TIME by over 7 years so cannot be the same. 

Edited April 5, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

54 minutes ago, The Light said:

This is merely a lack of understanding. Take this example in an attempt to clarify.

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Revclare 6

And I beheld when the farmer opened the 6th gate, there was a great clucking. The farmer grabbed the rooster, threw him over the chopping block, and cut off his head.

Matt 24

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mattclare 24

Immediately after grabbing the ax in those days, the farmer grabbed the rooster, threw him over the chopping block, and the roosters head was on the ground.

You are saying that the moon being as blood in Rev 6 is not the same as the moon not giving light in Matt 24. This is totally incorrect. Let's go with facts and science. The moon goes black in a lunar eclipse. It also turns as the color of blood and is called a blood moon. Both events, the moon being blackened and not giving light, and the moon turning to blood red occur during a lunar eclipse.

In the examples given we see the roosters head being cut off in one example, and the roosters head on the ground in the other example. It is the same event happening even as the moon not  giving light and the moon as blood occurs in the same event. Check science or go watch a lunar eclipse. Both events happen.

The cosmic events in Revelation 6 are the same cosmic events in Matt 24. If you want to understand end times you should start by lining up these two events.

Sorry, it is you trying to make two events into one: they don't fit. Nice try, but no cigar.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

The tribulation is over before wrath begins

Your posts show you have very little to no understanding of the book of Revelation. If I were you, I would throw all your theories on Revelation into the trash and start over. ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation to fit will be proven wrong. 

WHERE in Revelation is there proof that the days of GT have begun; people being beheaded? OF COURSE in chapter 15. Written in black and white. So when JOHN begins the days of GT in ernest in chapter 15, the prewrath theory has it in the seals! (Which John has as church age.)

As I say, you are miles off from the truth. Throw your theories into the trash and start over!

[luigi]

I don't know so much about Paul providing information in regards to when the Lord's people will be spiritually caught up to Christ, but the Lord does inform us in the Olivet's to keep watch for the signs listed in Mark 13, Luke 21, and Matthew 24, as it is at the doors.

Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Mark 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

[The Light]

18 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, it is you trying to make two events into one: they don't fit. Nice try, but no cigar.

Right, so you are saying that during a lunar eclipse that the moon is not both dark and then turned the color of blood? Just get on the internet and watch a video of a lunar eclipse.

Jesus gives the end time events in Matt 24. John completely agrees in Revelation with the things that Jesus says. But no, you can't have an agreement between Jesus and John? Seems quite odd.

[The Light]

25 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Quote

Your posts show you have very little to no understanding of the book of Revelation.

And yet in your futility, you fail to give an answer to my questions? I'll re-post them for you to answer in a minute.

Quote

If I were you, I would throw all your theories on Revelation into the trash and start over. ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation to fit will be proven wrong. 

I am rearranging nothing. I just understand that the vials are just another view of the trumpets.

 

 

[iamlamad]

5 minutes ago, The Light said:

 

Sorry, but 5th graders know the difference between 1/3 and 3/3.

[iamlamad]

22 minutes ago, The Light said:

Right, so you are saying that during a lunar eclipse that the moon is not both dark and then turned the color of blood? Just get on the internet and watch a video of a lunar eclipse.

Jesus gives the end time events in Matt 24. John completely agrees in Revelation with the things that Jesus says. But no, you can't have an agreement between Jesus and John? Seems quite odd.

A blood moon is VISIBLE.  A darkened sun and moon (Greek = absent of light) will be invisible. TWO different signs, for TWO different purposes separated by over 7 years, plus TWO different Greek words and TWO different Hebrew words. It is impossible they are the same. 

OF COURSE there is agreement: but in John's Revelation the coming after the tribulation of those days would be His coming in Rev. 19. Jesus never spoke of His coming FOR His saints at the 6th seal start of the Day of the Lord. The Gentile church of today had not even started then, and would not until God gave Israel TIME to accept Him as their Messiah. They refuses so God put blinders on Israel and turned to the Gentiles. 

There is also agreement between Paul and John. Paul shows His rapture to be the trigger for the Day of the Lord: showing them as back to back events with no time between: one moment it is church age, then POW! The rapture, then the next moment it is the DAy of the Lord. 

Edited April 5, 2020 by iamlamad

[The Light]

38 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Quote

WHERE in Revelation is there proof that the days of GT have begun; people being beheaded? OF COURSE in chapter 15. Written in black and white. So when JOHN begins the days of GT in ernest in chapter 15, the prewrath theory has it in the seals! (Which John has as church age.)

Here is Revelation 15. Can you point out what verses show people being beheaded and the great tribulation occurring?

Rev 15

15 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

³ And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

⁴ Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

⁵ And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

⁶ And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

⁷ And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

⁸ And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Quote

As I say, you are miles off from the truth. Throw your theories into the trash and start over!

If you can give a logical answer to the following questions, I am willing to listen. I'm not talking about something like this: ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation to fit will be proven wrong. You throw this nonsense out there but really have no answers.

1. How do we see the wrath of God coming in Rev 6 and beginning when the 7th seal is open and yet we see wrath also beginning at the end of Rev 14? How could these people be cast into the wrath of God in Rev 14 if the wrath of God is seen coming in Rev 6 and beginning when the 7th seal is opened?

Rev 14

¹⁹ And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

2. In Rev 10 we are told that when the 7th angel begins to sound the mystery of God is finished. We are told in Rev 11 when the 7th angel sounded that the kingdoms of the world are the kingdoms of our Lord. So the question is, how is the mystery of God finished when the 7th angel sounds? Don't the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord when Christ returns?

Rev 10

⁷ But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[The Light]

24 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but 5th graders know the difference between 1/3 and 3/3.

Please post some some scriptures and a little more information so I have a small clue of what you are talking about.