Does Paul tells us WHEN the rapture will come?

[Zemke]

Something that helped put much of these timing issues in perspective, for me and many others I know, is pattern. 

Think of it in more simple terms.

Such as most prophecy concerning the first coming happened in say 35 years.

Most of those, three and a half years. A specific number.

And most of those in the last week. No pattern is exactly the same every time, which is why dispensationalists have a harder time fitting that into their thinking.

But if we look at the repetition of prophecy recognizing pattern we can see how these events in Revelation coexist or are concurrent in some way. It will not be three and a half years of constant hell on earth but a growing pain of one thing after another getting worse with each moment then easing up like birth pangs until the climax. How it will work out, God only knows, but there will be a false peace with the beginning of the ministry of anti-Christ. He will have answers to growing problems in the world and those problems are growing.

A babe can understand these things and we need to be much more simple and clear in our approach. It isn't the one who has everything figured out that will make it thru much deception but the one who loves the truth. Jesus is the truth. 2thess. tells us God will send a delusion upon those who do not love the truth.

And I want to add that a good reason birth pangs are mentioned by Jesus is the pain of child birth brings forth life. And we are heading toward the birth of a new dawn and new life. Life everlasting with a truly righteous King. This is Why Peter called the Day of the Lord that "Great and Glorious Day" in the second chapter of Acts.

Edited April 5, 2020 by Zemke

[iamlamad]

30 minutes ago, The Light said:

Where:

² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Obviously, the DIED because they are seen in heaven with harps. From chapter 20 we know they were beheaded. If the days of GT were in the seals, why on earth are the beheaded only showing up here in chapter 15? Could it be the days of GT (when worshiping the image and accepting the mark is being enforced) have just started? 

[The Light]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Obviously, the DIED because they are seen in heaven with harps. From chapter 20 we know they were beheaded. If the days of GT were in the seals, why on earth are the beheaded only showing up here in chapter 15? Could it be the days of GT (when worshiping the image and accepting the mark is being enforced) have just started?

That's a really great question. The answer is what I have been telling you all along. We see the wrath of God beginning at the 1st trumpet and we see the wrath of God beginning at the 1st vial. The vials are just another view of the trumpets. We see the coming of Jesus at the end of Rev 14 for the gathering from heaven and earth. We see this same coming of Jesus in Rev 6 which is the same coming that we see in Matt 24.

As to your question as why on earth if the great tribulation is in the seals, why are the beheaded only showing up in Rev 15? We also see those that come out of the tribulation in Rev 7.

Rev 7

¹³ And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

¹⁴ And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

As you can see, we see those that come out of the tribulation in Rev 7, come out before the 1st trumpet of Gods wrath sounds. Additionally we see those in Rev 15 are there before the 1st vial of Gods wrath is poured out.

Both cases show the saints come out of tribulation before the wrath of God begins.

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It does not matter what I think, only what the scripture says.  Sorry, but it DOES matter what you think, for every man THINKS about  what they think the scriptures say. 

Maybe for you, not for me. I for one cannot find the authors intent if I am doing more taking than listening.

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This is not said about seals or trumps ergo, they seals and trumps are not God's wrath.  I beg to differ: then come INSIDE the Day of the Lord, which is the Day of His wrath, so God IS angry with every trumpet judgment. God begins systematically the destruction of the earth and killing the sinners on the earth - exactly as the prophecies of the Day of the Lord declare. Isaiah 2 and Joel 2 disagree with you.

You can differ all you like but this is only said about the vials:

"And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: "

Please find where this statement is made about seals or trumps, or anything similar.

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

6th seal, "...their wrath is come..."

7th trump, "...your wrath is come..."  This is not true. 

6th seal:

 

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

At the 6th seal they are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb and from the Day of His wrath.

7th trump, "...your wrath is come..."  is a Greek Aorist tense verb that shows no timing.  If it shows any timing in context, it shows wrath is at that point in time, else why mention it. 

Not true?!? Rev 11:18 clearly says, "...your wrath is come..." How is that not true? 

Stop with the aorist thing as you don't understand it. Aorist verbs carry tense but have no DURATION. One cannot tell from the verb 'how long' either before during or after. I would tell you to examine the usage of 'erchomai' but you'll just ignore it.

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You saying wrath begins at the 1st trump is outside what scripture says.  No, the truth is, the first trump is INSIDE the day of His wrath.

 Wrath only begins at the 7th trump just after the signs of His coming at the 6th seal and it is said wrath is only contained in the vials:

"seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God."

" Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."

"and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory."

" and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath"

The evidence for the vials as the wrath of God and none other literally drowns you in scriptural truth.

You find scripture that explicitly says the seals and trumps are wrath and I'll believe you. Until then this is just your personal story and a chaotic, disjointed mess.

 

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Can you post scripture that says the signs in Joel happen three times? Sorry, the sign in Joel 2 (sun dark, moon into blood) happen ONCE at the 6th seal as a sign the Day of the LORD is imminent. "Before" can be minutes before or days before. 

You said, "They did not understand that there will be TWO MORE times the sun will turn dark. Joel 2 shows us the sun will turn dark and the moon into blood before the Day of the Lord begins. That is the sign for the Day of the Lord. We see that sign at the 6th seal START of the Day of the Lord."

Two 'MORE TIMES'. That's three times. Prove that or desist. I'm beginning to think you cannot remember your own story.

 

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, The Light said:

That's a really great question. The answer is what I have been telling you all along. We see the wrath of God beginning at the 1st trumpet and we see the wrath of God beginning at the 1st vial. The vials are just another view of the trumpets. We see the coming of Jesus at the end of Rev 14 for the gathering from heaven and earth. We see this same coming of Jesus in Rev 6 which is the same coming that we see in Matt 24.

As to your question as why on earth if the great tribulation is in the seals, why are the beheaded only showing up in Rev 15? We also see those that come out of the tribulation in Rev 7.

Rev 7

¹³ And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

¹⁴ And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

As you can see, we see those that come out of the tribulation in Rev 7, come out before the 1st trumpet of Gods wrath sounds. Additionally we see those in Rev 15 are there before the 1st vial of Gods wrath is poured out.

Both cases show the saints come out of tribulation before the wrath of God begins.

I am going to rewrite your sentence so it is truth:

"We see the wrath of God beginning at the 1st trumpet and we see the wrath of God filling the vials.

What you are missing: The seals are there for a purpose: to seal a document, so it can be opened only be a very special person. God's goal is to get to the 7th trumpet so Satan can be kicked off his throne. But to do that, the book must get opened. To get the book opened, the seals - all 7 of them - must be opened first. That is why John did not see any trumpets until the final 7th seal was opened. This is absolute proof that the seals must come first in time, before any trumpet can be sounded. It is why I wrote the axiom: "Any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong." 

Since you insist on rearranging, it is guaranteed: your theory will be proven wrong.  It is the same with the trumpets: no vial will be seen or felt on earth until the 7th and final trumpet has sounded. Sorry, but that is just the way it is. 

I puzzled over the "great tribulation" in chapter 7, bugging God about it a lot. I think I have an answer. John has not yet even started the 70th week, MUCH LESS arrived at the second half of the week where Jesus said the days of GT would begin. So what gives in chapter 7? I am convinced (Actually it was Rosenthal that convinced me!) that this great crowd, too large to number, is the raptured church, raptured just before the earthquake at the 6th seal. The raptured church is going to be by far the largest crowd seen in book of Revelation. But why did God write that they came out of GT?  I am convinced that God is calling the entire church age "great tribulation." There has hardly been a time when somewhere in the world someone is not murdering a Christian just because they love JEsus. For any given martry, it WAS "GT" for them: they could not be killed twice. How could tribulation get any greater for them? 

Then I noticed that God chose those two words, GT, for the church of Thyatira. That was back in 95 AD! Then I notice, those two words, great and tribulation, were NOT ENOUGH for Jesus to describe the days of great pressure the Beast will put on people to worship his image and take his mark: Jesus had to add more words to describe those days.  My conclusion then, is that there are times of great tribulation during the church age, but in the second half of the 70th week, there will be days of great tribulation GREATER than all other times. 

In other words, when we see "great" and "tribulation" together, it does not always point to that period of time in the second half of the week.  In Rev. 7 it is the church seen in heaven, having just been raptured. It will be a long and hard 3 1/2 years before the midpoint of the week. And then some more time for the False Prophet to show up, the image built, and the mark created, before those days of GT Jesus spoke of will begin. 

Therefore, I think the written evidence of straight through, linear chronology far outweighs any other theory. That is why I always disagree with you.

[iamlamad]

35 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Maybe for you, not for me. I for one cannot find the authors intent if I am doing more taking than listening.

You can differ all you like but this is only said about the vials:

"And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: "

Please find where this statement is made about seals or trumps, or anything similar.

Not true?!? Rev 11:18 clearly says, "...your wrath is come..." How is that not true? 

Stop with the aorist thing as you don't understand it. Aorist verbs carry tense but have no DURATION. One cannot tell from the verb 'how long' either before during or after. I would tell you to examine the usage of 'erchomai' but you'll just ignore it.

 Wrath only begins at the 7th trump just after the signs of His coming at the 6th seal and it is said wrath is only contained in the vials:

"seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God."

" Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."

"and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory."

" and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath"

The evidence for the vials as the wrath of God and none other literally drowns you in scriptural truth.

You find scripture that explicitly says the seals and trumps are wrath and I'll believe you. Until then this is just your personal story and a chaotic, disjointed mess.

 

You said, "They did not understand that there will be TWO MORE times the sun will turn dark. Joel 2 shows us the sun will turn dark and the moon into blood before the Day of the Lord begins. That is the sign for the Day of the Lord. We see that sign at the 6th seal START of the Day of the Lord."

Two 'MORE TIMES'. That's three times. Prove that or desist. I'm beginning to think you cannot remember your own story.

Let's look at the entire quote, not just a part of it:  " I studied Rosenthal and Van Kampen - the two men that started that theory, in great detail. Their theory is ERROR in capital letters. In other words, they MISSED it big time. They did not understand that there will be TWO MORE times the sun will turn dark."  I was speaking of Rosenthal and Van Kampen! The "they" in my sentence was referring to these two men indeed, we have not arrived yet at EITHER the 6th seal or the time "after the tribulation of those days." So there will be TWO MORE TIMES in our future (supposing these signs have been seen before in history) the sun will turn dark. So NOT three time, TWO times in our future.  My point, it seems, went right over your head: let me make it perfectly clear: Van Kampen and Rosenthal though, in error, that the signs seen after the tribulation of those days was the same exact sign seen at the 6th seal. They put TWO signs into one. They also put TWO more comings into ONE. Got it?

You must be "grasping at straws:" what does ""And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: " have to do with our discussion? This does not mention wrath. However, it is in one of the vials, so we can know from other scriptures that this plague comes with His wrath. And we can know from the 6th seal that each trumpet comes with His wrath. They are very much a part of the Day of the Lord, where God will destroy the world and the sinners in the world.  It would be much easier on you side here if you just agreed with the scriptures! 

Not true?!? Rev 11:18 clearly says, "...your wrath is come..." How is that not true?  OF COURSE it is true, but you are not understanding the meaning. This phrase does not mean His wrath is STARTING here It means It has ALREADY started in the past. 

Quote: 

"Remember that Greek tenses indicate not only time of action, but more especially kind of action. The aorist tense is a secondary tense, and accordingly, in the indicative mood it indicates past action.   http://www.ntgreek.net/lesson22.htm

End quote

Another quote:  

"What does aorist active indicative mean?

The aorist tense is a secondary tense, and accordingly, in the indicative mood it indicates past action. In other moods, it does not indicate absolute time, and often does not even indicate relative time."

 

It seems then, in the indicative mood, "is come" in the Greek is to indicate a past action.  This idea fits perfectly in that the DAY of wrath began before this, showing us God's wrath began with the first trumpet, not after the 7th trumpet. Therefore I still disagree with you. (Note: I have been mistaken on the different moods of an Aorist verb. In the indicative mood, it represent past action, but in other moods does not reflect any timing.  Quote: In other moods, it does not indicate absolute time, and often does not even indicate relative time.)

 

From the Greek Interlinear:  Also from Hurts parallel Greek, it is the same Greek word in several Greek manuscripts.

2064 [e]
ēlthen
ἦλθεν
came
V-AIA-3S

 

ἦλθεν (ēlthen) — 90 Occurrences in this Active Indicative form:

Translated as: Came, went, is come, but predominately as "came." 

 

Therefore, without a doubt, John is telling us that wrath started sometime previous to this moment in time. I am sticking to what John tells us: wrath will START at the 5th seal and WITH the first trumpet. So in chapter 11, "came" is the right translation.

 

OF COURSE the vials are His wrath. But this IN NO WAY tells us that wrath is not also found in the trumpets. 

[The Light]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Quote

What you are missing: The seals are there for a purpose: to seal a document, so it can be opened only be a very special person. God's goal is to get to the 7th trumpet so Satan can be kicked off his throne. But to do that, the book must get opened. To get the book opened, the seals - all 7 of them - must be opened first.

This is just something you have imagined. If you were correct how is it that we can see what occurs in the 1st seal after it is opened (and all other seals after they are opened) before all seven seals are opened. Please don't dream up some bull about the authors intent, at that very moment, all seals were opened, but we just don't know it. Stay off the imaginary dreams and stick to the facts. The fact is the first seal is opened and we see happens. All other seals are still closed.

Rev 6

1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

² And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Quote

That is why John did not see any trumpets until the final 7th seal was opened.

Ok pardon me. I should have read further. You are already in imagination mode. I would say John did not see the trumpets until the 7th seal was opened, because the 7th seal has to be opened before John could see what happened when the seal is opened.

Quote

This is absolute proof that the seals must come first in time, before any trumpet can be sounded. It is why I wrote the axiom: "Any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong." 

Dude, wake up you are dreaming again. You are the one rearranging things.

The first seal is opened and the things occur that are in the 1st seal.

The second seal is opened and the things occur that are in the 2nd seal.

When the 7th seal is opened then the 7 trumpets can occur.

Quote

Since you insist on rearranging, it is guaranteed: your theory will be proven wrong.  It is the same with the trumpets: no vial will be seen or felt on earth until the 7th and final trumpet has sounded. Sorry, but that is just the way it is. 

LOL, are you really saying that none of the seals or trumpets can occur before the 7th trumpet? Wow, maybe this is a typo. If not, you are the one doing the rearranging. You are so confused that there is little hope. You need to make up another axiom. Here you go: Anyone that imagines things, instead of following scripture will be confused.

Quote

I puzzled over the "great tribulation" in chapter 7, bugging God about it a lot. I think I have an answer. John has not yet even started the 70th week, MUCH LESS arrived at the second half of the week where Jesus said the days of GT would begin

Again, the 1st 5 seals are the tribulation which agrees with what Jesus says in Matt 24. Jesus and John agree. Immediately after the tribulation Jesus comes. We see that in Rev 6, Rev 14, Matt 24

Quote

. So what gives in chapter 7? I am convinced (Actually it was Rosenthal that convinced me!) that this great crowd, too large to number, is the raptured church, raptured just before the earthquake at the 6th seal.

Actually the great multitude is the raptured Church that will be raptured before the seals are opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in and the twelve tribes that are across the earth who are raptured pre wrath (but not the nation of Israel. their blindness is not removed at the coming of Jesus in Matt 24, Rev 6, Rev 14).

Quote

The raptured church is going to be by far the largest crowd seen in book of Revelation.

The raptured Church will not be the largest. The raptured Church is the breba crop of the fig tree. The main harvest will be larger. The fullness of the Gentiles will not be the largest.

Rom 11

¹¹ I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

¹² Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

 

Quote

Then I noticed that God chose those two words, GT, for the church of Thyatira. That was back in 95 AD! Then I notice, those two words, great and tribulation, were NOT ENOUGH for Jesus to describe the days of great pressure the Beast will put on people to worship his image and take his mark: Jesus had to add more words to describe those days.  My conclusion then, is that there are times of great tribulation during the church age, but in the second half of the 70th week, there will be days of great tribulation GREATER than all other times. 

The great tribulation is 45 days long. The period of time of 1290 days after the sacrifice is taken away, and 1335 days when Jesus returns. Look up for your redemption draws nigh.

Quote

In other words, when we see "great" and "tribulation" together, it does not always point to that period of time in the second half of the week.  In Rev. 7 it is the church seen in heaven, having just been raptured. It will be a long and hard 3 1/2 years before the midpoint of the week. And then some more time for the False Prophet to show up, the image built, and the mark created, before those days of GT Jesus spoke of will begin. 

When we see the great multitude in Rev 7 (which includes the Church), the week is over and the time, times and half a time, wrath of God, begins.

Quote

Therefore, I think the written evidence of straight through, linear chronology far outweighs any other theory. That is why I always disagree with you.

It appears to me that your are the one doing the rearranging and following linear chronology because you state that the seals do not occur before the 7th trumpet. How you arrive at this nonsense is complete baffling. I merely understand the difference between Gods wrath and the tribulation.

 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

This is just something you have imagined. If you were correct how is it that we can see what occurs in the 1st seal after it is opened (and all other seals after they are opened) before all seven seals are opened. Please don't dream up some bull about the authors intent, at that very moment, all seals were opened, but we just don't know it. Stay off the imaginary dreams and stick to the facts. The fact is the first seal is opened and we see happens. All other seals are still closed.

Oh My! So you don't know the difference between a vision and reality. Somehow this does not surprise me. 

Look: in 95 AD or so, John was alive and well, and saw a VISION. A vision is not reality, it is a vision. A vision can be the reality of the past, or of the present or of the future. The only way to tell is by the context .

John was called up to heaven. But even that I think was in the vision. Either way, as soon as he was there, he was seeing the throne room: not the REAL throne room, because in the vision Jesus was not seen there. it was a VISION of the throne room. In this vision John saw the Holy Spirit there in the throne room, and saw in the vision a search for one worthy to open the seals, and saw that search FAIL. BY THE CONTEXT we can tell that the timing there was before Jesus rose from the dead. That is why He was NOT found worthy to take the book at that time.

IN THE VISION another search was done and in that search Jesus was found worthy. Why the difference? He had JUST RISEN from the dead to become the redeemer. The timing there is of course right after Jesus rose from the dead.

Next, IN THE VISION, John saw Jesus suddenly appear in the throne room, shortly after rising from the dead. And JOhn saw that immediately the Holy Spirit was sent down. the time there? Of course when Jesus ascended. Circa 32 AD.  (OUT of the vision, in reality, in 95 AD, Jesus is WITH John in heaven. 

Next in the vision, John saw JEsus open the first seal. NOT In reality, in the vision. In Reality, Jesus opened the first seal as soon as He got the book as soon as He ascended, circa 32 AD. WE get to know because Jesus showed it to John in the vision and John wrote it down, around 95 AD.  We get to know the entire 70th week that is future to us because God showed it to John in the vision and John wrote what he saw. 

IN reality, today, 2020, the first 5 seals are opened. The 6th seal is future, but we still know what that 6th seal will be because IN THE VISION John saw it, and wrote of it. 

Your argument fails.

If you knew what was represented by the first seal, perhaps you would know better than to think only the first seal is opened.  Just so you know, the first seal is the CHURCH taking the GOSPEL to the nations. 

Seals 2 through 4 are to represent Satan's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. God limited them (2-4) to 1/4 of the earth. They failed. The gospel is everywhere today.

Are there any martyrs today? The number is probably in the MILLIONS. OF COURSE the 5th seal is opened. 

Your post is a classic of someone who thinks they know, when in fact, they don't.  

Suggestion: try following the script. UNDERSTAND When John did not see Jesus at the right hand of the Father (in the vision.)  UNDERSTAND why the Holy Spirit was still there in the throne room (In the vision) Understand why "no man was found" (in the vision).  UNDERSTAND why in a vision seen in 95 AD John was shown Jesus ascending back into the throne room after being gone around 32 years. 

Edited April 6, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

Ok pardon me. I should have read further. You are already in imagination mode. I would say John did not see the trumpets until the 7th seal was opened, because the 7th seal has to be opened before John could see what happened when the seal is opened.

Finally you are catching on! Now, what was the purpose of those seals? What was it they were sealing? Ah! A book. In reality a scroll. It was designed so as each seal was opened some part of the scroll could be unrolled to read "Seal #1" - but in reality what that seal was to represent. (John did not see anything written. He just saw the events.)  As each seal was opened, there was something that could then take place. But the whole scroll could not be unrolled until all 7 seals are opened. Then, finally, the scroll could be unrolled to reveal the trumpets. 

What? Did you think the seals were all there was to the BOOK?  Well, somehow I am not surprised. There is a BOOK. The purpose of the seals is to prevent anyone from opening the book until or unless someone could be found worthy to take the book. 

What we read next in Revelation, after the 7th seal is opened is what is INSIDE the book. However, you won't believe it until you get there and see the book. 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

Dude, wake up you are dreaming again. You are the one rearranging things.

The first seal is opened and the things occur that are in the 1st seal.

The second seal is opened and the things occur that are in the 2nd seal.

When the 7th seal is opened then the 7 trumpets can occur.

"The vials are just another view of the trumpets. "

  Quote

Since you insist on rearranging, it is guaranteed: your theory will be proven wrong.  It is the same with the trumpets: no vial will be seen or felt on earth until the 7th and final trumpet has sounded. Sorry, but that is just the way it is. 

LOL, are you really saying that none of the seals or trumpets can occur before the 7th trumpet? Wow, maybe this is a typo. If not, you are the one doing the rearranging. You are so confused that there is little hope. You need to make up another axiom. Here you go: Anyone that imagines things, instead of following scripture will be confused.

Exactly! NO trumpet can sound until all 7 seals are opened first. However, I have had people write in these threads something like: "the 7th trumpet sounds at the 6th seal." Since the trumpets are what is written inside the book, and the book cannot be opened until all 7 seals are opened first, such rearranging becomes impossible. You are right, "when the 7th seal is opened THEN the 7 trumpets can occur." Not before.

No, that is not at all what I am saying. You seem to think you can rearrange the vials and trumpets so the first trumpet is sounded with the first vial, the second trumpet with the second vial, etc. (I am guessing.) What I am saying is, that is REARRANGING! The truth is, the trumpets (all but # 7) sound in the first half of the week, and the vials will be poured out some unknown time in the second half of the week.  Therefore the vials cannot possibly be another view of the trumpets. As I wrote before, a 5th grader would have enough reading ability to know that 1/3 of the fresh water turning to blood is not the same thing as ALL (3/3) of the fresh water turning to blood. In other words, the trumpets and vials are DIFFERENT entities and come at different times.  So your argument fails.