A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation

[not an echo]

Hello all,

According to Scripture, when will Christ return for the rapture of His Church?  Varying interpretations of Scripture relating to this question have resulted in various views.  Each view is made up of a virtual forest of interpretations, and everyone has his or her varying reasons for accepting this or that forest as being the better.  Interestingly, four major forests full of interpretations concerning the timing of the rapture have become popular:  the Pre-Trib forest, the Mid-Trib forest, the Post-Trib forest, and the Pre-Wrath forest.  Over time, as in a literal forest, some trees that have been a part of this or that forest have gotten quite huge, while others have fallen, and in some cases, others have been planted which have experienced varying degrees of growth.  Of course, each person considers the forest where he or she dwells to be more full and vibrant, while seeing the others as being more spindly and weak.  Common to us all is the element of faith, because for now, "we see through a glass darkly" (I Cor. 13:12).  

As God's children, we quite naturally should want to dwell in forests of truth.  I know for me, I delight in what I consider to be forests of truth, and I like to share concerning these forests with others.  It looks like this is a common desire with many in God's family!  With a forum, a thread will often concern only one tree in a forest that makes up a view.  And, as we often say in Kentucky, sometimes its hard to see the forest for the trees.  In the course of my experience on Worthy Christian Forums, I have started some threads having to do with the trees (if you will) that are in a different forest that I have had my eyes opened to, a forest that represents a totally different Pre-Trib, or Pre-Daniel's 70th Week rapture view.  Over time, I have sometimes wondered if some will be able to appreciate this different forest at all, until they have seen all of it.  That is what this thread is all about.

The following 36 propositions (trees) are divided into two parts and represent the A,B,C's and 1,2,3's of a different forest that God has drawn my attention to.  PART I concerns things up to and including the time of the rapture.  PART II concerns things after the time of the rapture.  Also, for the purpose of heightening the reader's awareness of the great significance of the Seven Sealed Book (Rev. 5), PART I concerns things up to---and just prior to---the last seal of this book being removed.  PART II continues from there and, for me, further substantiates PART I.

PART I

A.  The Revelation reveals things that were "at hand" to begin to take place, even in John's day.

B.  The Revelation is in chronological order, and chapters 11-20 overlap consistent with this order.

C.  The Revelation is a grid into which all end time prophecies will fit and find their order.

D.  The rapture of the Church is imminent and has been since early in the Church Era.

E.  The rapture will occur pre-The Seven Year Tribulation Period, or pre-Daniel's 70th Week.

F.  The rapture closes the Church Era and will occur right before the Day of the Lord begins.

G.  The word "day" in phrases like "the Day of the Lord" can have a strict or a broad sense meaning.

H.  The book sealed with seven seals could rightly be entitled, THE DAY OF THE LORD.

 I.  The seals of the Seven Sealed Book represent those things leading up to what is within the book.

 J.  The first four seals parallel what Jesus warned of in the opening verses of His Olivet Discourse.

K.  The Olivet Discourse pertains to both Church Era Christians and Last Day's Israelites.

L.  The Lamb opened the first four seals as early as the first century of the Church Era.

M.  The 1st Seal reveals Satan's Church Era scheme to conquer truth by deceivers and false Christs.

N.  The 2nd Seal reveals Satan's Church Era scheme to take away peace and bring about wars.

O.  The 3rd Seal reveals Satan's Church Era scheme to effect poverty for most, but luxury for some.

P.  The 4th Seal reveals Satan's Church Era scheme to martyr Christians, but with a specified limit.

Q.  The "fourth part of the earth" spoken of in Rev. 6:8 is a geographical, not a population reference.

R.  The 5th Seal reveals the cry of Church Era martyrs for justice, nearer the end of the Church Era.

S.  The prophecy quoted by Peter in Acts 2:16-21 points to the Church Era and precisely spans it.

T.  The Second Advent of Christ will be preceded by His Sign Appearance, shown in Matt. 24:30.

U.  The Sign Appearance of Christ will be accompanied by signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars.

V.  The tribulation Jesus spoke of in Matt. 24:29 is in reference to the tribulation of the Church Era.

W.  The Sign Appearance of Christ includes the rapture and occurs after the opening of the 6th Seal.

X.  The 144,000 of Rev. 7:1-8 and those in Israel's hemisphere will see Christ's Sign Appearance.

Y.  The great multitude John beheld in Rev. 7:9-17 is the just resurrected and the raptured Church.

Z.  The "great tribulation" spoken of in Rev. 7:14 is what the Church has so long been through,

     OR,

     The "great tribulation" spoken of in Rev. 7:14 is what the Church will have just escaped from.

 

PART II

 1.  The Day of the Lord will begin the day the 6th and 7th seals of the Seven Sealed Book are opened.

2.  The geographical setting for Daniel's 70th Week will be the same as it was for the first 69 weeks.

3.  The first four trumpets will effect the destruction of the 1/3 of Earth not in Israel's hemisphere.

4.  The Western Hemisphere (the Americas+) represents the 1/3 of Earth not in Israel's hemisphere.

5.  The time elapsing for everything from the 6th Seal through the 4th Trumpet can be one day.

6.  The 5th and 6th trumpets will complete the stage of the Bible lands for Daniel's 70th Week.

7.  The "little book open",  which John gives an account of in Rev. 10:1-11, is the little book of Daniel.

8.  The account of Daniel's 70th Week runs from Rev. 11:1 thru Christ's Second Advent in 19:11-21.

9.  The 7th Trumpet heralds a period that isn't over until Rev. 20:15, after the Last Judgment.

10. The period heralded by the 7th Trumpet results in COMPLETE CLOSURE FOR THIS WORLD.

Realize that as I have likened each of these 36 propositions to a tree, some have many limbs.  In time, as I have time, I plan to start other threads that will go into more detail concerning these propositions.  In the post that follows this one, I plan to keep a running list of these threads.  Hopefully, the threads that I have already started, which stem from the above and are rooted in Scripture, will be able to now be better appreciated.  For me, I believe it is important to humbly confess that I may be wrong on something.  Moreover, because I am a relative unknown, I have experienced no temptation concerning the thing of trying to save face with anyone or any organization.  Rather, if another in the family of God is able to show me where I may be in error, I will be thankful and will gladly do the work necessary to make the foregoing a better forest of truth.  I know that when I am considering what others put forth, I often wonder what they believe concerning other things.  If this is a concern of yours, I would like to invite you to consider my thread, My Testimony and More in the Testimonies section of the forum (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252050-my-testimony-and-more/).  Your brother in Christ, for the cause of Christ---not an echo

I would like to dedicate this opening post of this thread to the Church, "the pillar and ground of the truth" (I Tim. 3:15b), of which I am most grateful to be a part.

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo
added link and clarifications

[not an echo]

The following is a running list of the threads I have started that pertain to my different pre-Daniel's 70th Week rapture interpretation.  Each is listed according to the order in which I started it:

Thread #1---The First Four Trumpets

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249206-the-first-four-trumpets/)

Thread #2---A Title Suggestion for the Seven Sealed Book

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249265-a-title-suggestion-for-the-seven-sealed-book/)

Thread #3---The Chronological Order of The Revelation

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/)

Thread #4---The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250674-the-first-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-white-horse/)

Thread #5---The Second Seal and the Horseman on the Red Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250725-the-second-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-red-horse/)

Thread #6---The Third Seal and the Horseman on the Black Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250748-the-third-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-black-horse/)

Thread #7---The Fourth Seal and the Horseman on the Pale Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250832-the-fourth-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-pale-horse/)

Thread #8---The Fifth Seal and the Cry of the Martyrs

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250955-the-fifth-seal-and-the-cry-of-the-martyrs/)

Thread #9---What "things" were "at hand" to "come to pass" (Rev. 1:1-3)?

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/251166-what-things-were-at-hand-to-come-to-pass-rev-11-3/)

Thread #10---The Two Phases of Christ's Return

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/251412-the-two-phases-of-christs-return/)

Thread #11---The Pre-Trib Rapture and The Day of the Lord

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/251771-the-pre-trib-rapture-and-the-day-of-the-lord/)

Thread #12---The Revelation Is Our God Given Prophetic Grid

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/251871-the-revelation-is-our-god-given-prophetic-grid/)

Thread #13---Rightly Dividing Jesus' Olivet Discourse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252817-rightly-dividing-jesus-olivet-discourse/)

Thread #14---The Imminency of Christ's Sign Return for the Rapture of the Church

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/255168-the-imminency-of-christs-sign-return-for-the-rapture-of-the-church/)

Thread #15---Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet?

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/264038-is-the-trump-of-god-the-seventh-trumpet/)

Thread #16---Tribulation, Great Tribulation, and Daniel's 70th Week

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/269079-tribulation-great-tribulation-and-daniels-70th-week/)

Thread #17---Israel, the Church, and the Parable of the Olive Tree

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/269127-israel-the-church-an-the-parable-of-the-olive-tree/)

Thread #18---When Darkness Will REALLY Be Emboldened

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/269957-when-darkness-will-really-be-emboldened/)

Thread #19---Joel's Prophecies and the Day of the LORD

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/270772-joels-prophecies-and-the-day-of-the-lord/)

Thread #20---The Three Parables Of Matthew 25

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/277622-the-three-parables-of-matthew-25/)

Thread #21---The Event of Christ's Sign Appearance

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/278343-the-event-of-christs-sign-appearance/)

Thread #22---The Tribulation of Matthew 24:29 and Daniel's 70th Week

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/279060-the-tribulation-of-matthew-2429-and-daniels-70th-week/)

Thread #23---The "Great Multitude" and "Great Tribulation" of Revelation 7:9-17

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/279426-the-great-multitude-and-great-tribulation-of-revelation-79-17/)

Thread #24---The Seventh Trumpet and the Period It Heralds

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/285390-the-seventh-trumpet-and-the-period-it-heralds/)

 

More to come as time permits me...

Edited September 10 by not an echo
adding links

[not an echo]

I would like to use this post to show a couple of my charts.  The following is the first chart I ever developed to illustrate the basics of what Scripture supports concerning the timing of the rapture relative to other events.  It is based upon the Seven Sealed Book of The Revelation and is from the perspective of the Cross, the era of the Church, the Day of the Lord, and Eternity:

In harmony with the first three verses of The Revelation, the testimony of history, and more, the first four seals were opened as early as late in the first century.  By this, I mean post-apostolic, in tune with Revelation 1:1-3 coupled with the "hereafter" of 1:19 and 4:1.  As I have shown elsewhere, the first four seals represent the liberties that have been granted to Satan (he would have absolutely none otherwise) to continue the plying of his craft into and throughout the era of the Church.  This means that the activities of Satan, exercised by his henchmen, the four horsemen, have been forces to be reckoned with by the Church since the days of the apostles.  Hence, the first four seals are shown to be open early in the era of the Church.

Like unto a major battle, many in our ranks have suffered and died as martyrs.  At the opening of the 5th Seal, John receives a vision of the cry of these martyrs for justice.  Because their question, "How long?" (Rev. 6:10) reflects that a significant period of time has transpired, and because they are assured that it will be yet "a little season" before their blood is avenged, this fits this seal being opened nearer the end of the era of the Church, closer to the time of the rapture.  As we do not know when the rapture may occur, this seal may already be open as well...and my position at any given time would be that it is.  The martyrs are informed that during the "little season" more will be killed "as they were" (Rev. 6:11).  This is certainly in tune with Daniel's 70th Week (a little season) and what will happen to the two witnesses, the 144,000, and those who refuse allegiance to the Antichrist.

Though we do not know how much longer the era of the Church will continue, we know that it will end with the rapture, which is shown to occur after the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17;  Matt. 24:29-31ff;  I Thess. 4:13-5:11;  II Thess. 2:1).  Therefore, as Christ's coming for the rapture is imminent, so is the Lamb's opening of this seal.  I can almost envision the Lord, upon opening this seal, coming for His Church.  When He does, He will "descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the Trump of God:  and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air."  This will take place "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye."  Concurrent with this, the signs heralding the Day of the Lord will be seen, in accord with Joel's prophecy:  "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible Day of the LORD come" (Joel 2:31).  These signs could be said to occur in the wake of the resurrection and the rapture of the Church.  Note that this is further reinforced by Peter's appeal to this prophecy on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-21).  When Joel's prophecy is understood to also point to the era of the Church, it is remarkable that he prophesied of things that would mark the very day of both the commencement and the conclusion of this era.  Talk about precision---Thank you Joel!  Also, at this same time, the bottom is going to drop out of things in this world, to the tune of the rest of John's account of the 6th Seal and what follows.

It is not until the 7th Seal is opened that the Seven Sealed Book can actually unfold.  Because of the absence of any mention of a time frame, this opening of the 7th Seal can occur the same day that the Church is gathered to glory and the 144,000 Jews are sealed.  After this last seal is opened, John writes, "there was silence in Heaven about the space of half an hour" (Rev. 8:1).  Try to imagine the drama and suspense of this book being now ready to unfold.

It easily fits that everything within the covers of the Seven Sealed Book pertains to the period of the Day of the Lord, hence, THE DAY OF THE LORD would be a fitting title for this book.  On the same day as the rapture---which begins the period of the Day of the Lord---John sees seven angels that are given seven trumpets and what occurs after each trumpet is sounded.  The first six trumpets relate to preparations---a world stage reset, if you will---for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week.  During the time frame of the 6th Trumpet (Rev. 9:13-11:14), after the interlude concerning the "little book open" (the little book of DANIEL/compare Rev. 10:2 with Dan. 12:4, 8-10), we find the first unquestionable evidences of Daniel's 70th Week having actually begun (Rev. 11:2-3).  Also, note especially Revelation 11:1.  Just because "the temple of God" is here spoken of, and "worship" is happening therein, this does not mean that it is God who is being worshiped.  Compare II Thessalonians 2:4.  Finally, the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 11:15-19ff) heralds a period that takes in the remainder of Daniel's 70th Week and continues through the Last Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15).  The highlight of this period will be Christ's Second Advent, the Battle of Armageddon, and Christ's Millennial Reign.  After the Last Judgment, time, as we now know it, will end, and eternity, as we will know it, will begin.  From another angle, the period of the Day of the Lord will bring to an end this world and time as we know it, after which, we will enter eternity.  Revelation 21 begins John's account of that and what it will hold for God's children.

====================

The following is one of my later charts, one I developed after I became a member of the Worthy Christian Forums.  As it is buried here and there in my various threads, I later edited it in here:

While this chart is pretty self-explanatory, there are a couple of things that I would like to point out and comment on.  Note that this chart would also fit the common pre-trib understanding, other than what I have labeled as CHRIST'S SIGN APPEARANCE and STAGE RESET.

Concerning the differences in what is commonly believed and what I label on my chart as CHRIST'S SIGN APPEARANCE, in my previous years of contemplating the common view, I noticed something that needed to be understood just a little differently.  What I am referring to is the common belief that Jesus will return invisibly at the rapture.  It needs to be understood that at the time of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30), Jesus is going to be NOT visible (to some) instead of INvisible.  By this I mean, not visible to anyone outside of Israel's hemisphere.  What I am getting at is easily illustrated by something all of us observe regularly.  Let me explain:

Because the earth is a sphere, the sun is not visible to everyone on the earth simultaneously.  For example, when it is noon in Israel, the sun is not visible to anyone in the United States, however, it is very visible throughout the hemisphere of which Israel is a part---and vice-versa.  So, while the sun is often not visible, it is never invisible.  Of course, THE SON can be invisible if He wants to be!  Or, visible to some while at the same time invisible to others or whatever He wants!  But, a lot of what He wants or intends to do, is revealed in Scripture.  We just have to try to interpret it correctly.

The belief that Christ will return invisibly at the rapture has been based upon His return as a thief.  However, Christ's returning as a thief does not have to mean that His return will be invisible.  No thieves have ever worked invisibly, but most do work in a manner where they won't be seen or where their being seen will be limited.  And, if they are seen or glimpsed, it is often not realized what they have done until it is too late.  This is because they do what they do suddenly and unexpectedly, and then they are gone.  According to what we find in Scripture, such will be the case when Christ makes His Sign Appearance (Matt. 24:42-44;  Lk. 21:34-36;  and I Thess. 5:1-4).  I speak to this more in my thread, The Event of Christ's Sign Appearance (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/278343-the-event-of-christs-sign-appearance/).

Concerning what I label on my chart as the STAGE RESET, if the rapture were to occur today, according to Scripture, Daniel's 70th Week will not begin tomorrow.  However, there is solid evidence that the world's stage will begin to be prepared for it at that time.  The first part of the reset will involve the gathering of the Church.  In other words, as the Church was not a part of the fulfilling of the first 69 weeks of Daniel's prophecy, it will also not be a part of the fulfilling of the 70th Week.  Interestingly, what is in our Western Hemisphere was also not a part of the first 69 weeks, and there is prophetic evidence that it too will not be a part of the 70th Week.  Part of this evidence occurs just after the opening of the 7th Seal with the sounding of the first four (of seven) trumpets and the resultant destruction of one-third of the earth (Rev. 8:7-12).  As I show in my thread concerning The First Four Trumpets (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249206-the-first-four-trumpets/), if the "third part" destruction repeatedly there spoken of is concentrated (rather than cumulative), this could easily be related to our hemisphere, for geographically, our side of the earth represents a "third part" to within less than one percentage point.  This supports that what is in our hemisphere may be taken out of the picture at this time for the purpose of bringing the focus again to bear upon what is in Israel's hemisphere---as in the Bible days.  Interestingly, the sounding of the first four trumpets can scripturally occur later, the same day of the rapture.  Said another way, it looks like God is going to do something staggering on the day of the rapture, for the purpose of resetting the world's stage for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week.  In harmony with this possibility, if the only remaining population of the earth at the end of Daniel's 70th Week is in Israel's hemisphere, this takes the mystery away from how "every eye" shall simultaneously behold Christ (in Person) at His Second Advent.

If the first four trumpets of Revelation chapter 8 result in the destruction of what is in our hemisphere, and trumpets number five and six of chapter 9 result in the completion of the stage for Daniel's 70th Week, this fits that "little book open" in chapter 10 to be the little book of Daniel.  This fit is made all the more apparent by what we discover in chapter 11, as everything John now begins to see relates to Daniel's 70th Week.  This becomes especially evident when the worship occurring in verse one of chapter 11 is understood as being directed toward the Antichrist.  This understanding is supported by Paul's prophecy concerning "that man of sin...the son of perdition;  who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped;  so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (II Thess. 2:3b-4).  Further reinforcing this interpretation are the next two verses (Rev. 11:2-3), which are clearly in reference to two 3-1/2 year periods of time, which equal the seven year period of Daniel's 70th Week.

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo
to reset illustrations

[Diaste]

Looks like it's based in whole on dispensationalism. That isn't a biblical concept. If it was I'm convinced the Gospel would not have been first given by a Jew, to Jews, and which Jews spread it around the world.

If there is such a thing as a 'church' it's Jewish in concept, origin, purpose, revelation, and effect. In other words, "The 'church' doesn't exist if it isn't Jewish."

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, not an echo said:

I would like to dedicate this opening post of this thread to the Church, "the pillar and ground of the truth" (I Tim. 3:15b), of which I am most grateful to be a part

A group made up of mankind is the foundation of the truth?!

Madness. Paul referred to God as the foundation of the truth. To frame the verse in this fashion is a self exalting lie.

"Let God be true and every man a liar."

"The heart is deceitful above all else and desperately wicked."

 

 

[douggg]

21 hours ago, not an echo said:

Because their question, "How long?" (Rev. 6:10) reflects that a significant period of time has transpired, and because they are assured that it will be yet "a little season" before their blood is avenged, this fits this seal being opened nearer the end of the era of the Church, closer to the time of the rapture

In Revelation 7, when John said -

14 And I  [*John] said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he [*the elder] said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

How did the elder know that they had come out of great tribulation?

It is because John and the elder in Revelation 6 both saw the red, the black, and the pale horses riders of the great tribulation.    And they both had seen saw the great tribulation martyrs when the fifth seal was removed.      

*my comment

 

Edited June 7, 2020 by douggg

[not an echo]

On 6/6/2020 at 5:42 AM, Diaste said:

Looks like it's based in whole on dispensationalism. That isn't a biblical concept. If it was I'm convinced the Gospel would not have been first given by a Jew, to Jews, and which Jews spread it around the world.

If there is such a thing as a 'church' it's Jewish in concept, origin, purpose, revelation, and effect. In other words, "The 'church' doesn't exist if it isn't Jewish."

Hello Diaste,

The basic distinctions that I make between the era of the Church and the Israelite Nation are in tune with the basic distinctions that can be made between things relating to the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.  For example, as the Israelite Nation was a focal point of the Old Covenant, the Christian Church is a focal point of the New Covenant, and everything about either stems from God's promise to Abraham to bless all nations through his seed.  In other words, the fulfilling of God's promise to Abraham connects with the establishment of the Nation in the Old Testament days and it continues with the establishment of the Church in these New Testament days.

When Jesus asked the disciples, "But whom say ye that I am?" and Peter answered, "Thou are the Christ, the Son of the living God,"  Jesus told them that "upon this rock I will build My Church;  and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:13-18).  On the Day of Pentecost, 3000 Jews that were not a part of the Church got saved and became a part of it, and from that time all who have been saved (Jew and Gentile alike) have become a part of it.  I count myself (and all who are saved) as being a part of this same Church.

There is coming a day---and it may be today---when Christ will return for His New Testament Church.  Relating to the Israelite nation, there is a 70 Weeks prophecy written of in the book of Daniel (9:24-27), of which 69 Weeks have been fulfilled.  The 70th Week has not been fulfilled.  As the New Testament Church was not a part of the fulfilling of the first 69 Weeks of this prophecy, it will not be a part of the fulfilling of the 70th Week.  The thing of the Church being raptured prior to Daniel's 70th Week is a matter of the fulfilling of Bible prophecy, and has less to do with the nature of the tribulation that will be experienced and more to do with what has been prophesied concerning the Israelite nation.

As I see it---and it seems to me that it is in our face---the seals of the Seven Sealed Book pertain to the era of the Church of which we are a part.  With the opening of the 6th Seal, Christ will return for the Church, as so many prophetic points of convergence indicate.  With the sounding of the trumpets, a world stage reset will be effected for the fulfilling of the final, or 70th Week of Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy.  Midway into the period of the 6th Trumpet (when the stage is fully ready), the little book of Daniel is shown to be open (Rev. 10:2/Dan. 12:4, 8-10), indicating the time when the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week will commence.  Hard evidence for its having commenced is seen with the opening of Revelation 11, very noticeably verses 2-3, and very curiously unnoticed, verse one (compare with II Thess. 2:4).  Just because Revelation 11:1 mentions the "temple of God" and "them that worship therein,"  this does not mean that it is God who is being worshipped.  Rather, I see it as being the Antichrist.  Daniel's 70th Week will continue until the day of Christ's Second Coming and the Battle of Armageddon.

Got to go for now...

[wingnut-]

On 6/5/2020 at 6:47 PM, not an echo said:

So, according to Scripture, when will Christ return for the rapture of His Church?

 

Revelation 16:15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

[not an echo]

On 6/6/2020 at 5:48 AM, Diaste said:

On 6/5/2020 at 5:47 PM, not an echo said:

I would like to dedicate this opening post of this thread to the Church, "the pillar and ground of the truth" (I Tim. 3:15b), of which I am most grateful to be a part

A group made up of mankind is the foundation of the truth?!

Madness. Paul referred to God as the foundation of the truth. To frame the verse in this fashion is a self exalting lie.

"Let God be true and every man a liar."

"The heart is deceitful above all else and desperately wicked."

Hello Diaste (and all),

I must say, I cringed when I saw how that my dedication of this thread "to the Church" might be taken.  To be quite honest Diaste, I don't recall ever having considered I Timothy 3:15 along the line of what you have put forth.  I certainly don't want to "frame" any verse in such a fashion that it becomes "a self exalting lie."

I think of the Church as being that that Jesus said He would build (Matt. 16:13-18), and I am most grateful to be a part of this.  When Paul speaks of the Church as being Christ's Body (Col. 18) and of Christ being the Head of this Body (Eph. 1:22-23), it is easy for me to see the Church as being the subject of his statement, "the pillar and ground of the truth."  I would encourage you to look at this further, and also consider how others in the family of God have taken it.

I know for me, I'm thankful for what I consider to be the true Church.  I am not talking about some denominational or non-denominational body, but the body of true Christians upon the face of the earth, who "speaking the truth in love" have continued to "grow up into Him in all things, which is the Head, even Christ" (Eph. 4:15).  To be sure, some in the body are mature, some are not, some are wayward, and there are tares among the wheat.  But, in accord with Jesus words, the "gates of hell" have not prevailed against it---though the battle has raged.

Because of your concerns, I will here delight in re-framing my dedication in such a way that there might be no mistaking what I mean:  I would like to dedicate the opening post of my thread to "the church of the living God" (I Tim. 3:15b), of which I am most grateful to be a part.

Edited June 16, 2021 by not an echo
add among the wheat

[not an echo]

On 6/6/2020 at 8:27 PM, douggg said:

On 6/5/2020 at 11:08 PM, not an echo said:

Because their question, "How long?" (Rev. 6:10) reflects that a significant period of time has transpired, and because they are assured that it will be yet "a little season" before their blood is avenged, this fits this seal being opened nearer the end of the era of the Church, closer to the time of the rapture

In Revelation 7, when John said -

14 And I  [*John] said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he [*the elder] said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

How did the elder know that they had come out of great tribulation?

It is because John and the elder in Revelation 6 both saw the red, the black, and the pale horses riders of the great tribulation.    And they both had seen saw the great tribulation martyrs when the fifth seal was removed.      

*my comment

Hello douggg,

In my study of the Scripture, I see the great multitude of Revelation 7:9-17 as being the resurrected and the just raptured Church, the elect gathered by the angels during Christ's Sign Appearance (Matt. 24:31 with II Thess. 2:1), of which Revelation 6:12-7:17 is an account.  What John here saw was "a great multitude, which no man could number..." (Rev. 7:9).  On the other hand, there are many evidences that those willing to suffer martyrdom during the time of Daniel's 70th Week will be relatively few, or more like gleanings than like a great harvest.  That time is characterized by worship of the Antichrist and a lack of repentance (e.g., Rev. 13:4-9 and 16:9-11).  Notwithstanding, we do know that some will reject the Antichrist and be martyred.  John sees these in Heaven in Revelation 15:1-4.

Of course, the phrase "great tribulation" (megas thlipsis) has been the subject of much debate.  I see two possibilities here, as I show in my Proposition Z, in my opening post of this thread:

Z.  The "great tribulation" spoken of in Rev. 7:14 is what the Church has so long been through,

     OR,

     The "great tribulation" spoken of in Rev. 7:14 is what the Church will have just escaped from.

Even the early Church was warned to expect much tribulation (e.g., Acts 14:21-22 and I Pet. 4:12-13), and did, and the evidence of history is that such has been the case throughout the era of the Church.  How much more severe would the tribulation have to be in the days that Christians were fed to lions or burned at the stake for such to be regarded as great tribulation?  In our country, the Church may not presently be subjected to such great tribulation (relatively speaking), but such is and has been the case with the Church from a worldwide perspective since the days of the apostles.  Interestingly, Stephen used the words megas thlipsis, translated "great affliction,"  when he described what the land of Egypt and Canaan went through in the days that Joseph was governor of Egypt and his family came to him for corn (Acts 7:11ff).  So, for me, I see a major difference between going through great tribulation and going through Daniel's 70th Week, or the time often referred to as "The Great Tribulation."  So, the great tribulation spoken of in Rev. 7:14 could be what the Church has so long been through.

An alternate possibility (as I see it) is that the great tribulation spoken of in Rev. 7:14 could be what the Church will have just escaped from, if the tribulation here spoken of is Daniel's 70th Week.  In connection with both the rapture and the Day of the Lord (points of convergence with the 6th Seal), Paul speaks concerning our escaping (I Thess. 5:1-11) this time.  To me, the thing of the Church escaping this time has less to do with the nature or intensity of the tribulation and more to do with the fulfilling of what is prophesied concerning the Israelites as a nation (Dan. 9:24-27).

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo