Who is Resurrected, and When?

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, Uriah said:

This is very plain too:

The Mystery of Resurrection

1Cor 15:51 & 52- Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It isn't a martyrs only resurrection. And we know when it happens too. There is no rapture without the resurrection either.

I didn't say it was martyrs only. How could I when it's clear the living are translated as well? 1 Cor 15:51-52 doesn't require a time period either. That scripture speaks to the raising of the dead and the change of both the living and the dead into incorruption. There is no designated period of time from when these dead are raised and both the dead and the living changed into "For the perishable must be clothedf with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality."

If I was to say 1 Cor 15:51-53 occurs at a certain time and applicable to a particular time period, with only 1 Cor 15:51-53 as my evidence, I would be adding what's not there. This isn't where the "Who?" and "When" comes from. 

21 hours ago, Uriah said:

Luke 19:15- And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him

This begins the parable of the talents. After the servants are rewarded, He turns to the others.

v. 19:27- But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

According to the sheep/goats verses it is "when the Son of Man shall come".

Sure. I agree. What is difficult to ascertain here is the timing in relation to other events. We don't have dates, calendars or schedules as direct evidence of the timeline so we have to look to other evidence. 

For instance when Jesus says, "15When he returned from procuring his kingship, he summoned the servants to whom he had given the money, to find out what each one had earned."

When exactly did that occur? When He returned, yes? Was that immediately upon the return? It could be but it's not a requirement as the scripture does not give an exact timeline on this. 

The idea of the 'return'  doesn't last a day or a week. If He was there, then left, then returned the King is in a perpetual state of 'return'. Forever the King has always 'come back', an event memorialized throughout His reign. 

I get that's a bit philosophical but the point is we don't know when the servants were summoned. We only know 'that' they were summoned to judgement when the King returned. To support this idea:

Luke 19:15, "And it came to pass, that when he was returned," KVJ.

'That when he was returned' in Greek is 'en epanerchomai'

En: properly, in (inside, within); (figuratively) "in the realm (sphere) of," as in the condition (state) in which something operates from the inside (within).

Epanerchomai:  I return, come back again.

This return is a state of being, a realm of condition, a sphere of operation, a constant existence and not a one time event where multitudes of events are all happening at once.

21 hours ago, Uriah said:

According to Rev 11:15-And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

v. 18- And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

And it's assured all that will happen. But it's not all happening on the same day at the same moment. As above the return of the Lord is an event at a moment commencing a realm of existence and a condition of influence within a sphere of operation. Not an all encompassing momentary event where every written word concerning all that is to occur takes place at the same moment in time/space.

 

 

21 hours ago, Uriah said:

 

We cannot ignore what Paul said in 1Cor. 15 or the time that is declared in Rev.

This matches perfectly with Rev 6:14-And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

v. 16- And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

They see Him sitting on His throne!!

His judgment won't be dragged out, He looks ready to do so when He comes. And it will not take long:

No one says impending judgement requires dress rehearsals, of course He is ready. Judgement has been ready from the beginning. It's still not clear from this just when in relation to others event it occurs.

It will take a very long time. All the dead are raised and each person is judged case by case, from books, from what is written in books, their name must be found written in another book, the book of Life, a book with an untold number of names written in it. It will take a very long time as mortals count time. 

21 hours ago, Uriah said:

Matt 10:15- Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Matt 11:22- But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you

Matt 11:24- But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee

Matt 12:36-But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

2Peter 2:9-  The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2Peter 3:7- But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

1John 4:17- Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

One gets the idea that Jesus and His apostles believed there is a DAY of judgment!

Are you thinking I'm saying there is no 'day of judgement'?  Of course there is. But 'hémera', sunrise to sunset, can also denote a time period, a reign, or an age as in Matt 23:30, "30And say, If we had been in the days[hémera] of our fathers,"

So sure, it could be a single 24 hour day. But that isn't proven here.

21 hours ago, Uriah said:

By disregarding these things we can certainly create scenarios that are easy to fall into by reading in a strictly linear method in Rev 20. But encompassing the whole of God's word in the matter we avoid the errors it creates.

I'm not disregarding anything. I have answered it all and will continue to do so.

 

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

He is talking to Daniel, and him alone for his benefit.

Daniel 12 4-14.  But you Daniel... Then I Daniel... Go your way, Daniel because...  v.13 As for you (Daniel), go your way till the end. You (Daniel) will rest, then at the end of the days you (Daniel) will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.

The inheritance is a portion of the Land.  The Abrahamic Covenant includes a People (those descendants of Jacob); a Land, the Promise Land. And a Blessing, who/which is Jesus Christ.  We as the Bride have an inheritance which is sealed by the Holy Spirit, not an earthly inheritance.

BTW the people of Daniel are but one seed of Abraham.  Abraham was the father of many nations.  Many seeds.

In Christ

Montana Marv

No. This is a result of replacement theology. The truth is we as Gentiles were grafted into the natural olive tree. We are not apart from that olive tree. If we are, we have nothing. 

You'll realize this one day.

[Montana Marv]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

No. This is a result of replacement theology. The truth is we as Gentiles were grafted into the natural olive tree. We are not apart from that olive tree. If we are, we have nothing. 

You'll realize this one day.

I realize that Daniel was never fully indwelt by the H.S. as the Bride is today.  The Bride is the only group of saints which is fully indwelt the the Holy Spirit.  I am not replacing anything.  We have Pre - flood saints, and Pre - Abrahamic Covenant saints, none of which can be considered any seed of Abraham, yet are of Christ. Sins remove at the Cross.

The Olive tree is Jesus Christ.  We as the Bride are some of the branches, Israel is some of the branches, Pre Abrahamic Covenant saints are another set of branches.  Eternal Life is a result of the Olive Tree (Jesus Christ).

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The bible can not be true unless there is a Pre Trib Rapture. Nothing ese adds up. No use in me wasting time, its like me talking to walls. I can see it easily, you do not want to see it. 

God Bless.

I do not want you wasting your time either.  It is like talking to walls because ALL of us who do not believe HAVE GONE OUT TO PROVE IT and it can't be done.  

ANY BELIEF that makes void the words of God needs to be put away.  Any belief that has God not remaining the same will ALWAYS VOID the words of God.  Any belief not based in GODS truth, in HIS WORDS, IN WHAT IS WRITTEN,  is FALSE.   

PRE TRIB RAPTURE ISN'T WRITTEN.  IT ISN'T SPOKEN OF.  It is surmised.  

I have again and again for someone to PROVE it,  and all I get are the conjectures of  MAN backed by verses THEY SAY say something those verses clearly don't say.  No on any level. Words of man prove NOTHING especially when they make VOID the words of God.  The only way it continues on is EVERY single one who claims its truth WILLINGLY AND without exception, BYPASS everything shown to be false,  and then just continue on like is.  The same questions are always ignored, the same 'conjecture' is always put forth.   The same problems always exist.  For handfuls of barley... 

WHAT are our instructions when we run into such false doctrines?  Here are a few  and the reasons we must fight against false teachings, no matter what the wisdom of man may try to convince us of,  The PRE TRIB RAPTURE THEORY DOCTRINE has been proven to be A FALSE DOCTRINE time and again.  It isn't even written and all it does is cause confusion and call into question everything written about the final generation and has successfully gotten those who don't believe in it, to believe in all the 'left behind' lies.  It has taken what will mostly be a spiritual war for souls (just like when he cast 1/3 to the earth the first time) and made it about flesh wars so no one will even be prepared.   

No one, not even those who claim it's truth, EVER HAVE OR EVER WILL be able to  'PROVE IT' in the WORDS OF GOD.  Never. Does anyone accept that?  No, it's sad to say.   

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.


HOW many times IS IT WRITTEN GOD PROVES HIS PEOPLE?

The rature theory - 

1.  God is coming to take the church to heaven before Satan comes to the earth.  
2. God takes the church because Israel needs to be punished for killing Christ.
3.  The church is made up of Gentiles and not the lost sheep of the house of Israel
4.  When God says He will keep from the hour, He can't do that through His protection on earth but can only accomplish that by removal from the earth.  
5.  When God delivers it is accomplished through removal from the earth. 
6.  There will be mass murders all over the earth

Stopping there for now to see just how well ANY OF THAT SITS WITH WHAT IS WRITTEN

1.  Sit at my right hand till I make thy enemies thy footstool.  
So WHEN does Jesus leave that assigned position to come to the earth and TRANSFIGURE a billion people and take them back to heaven.  
2. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment
3. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 
4.  I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
5. Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Luke 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Luke 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

6.  Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and IN THE POWER OF HIS MIGHT 

Ephesians 6:11 PUT ON THE WHOLE ARMOUR OF GOD THAT YE MAY BE ABLE TO STAND AGAINST THE WILES OF THE DEVIL .

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Ephesians 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Ephesians 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

Ephesians 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

Ephesians 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Ephesians 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

If there was not another word written on the subject, those verses ALONE spell out for us WHETHER 'RAPTURE' is of GODS WILL OR NOT.

NOTICE NOTHING ABOUT A WEDDING GARMENT OR A 'FLIGHT SUIT', BUT ARMOR WHICH IS USED IN WAR.  AND WHAT IS THE WAR?  GOOD VS EVIL AND EVIL DOESN'T END UNTIL CHRIST RETURNS SO THERE MOST CERTAINLY SHOULD BE NO ENDING OF GOOD.  



Does GOD CONSIDER suffering and distress and tribulation BAD for us or does GOD give us the REASONS these things are GOOD FOR US?  

Is dying in the name of GOD GOOD OR BAD?



VERSES THAT SPECIFICALLY NEGATE THE POSSIBILITY OF PRE TRIB


THIS ONE SPOKEN BY JESUS WHO THEY CLAIM COMES TO GET THEM

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

THIS ONE SPEAKS TO WHAT WE WILL SEE 

Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Mark 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

THIS ONE SPEAKS TO WHAT WE WILL HEAR - notice it is written to US TODAY and not to those who will be 'left behind' 

1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

AND BELOW speaks DIRECTLY AGAINST PRE TRIB  -  THOUGH those who do promote it say  it isn't,  yet NEVER ONCE has anyone ever been able to find anything else it could be talking about.  

Ezekiel 13:17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,

Ezekiel 13:18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

Ezekiel 13:19 And WILL YOU POLLUTE ME AMONG MY PEOPLE  for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?

Ezekiel 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

THERE will be no soft and easy escape by 'flying away' for Gods people, no 'rapturing pre trib'.  The teaching that 'the church will be saved' WHILE THOSE LEFT BEHIND WILL BE SLAYED BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T BELIEVE IN THE FLY AWAY DOCTRINE, 

makes GOD REALLY MAD.  It is like wolves hunting to slaughter the sheep.  

Ezekiel 13:21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

I sure wouldn't want them in MY HAND.  I sure wouldn't want my fingers to be typing the words that would lead anyone to believe in it
 

Ezekiel 13:22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

Ezekiel 13:23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

ISN'T THAT THE PRE TRIB RAPTURE THEORY IN A NUT SHELL, THE PROMISING OF LIFE BY RAPTURE TO  'ESCAPE' ALL THE 'GREAT' TRIBULATION AND DEATH AND DESTRUCTION THAT THE RAPTURE THEORY ITSELF SAYS WILL BE TAKING PLACE ON THE EARTH DURING SATANS TRIB?  


The first words of the ministry of Jesus were AND SHOULD BE TAKEN WITH THE HIGHEST REGARD

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said,

It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
 

James 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

James 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

James 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

James 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

James 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

James 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

James 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

James 3:16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

In the end,  it isn't just the FLY out of danger part of the THEORY, but all the PARTIALITY and HYPOCRISY that it requires.  The VARIANCE OF GOD that it requires.  It also has us QUESTIONING verses of the Bible that have no need to be questioned.  We have strife and FOR SURE IT BRINGS ABOUT CONFUSION.  Just like it divides the church for 'rapture' later, it IS NO LESS dividing the church NOW, today and everyday.  


John 6:5 When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat?
John 6:6 And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do.









 

Judges 2:18 And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.

Judges 2:19 And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they returned, and corrupted themselves more than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them, and to bow down unto them; they ceased not from their own doings, nor from their stubborn way.

Judges 2:20 And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and he said, Because that this people hath transgressed my covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto my voice;

Judges 2:21 I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Judges left when he died:

Judges 2:22 That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not.

Judges 2:23 Therefore the LORD left those nations, without driving them out hastily; neither delivered he them into the hand of Judges.

 

Judges 3:1 Now these are the nations which the LORD left, to prove Israel by them, even as many of Israel as had not known all the wars of Canaan;

Judges 3:2 Only that the generations of the children of Israel might know, to teach them war, at the least such as before knew nothing thereof;

Judges 3:3 Namely, five lords of the Philistines, and all the Canaanites, and the Sidonians, and the Hivites that dwelt in mount Lebanon, from mount Baalhermon unto the entering in of Hamath.

Judges 3:4 And they were to prove Israel by them, to know whether they would hearken unto the commandments of the LORD, which he commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses.

Judges 3:5 And the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, Hittites, and Amorites, and Perizzites, and Hivites, and Jebusites:

Judges 3:6 And they took their daughters to be their wives, and gave their daughters to their sons, and served their gods.

Judges 3:7 And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and forgat the LORD their God, and served Baalim and the groves.

Judges 3:8 Therefore the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel, and he sold them into the hand of Chushanrishathaim king of Mesopotamia: and the children of Israel served Chushanrishathaim eight years.

NOTICE WHAT THE NATIONS WERE 



 

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Exodus 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.

Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Exodus 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.

Exodus 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

Exodus 20:20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.

PROVE  

 

[Uriah]

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

I didn't say it was martyrs only.

Right, but the "dead in Christ" rise FIRST as well according to Paul. That's not an ongoing thing. And I stand by the statements in Rev 11 about the time of the dead. 

I, for one am not determined to add things not said in scripture. Plain reading is the rule unless there is some extraordinary reason. Also, I don't doubt that God, who made creation promptly and can make sons of Abraham from stones will have any problem judging humanity in the resurrection when He comes.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Uriah
added a word

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

I realize that Daniel was never fully indwelt by the H.S. as the Bride is today.  The Bride is the only group of saints which is fully indwelt the the Holy Spirit.  I am not replacing anything.  We have Pre - flood saints, and Pre - Abrahamic Covenant saints, none of which can be considered any seed of Abraham, yet are of Christ. Sins remove at the Cross.

The Olive tree is Jesus Christ.  We as the Bride are some of the branches, Israel is some of the branches, Pre Abrahamic Covenant saints are another set of branches.  Eternal Life is a result of the Olive Tree (Jesus Christ).

In Christ

Montana Marv

But there is little doubt Moses and Elijah were clearly indwelt by the Spirit. Many others as well. 

"Cast me not away from Your presence; take not Your Holy Spirit from me." Psalm 51:11

To say the Holy Spirit was not in evidence in the full measure is not borne out by scripture. 

"...none of which can be considered any seed of Abraham, yet are of Christ." you said.

"And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29

Any in Christ are the seed of Abraham. Paul carries more weight than modern theology and false prophets on TV. 

[Montana Marv]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

But there is little doubt Moses and Elijah were clearly indwelt by the Spirit. Many others as well. 

"Cast me not away from Your presence; take not Your Holy Spirit from me." Psalm 51:11

To say the Holy Spirit was not in evidence in the full measure is not borne out by scripture. 

"...none of which can be considered any seed of Abraham, yet are of Christ." you said.

"And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29

Any in Christ are the seed of Abraham. Paul carries more weight than modern theology and false prophets on TV. 

Gal 3:29 is referring to the Bride.  The "you" is the Bride. Present tense.

Many O.T. Prophets were indwelt the the H.S.  Yet none had the experience of Acts 1:8.  Speaking in other languages, evangelizing Jewish people from other nations who came to Jerusalem.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Gal 3:29 is referring to the Bride.  The "you" is the Bride. Present tense.

Many O.T. Prophets were indwelt the the H.S.  Yet none had the experience of Acts 1:8.  Speaking in other languages, evangelizing Jewish people from other nations who came to Jerusalem.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Seed of Abraham. Can't be in Christ without being the seed of Abraham. This is faith and not lineage, for everyone in Christ and for all after the faith of Abraham. There is no church age.

You'll see. 

 

[Montana Marv]

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

Seed of Abraham. Can't be in Christ without being the seed of Abraham. This is faith and not lineage, for everyone in Christ and for all after the faith of Abraham. There is no church age.

You'll see. 

 

If there is no church age then the apostles have no gospel to deliver. The H.S. does not need to indwell anyone.  Christ is a liar.

In Christ 

Montana Marv 

[Retrobyter]

On 6/10/2022 at 12:25 AM, Revelation Man said:

Firstly, NOTHING started with Darby, the Pre Trib Rapture comes from Paul and Jesus. Jesus was called only unto the Jews so he did not spell it out, Paul was calked unto the Gentiles so he spelled it out more or less in a few chapters here and there. It is very easy to understand as long as we now how to interpret those very few bible passages. 

Shalom, Revelation Man.

Well, the POPULARITY of the position did indeed start with Darby. You may not like it, but it's true! And, you WON'T find the teachings of the Pre-Trib Rapture in the Bible, not from Yeshua` and not from Rav Sha`uwl Paulus (Saul surnamed Paul) from Tarsus. One has to READ INTO what they said, putting what they want their words to say into a particular slant.

I've noticed that you use the word "Rapture" when you should be using "Resurection." While there is a "rapture" of sorts in the Resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17), we don't "go to heaven"; we go "THROUGH the heavens" to be with the Messiah wherever He goes. And, where IS He going? He's going to the Middle East to RESCUE His people, and He starts, not at the Mount of Olives, as some believe, but in Bozrah of Edowm! Then, He cleans the enemies out of Yhudah ("Judah") before He comes to Jerusalem. (Zechariah 12:

BUT, He would have just come BACK! Why would He turn around and lead people away from earth for no more than 7 years?! Then, He brings them back again after the 7 years? Why? To protect them from "tribulation?" No, the secret Rapture theory doesn't hold water. God doesn't take us away from trouble; He sees us THROUGH the trouble!

There's too much "globalism" or "universalism" or  whatever one may call it. They think that all these things are going to affect the whole world, when many of them only affect the REGION surrounding the Middle East! Many prophecies are about the LAND of Israel, GOD'S Land, not the whole earth! For as small as out planet is said to be, our earth is MUCH bigger than we think! There are MANY lands with MANY variations of climates and temperature ranges! There are MANY individuals in MANY countries all over the globe!

On 6/10/2022 at 12:25 AM, Revelation Man said:

I understand it, I am correct on this, but in truth it really doesn't matter what men say, God is not relying on our understanding
https://worthychristianforums-h45go6maxh5rpepgu.netdna-ssl.com/uploads/emoticons/default_biggrin.png,
He is going to fulfill His truths as prophesied. It is what it is

Yes, He will, EXACTLY as written, not with all the overblown hype that is often thrown into the works! While I understand your point of view on this, what would be the point of prophecy if He did not intend for us to know what is going to happen, even imperfectly?

On 6/10/2022 at 12:25 AM, Revelation Man said:

Of course there is, its the Rapture and the Time of the Gentiles being fulfilled that ushers in the 70th week.

That is a statement from the Pre-Trib position, but it has not authority from Scripture! It's also circular reasoning: The Rapture and the Time of the Gentiles are beliefs about the Scripture for the Pre-Trib position, but the Pre-Trib position is the basis for the concept of a Rapture and a conclusion of when will be the fulfillment of the Time of the Gentiles! A -> B but B -> A!

On 6/10/2022 at 12:25 AM, Revelation Man said:

If one dissects Matt. 24 correctly they understand that in verses 4-6 Jesus tells the Disciples that the END IS NOT YET, meaning the end of the age, meaning the Kingdom will not be set up in 70 AD when verses 4-6 happen.

Agreed.

On 6/10/2022 at 12:25 AM, Revelation Man said:

But it is by and by, or LATER ON........Then after many verses we are specifically told when that END would indeed come, as soon as the Gospel has been preached unto ALL THE WORLD in verse 14, then the end comes. So, THAT END brings forth the 70th week troubles, there is a Church Age troubles, there is a 70th week troubles AND a 3.5 years of the Greatest Ever Troubles seen by mankind. Jesus does not tell us untruths, he stated ALL TIMES on this earth will be tribulation. 

Just so you know, the phrase "by and by" in the King James Version of the Scriptures means "immediately." Matthew 13:21 and Mark 6:25 are two examples. In Luke 17:7, the Greek adverb translated "by and by" is "Eutheoos," which means "immediately." But, context will tell if it was "immediately" for the disciples to whom He was talking or "immediately for a future generation in THEIR timeframe.

To dissect Matthew 24 correctly, one must differentiate between when He is talking to these disciples on the Mount of Olives that day when He is prophesying, and when He is talking about a more distant future. He says BOTH! In the KJV, when the words "ye," "you," and "your," are used, He is talking DIRECTLY to His students present in front of Him. He is looking right at them and saying, "All of you" or "You all!" In Greek, the pronouns are "humeis," "humas," "humin," and "humoon." These are cases of the second-person, plural pronouns used when He's talking to His students directly. The verbs often end with "-ete" or "-ethe," the second-person, plural ending.

When the pronoun changes or the sentences become more general, He is peering off into the more distant future. He's making the difference between those things His own disciples are going to face in the near future, but He also looks forward to the distant future closer to and including when He comes again! Also, one must not draw conclusions from Matthew 24 and 25 without also consulting Mark 13 and Luke 21 (and Luke 17 to a degree).

On 6/10/2022 at 12:25 AM, Revelation Man said:

SEE BELOW.........so, is Jesus wrong, or is my point spot on? 

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Right word, but still wrong when used as a LABEL! It's the right concept (that debunks a Pre-Trib rapture, by the way), but it's talking about any pressures one may face in the world-system (Greek: kosmoo and kosmon, dative and accusative cases, respectively). If in the world (Greek: en too kosmoo = "in the world-system") you shall always have tribulation (Greek: thlipsis = "pressure"), then how can one be Raptured at this point BEFORE ("PRE-") the tribulation, since it's ALREADY STARTED? The children of Israel, particularly the Jews (the children of Yhudah or Judah), have been undergoing this pressure since the First Century A.D.! Indeed, so have the Messianic believers! So, the ONLY TIME "PRE-trib" was during Yeshua`s ministry during the First Advent!

On 6/10/2022 at 12:25 AM, Revelation Man said:

So, there is just no way you can say the 70th week is not tribulation. I know how to interpret this passage brother, I do not get lost in the shuffle so to speak. God says what He says and I trust it in full without trying to overtly massage it.

Will you keep extending the "tribulation" into the future when the Messiah Yeshua` comes back? Will the New Earth and the New Sky also suffer "tribulation?" There IS a time in the future, perhaps the NEAR future, when the "tribulation" is TURNED OFF! There will be no more "PRESSURE"; one will feel the freedom of LIBERTY!

On 6/10/2022 at 12:25 AM, Revelation Man said:

Yes, I know what Heaven means here, we have a (1st) Heaven (our skies in our Bio Dome). We have a (2nd) Heaven (The universe or where Satan's demons live, on this earth and in the whole universe). And of course we have the (3rd) Heaven where God resides (outside our Universe). Satan goes before the Alar in the 2nd Heaven day and night condemning and accusing us.

This is a flamboyance of what C. I. Scofield taught in his Scofield Reference Bible, written in 1909 and revised in 1917 and 1967. Why do we so often take a NOTE from the Scofield Reference Bible on page 1238 for 2 Corinthians 12:2 and never consider Peter's words in 2 Peter 3:3-13? Scofield simply wrote: "1st heaven, of clouds; 2nd, of stars; 3rd, God's abode." But Peter in summary wrote: "1st heaven, before Flood; 2nd, reserved unto Fire; 3rd, where righteousness dwells." In all three of these cases, Peter's letter, written in Greek, used the word "ouranoi" meaning "SKIES."

Paul had another word he had used before for the place where the sun, moon, and stars exist: epouranios. It means "of- or from-above-the-sky." Why didn't he use it in 2 Corinthians 12 when he had already used it in 1 Corinthians 15?

On 6/10/2022 at 12:25 AM, Revelation Man said:

All of the above informed me of nothing yet.....maybe it is hooked in with below points of emphasis.

The Soul is our Mind, Body and Spirit CONJOINED. We sleep until the Rapture just like the Thief went to a holding place called Paradise the very day he died. NOT HEAVEN. 

I agree; however, the words "Mind" and "Spirit" must be well-defined before it makes any sense.

Furthermore, I KNOW WHERE "paradise" is, because I KNOW WHAT "paradise" is! The Scriptures tell us enough clues that we can piece them together for this information:

First, Yeshua` said in Revelation 2:7,

Revelation 2:7 (KJV)

7 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst (middle) of the paradise of God."

And, second, we see where the tree of life is later:

Revelation 22:1-2 (KJV)

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it (the city, New Jerusalem), and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Third, the definition of "paradise" is ...

3857 παράδεισος paradeisos (par-ad'-i-sos). Of Oriental origin (compare pardeec); a park, i.e. (specially), an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise"):
-- paradise.

This word is found in three places in the New Testament: Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; and Revelation 2:7.

6508 פַרְדֵּס pardeec (par-dace'). Of foreign origin; a park:
-- forest, orchard.

This word is found in three places in the Old Testament: Nehemiah 2:8; Ecclesiates 2:5; and Song of Songs 4:13.

In ALL of these cases, "paradise" is a PARK OF TREES or an ORCHARD, like Gan b`Eeden (the Garden in Eden) was! (Genesis 2:8). And, we find this park will ultimately be in the New Jerusalem, in the median of all the streets of the city! Thus, the street of the city will be more like an INTERSTATE HIGHWAY with a WIDE median between "lanes!" Also, in the middle of the street will flow the River of the Water of Life, with these Trees of Life growing on both banks of the river!

What Yeshua` said to the repentant thief on the cross was NOT that he would actually be there that day; but rather that he would DIE that very day, and the next thing he would know is he would awaken to be with Yeshua` in a park of trees! But, that's too theological to be taught all in one session when they both were in pain and condemned to die before the Passover could begin! So, Yeshua` cut it down to something that could be said in few words:

On 6/10/2022 at 12:25 AM, Revelation Man said:

You are correct, no use mentioning that to a loved one close to death. I see it like you (I think) we will be raised as if it were the next morning, but it will be years later. 

Exactly so.

On 6/10/2022 at 12:25 AM, Revelation Man said:

Glad to heard your dad is a Christian man, no doubt he was an influence on you. We know where he will be, Amen.

Yes, throughout my childhood and into my young adult life, he was the pastor of my church. He even led me to the Lord at the age of 6.

On 6/10/2022 at 12:25 AM, Revelation Man said:

Yes, we will gain new Glorious bodies. This old sin flesh will never come back however. 

Right ... but when we are resurrected as glorious bodies, we will still be flesh and bones as was/is our Lord Yeshua`, just not SINFUL flesh (See Luke 24:39.)

On 6/10/2022 at 12:25 AM, Revelation Man said:

Well I would not say for sure Jeremiah was the first to mention it, but he does mention it. Sometimes we see things in scriptures that are not understood, like the Serpent shall bruise the heel or vice versa, many didn't know that was about Jesus way, way back. I imagine there were other passages that spoke of this coming trouble. But I digress. And, there is no 3.5 years left, there is a coming 7 years left, Jesus died at the END of the 69th week, NOWHERE does it say he died in the middle of the week brother. Sorry, it just is not there. 

I have a blog on this that explains it in full detail. 

Well, Yirmeyahuw ("Jeremiah") DID say it before Daniel 9, because Daniel said he learned that there were 70 years captivity from Yirmeyahuw's writings: (See Daniel 9:2.)

It's actually wrong to phrase the Scripture as "Jesus died at the END of the 69th week." One is not seeing what was indeed said, and one isn't taking into consideration how Hebrew literature is written: The translated Scripture actually says "AFTER" not "AT!" In mathematics, translating real-world problems ("word problems") into mathematical symbols would make this a half-line to the right of the point, not including the point itself, on a timeline. "AT" places it ON the point alone, on a timeline. So, one should say, "Jesus died AFTER the END of the 69th week." And, that would mean ANY TIME AFTER the end of the 69th week!

Think of the things said in the literature as being in an outline. We Western thinkers just read right down the outline. But, Hebrew literature lists the MAIN POINTS first, THEN the author goes back and fills in the details of the minor points. The major point is "the Messiah shall be cut off." The minor points beneath this major point are...

(1) The Messiah shall confirm the Messianic covenant with many for one Week!
(2) In the middle of the Week, the Messiah shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation (gift) to cease. As THE ULTIMATE Sacrifice for sin, no more sacrifices for sin would suffice! It's not that they wouldn't be MADE (they WERE); rather, it is because they no longer appeased YHWH God! They were just USELESS slaughterings.
(3) Because of the overspreading of the abominations of the scribes and Pharisees, listed in Matthew 23, Yeshua` HIMSELF pronounced them "DESOLATE" in Matthew 23:38, and He promised them that they would not see Him any longer (after His death) UNTIL they could say, "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH." "Welcome, Comer in-[the]-name (on-[the]-authority) of-YHWH." (This was prophesied in Psalm 118:26.)

Daniel 9:26-27 (KJV)

26 And AFTER threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people (Roman legions) of the prince (Titus) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (70 A.D.); and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he (the Messiah) shall confirm the (Davidic) covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (the Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (how? by His sacrificial death!), and for the overspreading of abominations he (the Messiah) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation (the end), and that determined (the desolation; the tribulation) shall be poured upon the (ones left) desolate.

On 6/10/2022 at 12:25 AM, Revelation Man said:

Daniel's 70th Week Decree against Israel

In Daniel 9:24, Daniel prophesied that these six things must come to pass before this judgment against Israel would be fulfilled. Some think Jesus fulfilled all of these, most seem to think, as I do, that these things have not come to pass, and when they do that will be the end of the age.

1. Finish the transgression (Israel has never repented as a Nation)

2. Make an end of sins (An end of Willful Sins)

3. To make reconciliation for iniquity (Israel repents at the 1335)

4. Bring in everlasting righteousness (Jesus ushers this in)

5. To seal up vision and prophecy (All prophesy must be fulfilled before the 70th week Prophecy can be completed.)

6. Anoint the most Holy (Jesus will be anointed Lord of lords and King of kings when  he sits on the throne of David.)

I agree with you on all this, for the most part. Note that purpose #6 is the fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant (2 Samuel 7:4-17; 1 Chronicles 17:1-15; Luke 1:30-33).

On 6/10/2022 at 12:25 AM, Revelation Man said:

1. The Hebrew word used for transgression denotes revolt or rebellion. The Jewish people chose to reject God, many chose to stay in Babylon once they were freed. It also denotes their rejection of Jesus Christ. Jesus prophesied in Matthew 23:39 that the Jewish people would not see him again until they have accepted him as their Messiah. Matt. 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. So in order for Jesus to return, Israel has to repent of their rejection of God and Jesus, and Israel will open their hearts to the Messiah, as Paul, Isaiah and Zechariah (Zechariah 12:10, 13:8-9) prophesied, among others.

EXACTLY CORRECT!

On 6/10/2022 at 12:25 AM, Revelation Man said:

2. This is fairly straightforward, willful sins can only end when the millennial reign starts, so by the time this 70 week decree is over, Jesus will have returned to set up his kingdom, ushering in the millennial kingdom where there will be no willful sins, only sins of omission with Satan bound up for 1000 years. Since the 70th week  tribulation is the last week of the 70 weeks decree, that makes perfect sense, as soon as the tribulation period ends, or the “time of Jacob’s trouble”, then “Willful Sins will End”.

Actually, it would be NICE if willful sins would end with His Kingdom, but the truth is that the RESURRECTION will end the willful sins of those who belong to Him, and that Resurrection INCLUDES those of Israel (Ezekiel 37). It will take the full 1,000 years to subdue all of His enemies and put the whole earth in check. (1 Corinthians 15:20-28).

In the meantime, we're already IN the tribulation period! We're already IN the time of Jacob's trouble, which includes the persecutions, the inquisitions, the pogroms, the Holocaust, and the terrorism from their surrounding neighbors. We will continue in these days of tribulation until our Lord's return, as you have admitted in your understanding of John 16:33. The seven years of the final week are not for "tribulation" but are for the offer of the Kingdom to Israel, and for anointing the King. He will first be confirmed as King of the Jews, then anointed as King of Israel, and finally, King of kings as He takes His role as EMPEROR of the world, following in His ancestor David's steps. "King of kings" was a title taken by emperors in the past.

So, how can we be "PRE-" ANY of that?

On 6/10/2022 at 12:25 AM, Revelation Man said:

3. Israel has to be reconciled unto God before the 70 weeks have been fulfilled. There is no doubt that Jesus died for all of our sins, thus the atonement for sins has been made, but there is a conditional requirement for all of us to receive that atonement, we must accept Jesus as our Savior. When Israel accepts the Messiah Jesus, as their Messiah, then the atonement for sins will have been completed, and Israel will have been reconciled unto God, thereby ushering in the millennial kingdom.

4. This 70 week decree has to bring in everlasting righteousness, and we know this can not happen until Jesus sets up his Kingdom. This world has always had willful sin, and always will until Jesus is Lord of lords and King of kings. By the time Daniels prophecy ends, it must usher in everlasting righteousness.

5. Seal up vision and prophecy, the word used here denotes to close up, meaning that before this 70th week can come to an end, all prophecy must be fulfilled or closed up. This will only happen when Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah and he lands on Mt. Zion to rule over this wicked world with a rod of iron.

6. The very last goal that this 70 week prophecy has to usher in is the anointing of the most holy. The bible says most holy, many try to add holy place, but whether it is the temple being anointed, or Jesus Christ as Lord of lord and Kings of kings as I suspect, we know this must happen before the 70 weeks decree is fulfilled. And Jesus must return and rule on this earth during the Kingdom Age. There will be peace on earth, the sheep will lie down with the wolves. Amen.

All six of these things have to happen before this prophecy is fulfilled. These are six spiritual goals that have to come to pass or this prophecy will not be finished or sealed up. We know these things have not come to pass yet, but we also know they are very near to happening, therefore watch, for Israel is now a nation again, and the world is against her, soon she will need her Messiah's help, then she will call upon him, and he will save her from this wicked world. 

We're pretty close to being on the same page, here. One must understand, though, that some of these things will just be starting and will take the full 1,000 years of the beginning of the Messiah's reign to accomplish in full.

On 6/10/2022 at 12:25 AM, Revelation Man said:

-----------------------------------

All of the above however happens after the Rapture of the Church.

Rev. 19 spells it out very clearly brother. We marry Jesus THEN we return with him to earth where the Beast and his minions reside, then Jesus slays them all by the presence of his coming. 

The Marriage SUPPER is Armageddon. Its Metaphoric in Nature. 

THIS is a problem. See, we are "grafted into" the Olive Tree of Yeshua`s Israel! (Romans 11:11-24). We are no longer separated from the Jews within the Messiah! THEIR Messiah first is now OUR Messiah, as well! Consider:

Ephesians 2:11-22 (KJV)

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past (1) Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called (2) the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye (1) were without Christ (without a Messiah), being aliens from the commonwealth (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye (1) who sometimes were far off are made nigh (close) by the blood of Christ (the blood of the Messiah). 14 For he (the Messiah) is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us (1 and 2); 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself (in the Messiah) of twain (two) ONE NEW MAN, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both (1 and 2) unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off (1), and to them that were nigh (2). 18 For through him (the Messiah) we both (1 and 2) have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye (1) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens (1 and 2) with the saints (2), and of the household of God (2); 20 And (1) are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ (Yeshua` the Messiah) himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building (1 and 2) fitly framed together (1 and 2) groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye (1) also are builded together (1 and 2) for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

So, why would HALF of the "one body" - the "ONE NEW MAN" - the "holy temple in the Lord" - the "household of God" - be "raptured to Heaven" while the other HALF will not be?

(1) + (2) = (1 and 2)!

On 6/10/2022 at 12:25 AM, Revelation Man said:

The Rapture and Resurrection happen BEFORE the 70th week.

THIS is the part that can't happen! The seventieth Seven, the "70th week" has ALREADY STARTED with the LEGITIMATE offer of the Kingdom to Israel during the Messiah's First Advent! Yeshua` spent 3.5 years with this generation who would eventually reject Him as their Messiah and crucify Him! This is why Yeshua` told the parable in Matthew 19, right after His visit with Zacchaeus, as He was going up to Jerusalem:

Luke 19:11-27 (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them,

"'Occupy (Trade [with this]) till I come.'

14 "But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying,

"'We will not have this man to reign over us!'

15 "And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying,

"'Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.'

17 "And he said unto him,

"'Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.'

18 "And the second came, saying,

"'Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.'

19 "And he said likewise to him,

"'Be thou also over five cities.'

20 And another came, saying,

"'Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: 21For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.'

22 "And he saith unto him,

"'Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: 23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury (interest)?'

24 "And he said unto them that stood by,

"'Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.'

25 "(And they said unto him,

"'Lord, he HATH ten pounds (already)!') 

26"'For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath (an increase) shall be given (more responsibility); and from him that hath not (an increase), even that (the responsibility) he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and SLAY THEM BEFORE ME!'"

I believe that this is MORE than just a simple parable! Verse 27 reflects back to verse 14! I believe He's telling us that there will be SOME resurrected (like the scribes and Pharisees with whom He had to endure) just so He can have them KILLED AGAIN!

To whom else might this happen? Is this vindication? Perhaps. Is this just? MOST DEFINITELY! IS THIS SATISFYING TO THE MESSIAH? 

On 6/10/2022 at 12:25 AM, Revelation Man said:

Thus those you assume are that Rapture in Rev. 20:4 are I assume raised at the 2nd coming, and Judged as I stated, AFTER those seen in Rev. 7 (Middle of the week....the 1290 to be more precise) 

Well, we're not told ANYWHERE in Scripture that there will be TWO resurrections of the ones justified by God! So why would there be TWO groups, those in the "Pre-trib rapture" and those at the "Second Coming?" We are ONE NEW MAN in the Messiah!

On 6/10/2022 at 12:25 AM, Revelation Man said:

Those seen in Rev. 19 are the Pre Trib Raptured Church, you are conflating the two brother. Here is where you get spun around a wee bit. Rev. 11 (7th Trump......which is the 3rd Woe....which is the 7 Vials) happens at the same time as the 7th Vial as seen in Revelation 16:19, and also at the same time as Revelation 14:1-6 (144,000 Jews who Flee Judea, who are 3-5 million Jews) AND at the same time as Rev. 14:17:20 who are the Wicked who Jesus kills. { Rev. 14:14 is the Pre Trib FLASHBACK, because this is THE HARVEST CHAPTER !! }.......Then finally Rev. 19 covers the exact same timeframe as Rev. 11, 14 and 16. Armageddon ends it all in Rev. 11, 14, 16 and 19. THE SAME TIMELINE. The Same Events. 

Redundant, don't you think? Chapter 19 has NOTHING to do with "the harvest"; it is a CHARGE against the nations who come against Israel! Yeshua` is WINNING BACK HIS Land over which He shall reign! This chapter is NOT the Second Coming!

On 6/10/2022 at 12:25 AM, Revelation Man said:

Seal # 6 only PROPHESIES what the first four Trumps bring via God's Wrath, but that Wrath lasts for exactly 1260 days brother, until the 2nd Coming ENDS ALL OF THESE WONDERS Daniel saw in Dan. 11:36-45. 

The Seals do nothing, except open the book of Judgments. 

Bless you brother, and your dad. 

Nope. The opening of the sixth seal IS the signs in the sun, moon, and stars to which Yeshua` Himself alluded in Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:24-25, and Luke 21:25-26. It's one of the LINKS between the Olivet Discourse and the Revelation, and this occurs "IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days!" Either you have things in the wrong order, OR at least the latter half of the 70th Week is NOT the "Tribulation!"

I picture these events happening because of a large space object, either an asteroid or a meteor obstructing light from the sun and moon at the same time, producing the solar and lunar eclipses at the same time! THIS, I believe, is why these events are said this way. This is an UNPRECEDENTED EVENT, when a solar eclipse happens AT THE SAME TIME as a lunar eclipse! It cannot happen under normal circumstances.

An extra object in the sky can also explain the "stars falling from the sky." The gravitational pulls between the object and earth will cause the earthquake and the object to break up, OR the earth's gravitational pull will snag parts of a comet's tail, the chunks of rock and ice that escape the head of the comet as it skirts its close approach to the sun. Either way, these become the "falling stars" or "meteors" that one occasionally sees falling into the earth's atmosphere, igniting with friction, and either burning up in the atmosphere or falling to the ground where they are considered "meteorites" upon impact. The meteors and meteorites of the sixth seal are herald meteorites. The first five of the trumpet judgments - the judgments with air-raid sirens - are meteorites and their aftereffects.