Who is Resurrected, and When?

[Selah7]

11 minutes ago, Diaste said:

That the 7th trump hasn't sounded. It sounds with the 6th seal.

Diaste, we were discussing immortality, remember?  But if you want to discuss trumpets and seals, we can certainly do that.  Wanna start a thread?

The point of my previous comments has been INCORRUPTIBILITY versus IMMORTALITY and when and to whom these changes occur.

[Uriah]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

It's not the first of all time. 

I'll comment on this soon, don't have time right now.

 

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Totally agree.

With this?....

first in rank, influence, honor; chief; principal: without the article, and absolutely, πρῶτος chief:...... (this section excludes Rev 20:5, 6) 

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

I don't see that with Tabitha or Lazarus. Maybe I'm missing your point. 

I see Jesus as being a person.

 

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Coming out of GT' and 'victorious over the beast' defines 'the dead in Christ'

So the great multitude are all qualified by having died. 

 

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Exactly. The context is crucial.

The context of the dead being resurrected is NOT found ONLY in Rev 20. Why exclude it?

[Retrobyter]

42 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

Thank you for the great study on the soul, Retrobyter.  My intent, though, was to point out something else—the difference between the resurrection of the body (soul) to incorruptibility and the resurrection of the soul to immortality.

1 Cor. 15:53 
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Incorruptibility applies to everyone that dies, both the good and the bad, when we are “raised up” or “changed” from flesh bodies to spiritual bodies; in other words, from corruptible flesh to incorruptible spirit.  

But Immortality applies only to the saints/Elect!  It is a special resurrection to eternal life!  For an eternity!  This is the First Resurrection!

The reason I’m expounding on this topic is because there seems to be much confusion regarding this, and many folks don’t understand why the FIRST Resurrection is called FIRST since there are many resurrections.  

I hope what I’ve written above makes sense.    - Selah 

Shalom, Selah7.

I know that's what you said, but the terminology is wrong because we have the idea of "soul" wrong! It's not anybody-here's fault! It's been slowly developed over hundreds of years!

Technically, there is NO DIFFERENCE between the "resurrection of the body to incorruptibility and the resurrection of the soul to immortality!" They are ONE AND THE SAME RESURRECTION!

What you and @DeighAnn are talking about, is the repurposing of the person in the New Birth, which has NOTHING to do with the physical at all! It is a person's CHANGE of heart, as in REPENTANCE, that has changed! And because one has repented and begins to look at God and His Messiah differently, and because he or she has come humbly to God to do for him or her what would otherwise be impossible humanly to accomplish, it is a CHANGE in destination! He or she is now destined to a DIFFERENT state of existence in eternity!

This actually comes to FRUITION at the person's RESURRECTION - a BODILY Resurrection - which happens when the Lord Yeeshuwa`, God's Messiah, returns! It will be AT THAT TIME that the body is resurrected as a soul - an air-breathing person - once again to both incorruptibility AND immortality!

1 Corinthians 15:53 is not talking about two different things or two different events! It is a COUPLET in Hebrew poetry! They are two phrases saying the SAME THING!

The person who goes into the grave as a body, no longer a "soul" (because he or she is no longer an "air-BREATHING body"), is both mortal and corruptible. He or she has DIED (mortality) and will DECAY in the ground (corruptibility)!

HOWEVER , in the ONE-TIME RESURRECTION OF THOSE WHO ARE HOLY, that one who has been WASHED AND SINGLED OUT FOR GOD'S SERVICE, that one who belongs to the Messiah at His Coming, he or she is RAISED TO NEW LIFE that is both IMMORTAL - NEVER TO DIE AGAIN - AND INCORRUPTIBLE - NEVER TO DECAY AGAIN!

The REAL PROBLEM is that we've got this faulty idea in our minds that we "go to heaven when we die"! We are not built - designed - created - to live someplace off-world! We were made for the earth; and the earth was made for us!

We are not only brought back to life to live incorruptible and immortal, but we are put in an environment that will also be immortal and incorruptible! The earth and its atmosphere will also be remade from the ashes of the Fire! We will live on a NEW Earth with a NEW Sky! One in which rightousness will dwell! One in which there will be no more curse! It will be a New Earth in which God will dwell with His people (not the other way around)! We don't "go to heaven"; we go to a New Earth! In all of the Bible, we are NEVER told that we go to be in some place called "heaven!" We are PROMISED, and TOLD TO ANTICIPATE, the RESURRECTION! We are said to go THROUGH the heavens (the skies) to our first destination in the Middle East to be with our Lord when He returns (because that is where HE is going), but the word "heaven," both the Hebrew word "shaamayim" and the Greek word "ouranos," is a word that means "the SKIES" or "the SKY!" It's JUST AS YEESHUWA` used the word in Matthew 16:1-4!

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"). 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, 'It will be fair weather': for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red. 3 And in the morning, 'It will be foul weather to day': for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: tou ouranou = "of-the sky"); but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas!"

And he left them, and departed.

He didn't give the Pharisees and Sadducees a new sign; He used an OLD sign about the sky with which they were already familiar: "Red sky at night is a sailor's delight; red sky at morning is a sailor's sure warning!"

I hope this helps!

[Diaste]

33 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

Diaste, we were discussing immortality, remember?  But if you want to discuss trumpets and seals, we can certainly do that.  Wanna start a thread?

The point of my previous comments has been INCORRUPTIBILITY versus IMMORTALITY and when and to whom these changes occur.

The sounding of the last trump is tangentially relevant to the discussion of "Who is Resurrected, and When?" 'When' is not only which resurrection but when that particular resurrection occurs in relation to other events.

One of those other events being the 6th seal, 7th trump and, if it's the first or second resurrection.

This thread isn't really about defining whether one is immortal or not and if their resurrection status depends on mortal/immortal or not. 

That is clearly a whole 'nother topic. 

All I want to do is stay on topic. Seems reasonable since I did start the topic. 

[Selah7]

5 minutes ago, Diaste said:

The sounding of the last trump is tangentially relevant to the discussion of "Who is Resurrected, and When?" 'When' is not only which resurrection but when that particular resurrection occurs in relation to other events.

One of those other events being the 6th seal, 7th trump and, if it's the first or second resurrection.

This thread isn't really about defining whether one is immortal or not and if their resurrection status depends on mortal/immortal or not. 

That is clearly a whole 'nother topic. 

All I want to do is stay on topic. Seems reasonable since I did start the topic. 

Okay. 

[Selah7]

 

44 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Selah7.

I know that's what you said, but the terminology is wrong because we have the idea of "soul" wrong! It's not anybody-here's fault! It's been slowly developed over hundreds of years!

Technically, there is NO DIFFERENCE between the "resurrection of the body to incorruptibility and the resurrection of the soul to immortality!" They are ONE AND THE SAME RESURRECTION!

What you and @DeighAnn are talking about, is the repurposing of the person in the New Birth, which has NOTHING to do with the physical at all! It is a person's CHANGE of heart, as in REPENTANCE, that has changed! And because one has repented and begins to look at God and His Messiah differently, and because he or she has come humbly to God to do for him or her what would otherwise be impossible humanly to accomplish, it is a CHANGE in destination! He or she is now destined to a DIFFERENT state of existence in eternity!

This actually comes to FRUITION at the person's RESURRECTION - a BODILY Resurrection - which happens when the Lord Yeeshuwa`, God's Messiah, returns! It will be AT THAT TIME that the body is resurrected as a soul - an air-breathing person - once again to both incorruptibility AND immortality!

1 Corinthians 15:53 is not talking about two different things or two different events! It is a COUPLET in Hebrew poetry! They are two phrases saying the SAME THING!

The person who goes into the grave as a body, no longer a "soul" (because he or she is no longer an "air-BREATHING body"), is both mortal and corruptible. He or she has DIED (mortality) and will DECAY in the ground (corruptibility)!

HOWEVER , in the ONE-TIME RESURRECTION OF THOSE WHO ARE HOLY, that one who has been WASHED AND SINGLED OUT FOR GOD'S SERVICE, that one who belongs to the Messiah at His Coming, he or she is RAISED TO NEW LIFE that is both IMMORTAL - NEVER TO DIE AGAIN - AND INCORRUPTIBLE - NEVER TO DECAY AGAIN!

The REAL PROBLEM is that we've got this faulty idea in our minds that we "go to heaven when we die"! We are not built - designed - created - to live someplace off-world! We were made for the earth; and the earth was made for us!

We are not only brought back to life to live incorruptible and immortal, but we are put in an environment that will also be immortal and incorruptible! The earth and its atmosphere will also be remade from the ashes of the Fire! We will live on a NEW Earth with a NEW Sky! One in which rightousness will dwell! One in which there will be no more curse! It will be a New Earth in which God will dwell with His people (not the other way around)! We don't "go to heaven"; we go to a New Earth! In all of the Bible, we are NEVER told that we go to be in some place called "heaven!" We are PROMISED, and TOLD TO ANTICIPATE, the RESURRECTION! We are said to go THROUGH the heavens (the skies) to our first destination in the Middle East to be with our Lord when He returns (because that is where HE is going), but the word "heaven," both the Hebrew word "shaamayim" and the Greek word "ouranos," is a word that means "the SKIES" or "the SKY!" It's JUST AS YEESHUWA` used the word in Matthew 16:1-4!

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"). 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, 'It will be fair weather': for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red. 3 And in the morning, 'It will be foul weather to day': for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: tou ouranou = "of-the sky"); but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas!"

And he left them, and departed.

He didn't give the Pharisees and Sadducees a new sign; He used an OLD sign about the sky with which they were already familiar: "Red sky at night is a sailor's delight; red sky at morning is a sailor's sure warning!"

I hope this helps!

Incorruption and immortality are not the same.  

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

- 1 Corinthians 15:53 (KJV)

This happens at the same time on the Day of the Lord when Jesus returns, but these are two groups of people.  

Thanks for clarifying what you believe but I guess we just disagree on this point.  

Edited February 5, 2023 by Selah7

[Selah7]

*continued …

So immortality applies only to the overcomers.  See, the incorruptible soul is still mortal and the sting of death is still on it if that soul has not received eternal life. Immortality for the soul in the Millennium age is only for those souls who have already been granted eternal life, and did not worship Satan, and take on his name, and the number of the beast.

[Diaste]

53 minutes ago, Uriah said:

With this?....

first in rank, influence, honor; chief; principal: without the article, and absolutely, πρῶτος chief:...... (this section excludes Rev 20:5, 6) 

No. It's still the first in relation to the set of two resurrections in Rev 20. 

For example:

"πρώτη (prōtē) — 18 Occurrences

Matthew 22:38 Adj-NFS
GRK: μεγάλη καὶ πρώτη ἐντολή
NAS: is the great and foremost commandment.
KJV: This is the first and great
INT: great and first commandment

Matthew 26:17 Adj-DFS
GRK: Τῇ δὲ πρώτῃ τῶν ἀζύμων
NAS: Now on the first [day] of Unleavened
KJV: Now the first [day] of the [feast of] unleavened bread
INT: on the moreover first [day] of the unleavened [bread]

Mark 12:28 Adj-NFS
GRK: ἐστὶν ἐντολὴ πρώτη πάντων
NAS: commandment is the foremost of all?
KJV: Which is the first commandment of all?
INT: is commandment [the] first of all

Mark 12:29 Adj-NFS
GRK: Ἰησοῦς ὅτι Πρώτη ἐστίν Ἄκουε
NAS: answered, The foremost is, 'HEAR,
KJV: him, The first of all the commandments
INT: Jesus the foremost is Hear this O

Mark 14:12 Adj-DFS
GRK: Καὶ τῇ πρώτῃ ἡμέρᾳ τῶν
NAS: On the first day of Unleavened
KJV: And the first day of unleavened bread,
INT: And on the first day

Prote is used as above. It's translated somewhat interchangeably with 1st, chief, principal, foremost, important. What's interesting in the above examples is the 1st is noted as being the first of what follows, like what you pointed out in your response with the definition of 'prōtē, πρώτη ', as in Mark 14.

In Mark 12:28 Jesus answers with the first commandment which isn't the 'first'. It's not even a commandment. 

"I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.”" is the 1st commandment. What Jesus says is not. The BSB relates it as;

Now one of the scribes had come up and heard their debate. Noticing how well Jesus had answered them, he asked Him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?”

29Jesus replied, “This is the most important: ‘Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One. 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.

The first commandment as Jesus relates is the chief idea or concept not the first in order.

This is all to say the idea of the 'prote' resurrection is first with what comes after and it is the most important of all the resurrections before or after. 

The first commandment as Jesus relates is the chief idea or concept of the 1st four commandments. In my mind it can't be defined as the first of all time, mainly because it isn't.

Because of this, this resurrection is only for those so described: the dead in Christ who came out from GT having gotten the victory over the beast. 

And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, beside which stood those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name.

53 minutes ago, Uriah said:

I see Jesus as being a person.

Yeah, me too. But no resurrection occurs without God. Jesus descends then the loud trumpet and the voice of the archangel, and the dead rise. So other than what I responded I don't see your point; there is always God [the other person] involved in a resurrection.

53 minutes ago, Uriah said:

So the great multitude are all qualified by having died. 

No. They just came out from within GT, as it's written:

"“These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Sure some died, but it's prophesied some are taken up alive at the harpazo.

53 minutes ago, Uriah said:

 

The context of the dead being resurrected is NOT found ONLY in Rev 20. Why exclude it?

I'm not. I'm trying to understand how the 'dead in Christ' aligns with 'out from within GT' and with, ' beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands.' and these are described as coming "to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.", when contemporary teaching tells us all the dead in Christ from all time rule and reign with Jesus for 1000 years.

According to Rev 20 that isn't the way it is. So then, What to do with that?

Is it 'all from all time' and just ignore Rev 2o? Or is it Rev 20 defines who the 'dead in Christ' are as relates to the 1st resurrection? The Rev 20 resurrected are the only ones in the prote resurrection according to Rev 20,so this is not all the dead in Christ from all time.

Or do I think that the Rev 20 people are a segregated class of 'all from all time' and only they reign with Jesus and the rest just do...what? 

As before, the ones in the 2nd resurrection cannot only be from the 1000 year reign of Christ since it's said 'the rest of the dead lived not again until after the 1000 years'. That means the dead that lived not again were from previous to the 1st resurrection, pre 2nd advent. 

It's also not true the 2nd resurrection is only of the unsaved or spiritually dead, or predestined to the lake of fire. It's a deeds based judgement just like Matt 25:31-46 depicts.

[Sister]

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The first resurrection is for all believers.  1 Cor 15:23 -  But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Hi FreeGrace

1 Corinthians 15:23   But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Yes everyone in his own order.  The firstfruits are the 144K.  They will be raised first, then 'afterward' they that are Christ's at his coming.

Who are the firstfruits?  Those who followed the Lamb wheresoever he goes.  The Lamb has to come first before he can be followed.  He came with the new testament.

 

Quote

Obviously, EVERY believer "belongs to Him" and this verse says plainly that all believers will be resurrected "when He comes" a direct reference to the Second Advent.

Yes, all believers who follow Christ belong to him.  The loyal servants of God in the OT did not know Christ.  They didn't even know his name, but they knew there was someone to come, their Messiah, because he was prophesied about.  Their places in the kingdom are secured.  God has a job for them during the millennium.  They will be the judges and counsellors, brought back in their flesh to organize Israel under Christ..They will die again, but in the 2nd resurrection they will be raised spirit.

Luke 10:24   For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
 

Quote

Then, in Rev 20:4-6 we read about trib martyrs being resurrected in the FIRST resurrection.  Confirmation of 1 Cor 15:23.

Not sure what this has to do with the OT saints?  These are all the NT saints who followed Christ.

Quote

Rev 20 is a good summary of God's plan "to the very end".

Indeed it is. 

  Revelation 20:12   And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The book of life is also opened in the 2nd judgement.  It's not closed, so there is hope for some, judged differently according to their 'works'. 

Quote

The second resurrection will be 1,000 years after the first, per Rev 20:4-6.  And the Bible is clear that there are only 2 resurrections, one for the saved and one for the unsaved.  By the end of the MK, ALL unbelievers will have been killed.  And then resurrected back into their mortal bodies to attend the GWT judgment, and then cast into the LOF, which is also called the "second death".  Becuase their resurrected but still mortal body will DIE AGAIN.

If there is a 'first resurrection' mentioned, then there should be another one to follow?

  Revelation 20:5   But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
 

Quote

The MK will certainly include the mortals and immortals.  The mortals will be all the surviving unbelievers from the Tribulation.  The immortals will be all believers, who were resurrected "when He comes" back at the Second Advent. 

Right.  And the remnant of Israel from the past.  Raised in their flesh (not raised to spirit) Ezekiel chapter 37.

Quote

And the immortals will be reigning with, or serving the King during the MK.

Yes.

Quote

There is no indication that there will be any mortal believers in the MK.

?

Edited February 5, 2023 by Sister

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

The sounding of the last trump is tangentially relevant to the discussion of "Who is Resurrected, and When?" 'When' is not only which resurrection but when that particular resurrection occurs in relation to other events.

One of those other events being the 6th seal, 7th trump and, if it's the first or second resurrection.

This thread isn't really about defining whether one is immortal or not and if their resurrection status depends on mortal/immortal or not. 

That is clearly a whole 'nother topic. 

All I want to do is stay on topic. Seems reasonable since I did start the topic. 

Shalom, Diaste.

It may SEEM to be off-topic, but a discussion on WHAT the Resurrection is is FUNDAMENTAL to the ideas of who participates and when. Can't get the cart before the horse.